I know in Western counties like America, Britan and Canada we have Talib al ilm (students of knowledge) who were trained in Mid East or North Africa.
What I would like to know is after all these years of Western muslims being trained in the Mid East and Africa has any of them reached a level high enough to be considered a scholar?
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
no I don't think there are any proper proper scholars
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
As you can see the answer very much depends on your definition of a scholar. The first brother tells there are many scholars and the next tells you there are none. So how would you define a scholar in your understanding?
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
I agree we have to know what is being defined as a scholar. We also need to keep in mind there are many areas of study and no one person is going to be a master of all. We have different realms such as Islamic Jurisprudence, Science of Hadith, Qur'anic studiies, and numerous more areas. We need to seek out the "experts" in each area and understand no scholar is going to be proficient in areas beyond his area of expertise. You would not go to a neuro-surgeon to have your shoe repaired. Seek a scholar knowledgable in the facet of Islam you seek clarification about and you will find there are numerous scholars world wide.
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
I really don't know if the Western countries have produced any qualified scholars. Because it takes a lifetime to really gain enough knowledge in all the Islamic sciences.
Western muslims have many Students of Knowledge who have been trained by knowledgable scholars in the Mid east. I guess the scholars in the Mid east and Africa and Asia have had hundreds of years to build up strong organizations that can support the works of scholars.
America and Britan and Canada and the Carribean muslims need more time to build up our schools and charities.
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
format_quote Originally Posted by jayrag123
I really don't know if the Western countries have produced any qualified scholars. Because it takes a lifetime to really gain enough knowledge in all the Islamic sciences.
Western muslims have many Students of Knowledge who have been trained by knowledgable scholars in the Mid east. I guess the scholars in the Mid east and Africa and Asia have had hundreds of years to build up strong organizations that can support the works of scholars.
America and Britan and Canada and the Carribean muslims need more time to build up our schools and charities.
in sha allah
It seems as though you have labelled certain individuals as students of knowledge and not Shuyookh of Islaam all by yourself! Are anyone of us qualified to even comment on such a matter? I don't think so.
‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
Salaam
what about Zaytuna in america.
peace
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
It seems as though you have labelled certain individuals as students of knowledge and not Shuyookh of Islaam all by yourself! Are anyone of us qualified to even comment on such a matter? I don't think so.
Dear brother , even sheikh would be too much for our brothers the students of knowledge there in the west , shoukh of islaam is way too much.
No way there are any shoyoukh of islaam in the west.
it does depend on what madhab and methodology u follow , but as far as the salafis go , ahuls sunnah wal jammah , there are NO scholars of salafi manhaj in the west.
And like u said who are we to call some one a student of knowledge while he can be a shikeh from the shoukh of islaam, let me ask u can we call some one a sheikh of islam on our own? who are we to call some one sheikh or sheikh of islaam just like we cannot call any one student of knowledge?
This mean there has to be a higher authority who can decide who is a scholar and who is a student of knwoeldge
that would be the great and big scholars of middle east like saudi arabia n yemen n others.
So akhee if a scholatr says such and such person in the west is an AALIM / scholr then we take it from him and say such and such has praised this person and recommeded hima nd said he is an alim , If not then we are in no way authorised to call some one a scholar.
which alos mean that if none of the kibaar al ulama have said such and such person is a scholar then they all reamin students of knowledge , even though the mashaikh might recommed them and praise them and advise us to seek knowledge with them , they still do not become scholars or shoukh of islaam unless a scholar clearly says such and such person is an alim.
i leave u with a few quotes
Here is the great sheikh and muhhadith of madeenah Sheikh abdul muhsin al abbad may Allah protect him
"Advising students of the Islaamic University of al-Madeenah, Shaykh 'Abdul-Muhsin al-'Abbaad (may Allaah preserve him) said:" "Real talab al-'ilm (seeking knowledge) begins after graduation, and thus a student of Islaamic knowledge should consider himself a beginner in seeking knowledge, since studying in Islaamic colleges does not turn him into a scholar, rather it only gives him the keys that allow him to expand his search of knowledge and follow up on it"
And i personally do not consider any one graduatiing from an islamic university a scholar , rather a student of knwoledge just liek the sheikh has explained.
other madahib and methodologies might not look at it in this way and have courses for alims , and alimahs , and after u go through that course u become an alim. subhanAllah.
And the great Imam from yemen , Sheikh muqbil bin hadi al wadiee about whom sheikh ibnu uthaimeen said" tell him that i condider him(muqbil) to be a mujadid!
Sheikh muqbil bin hadi al wadiee said:"How many people have doctorates in Fiqh