I've been reading alot about the veiw of prophets in judaism and I find it amazing how the stories are almost exactly the same.
We believe that the jews began to worship the golden cow after they escaped the egypt, its exactly the same in jewish scriptures
Worship of the Golden Calf.
The Torah was intended originally only for Moses and his descendants; but he was liberal enough to give it to the people of Israel, and God approved the gift (Ned. 38a). According to another version, God gave the Torah to the Israelites for Moses' sake (Ex. R. xlvii. 14). Moses' burnt tongue was healed when he received the Law (Deut. R. i. 1). As Moses was writing down the Torah, he, on reaching the passage "Let us make man" (Gen. i. 26), said to God, "Why dost thou give the Minim the opportunity of construing these words to mean a plurality of gods?" whereupon God replied: "Let those err that will" (Gen. R. viii. 7). When Moses saw God write the words "erek appayim" (= "long-suffering"; Ex. xxxiv. 6), and asked whether God was long-suffering toward the pious only, God answered, "Toward sinners also." When Moses said that sinners ought to perish, God answered, "You yourself will soon ask me to be long-suffering toward sinners" (Sanh. 111a). This happened soon after Israel had made the golden calf (ib.). Before Moses ascended to heaven he said that he would descend on the forenoon of the forty-first day. On that day Satan confused the world so that it appeared to be afternoon to the Israelites. Satan told them that Moses had died, and was thus prevented from punctually fulfilling his promise. He showed them a form resembling Moses suspended in the air, whereupon the people made the golden calf (Shab. 89a; Ex. R. lxi.). When, in consequence of this, Moses was obliged to descend from heaven (Ex. xxxii. 7), he saw the angels of destruction, who were ready todestroy him. He was afraid of them; for he had lost his power over the angels when the people made the golden calf. God, however, protected him (Ex. R. xli. 12). When Moses came down with the tables and saw the calf (Ex. xxxii. 15-20), he said to himself: "If I now give to the people the tables, on which the interdiction against idolatry is written (Ex. xx. 2-5), they will deserve death for having made and worshiped the golden calf." In compassion for the Israelites he broke the tables, in order that they might not be held responsible for having transgressed the command against idolatry (Ab. R. N. ii.). Moses now began to pray for the people, showing thereby his heroic, unselfish love for them. Gathering from the words "Let me" (Ex. xxxii. 10) that Israel's fate depended on him and his prayer, he began to defend them (Ber. 32a; Meg. 24a). He said that Israel, having been sojourning in Egypt, where idolatry flourished, had become accustomed to this kind of worship, and could not easily be brought to desist from it (Yalḳ., Ki Tissa, 397). Moreover, God Himself had afforded the people the means of making the golden calf, since he had given them much gold and silver (Ber. l.c.). Furthermore, God had not forbidden Israel to practise idolatry, for the singular and not the plural was used in Ex. xx. 2-5, referring, therefore, only to Moses (Ex. R. xlvii. 14).
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Why would I deny it? I don't deny anything written in God's word. I believe that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16) and by "All scripture" I include in my personal beliefs: the Qur'an, the Bible (Torah, Tanakh, NT), and even many books omitted from the current Bible (not limited to the Aprocrypha)..... but that is another topic all together.
What I do not accept or include are pagan texts, texts of non-Abrahamic religions, etc. That is why I stated that I dislike the site that is linked to in the first post. It uses such a wide variety of sources as its references that I would never refer to it at all if I wanted to study Jewish beliefs or thought.
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I don't know why you would or wouldn't, I asked merely because the topic was specific to the worship of the golden calf and not some other ancillary topic the likes you mentioned..
I am not personally sure how you can sort between 'inspired by god' or the 'works of men' and I doubt that all the books 'so inspired' can pass such an inspection!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I must have misunderstood the topic then. I did not realize it was specific to the golden calf. I thought the topic was on "similarities" and the prophets and stories. I understood the story of the golden calf to be an example, not the sole topic. Aadil said, "I've been reading alot about the veiw of prophets in judaism and I find it amazing how the stories are almost exactly the same." and then he went on to give the golden calf story as an example. At least that was my understanding. Since he was talking about reading about the prophets and Judaism and the stories, and then he gave a website, I was only pointing out why I felt that website was a poor one, because it uses sources that are way outside of Judaism and I suggested that Jewish websites might be better.
we have no reason to pre-suppose that the site is a poor one whether or not the focus is on a specific article of similarity or articles of similarities.. I think the question is rather a Jewish one for they know best their own religion.. I wouldn't for instance think that the concept of 'reincarnation' is a Jewish one, to me in my mind it is a pagan one, yet many Jews I have spoken with believe in reincarnation .. so how can we judge what is purely Judaic and what is not merely for references to a site that you consider shady but so far the couple of articles I have seen from them are not negated by any party be they Jews/christians or Muslims.. well perhaps the previous article I have read was rendered ineffective by our dear member Hugo but for no apparently good historical reason that he could personally support--merely that it didn't agree with his biblical beliefs!
I am not putting down the other sites you have enclosed either, I just don't know how you personally sort through them and classify something as more credible than another..
all the best
Last edited by جوري; 05-03-2010 at 04:17 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Nevermind........ I am not trying to start arguments or derail the thread.......... someone can delete my posts here if they like. I know that portions were quoted by The Vale's Lily, and that is fine, or she can delete those also if she likes. Anything not quoted is gone anyhow. Sorry.
Last edited by PouringRain; 05-03-2010 at 05:48 AM.
Thank you for your PM 'pouring rain'
I don't perceive this as an 'argument' merely two people putting their opinion down, I see no reason whatsoever to delete the posts, but that is up to you!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
There are very few differences between Islam and Judaism. It really is only about the prophets.
Yh jews don't consider many of our prophets as prophets
do they belive prophet Lut commited incest, like christians?
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
All I know about the story of Lut is that his wife was turned into a pillar because she looked back at the burning city. Also, we learn how great a man Abraham was. Is this story in the Quran, that Abraham pleaded with God to spare the city if He could find a number of good people? It started with a hundred good people and God said, "I will spare the city for the sake of the hundred." And He couldn't find that many. Abraham pleaded all the way down to ten people and that is when God said that He wouldn't spare the city for the sake of the ten, but he will spare the ten.
As for the prophets, we do not consider Jesus one. I personally am not sure. With Muhammad, I think it's mixed feelings for mainstream Jews, but I personally think he was a prophet. The Jews don't consider David or Solomon as prophets, but as great kings. I seem to remember reading that there were other prophets at t he time.
All I know about the story of Lut is that his wife was turned into a pillar because she looked back at the burning city. Also, we learn how great a man Abraham was. Is this story in the Quran, that Abraham pleaded with God to spare the city if He could find a number of good people? It started with a hundred good people and God said, "I will spare the city for the sake of the hundred." And He couldn't find that many. Abraham pleaded all the way down to ten people and that is when God said that He wouldn't spare the city for the sake of the ten, but he will spare the ten.
As for the prophets, we do not consider Jesus one. I personally am not sure. With Muhammad, I think it's mixed feelings for mainstream Jews, but I personally think he was a prophet. The Jews don't consider David or Solomon as prophets, but as great kings. I seem to remember reading that there were other prophets at t he time.
About prophet Luts wife yes stayed behind to be destoyed with the rest of the people
hmm we also consider prophet sulaiman and prophet davud as kings, but they were also prophets as they spread the message of Allah
The story of prophet Ibrahim is pretty much the same I think, He grew up pondering about god, he disliked the fact that his people worshipped idols, so one day he destroyed all their idols accept for one.... read on its one of my favourite stories
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Islam is another title of those who submit to Allah, while Judaism was derived from Yahuda the name of a father of a tribe from Israelite nation. Musa (as) and Haroun (as) were both from the family of Lawi (Levites), they're not Yahudi. Yahudi are those like Dawud, Sulaiman, and Isa (ahms). Muslim consider both Davud n Sulaiman as prophets and kings. Every prophet are the king if not physical kings, they are still the king who leads people to spirituality. Prophet Muhammad (saw) was once offered by Allah to be a prophet king or a prophet layman, but he chose to be humble, which is to be a layman and bearing the suffers for the sake of Allah.
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Why would I deny it? I don't deny anything written in God's word. I believe that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16) and by "All scripture" I include in my personal beliefs: the Qur'an, the Bible (Torah, Tanakh, NT), and even many books omitted from the current Bible (not limited to the Aprocrypha)..... but that is another topic all together.
read on its one of my favourite stories
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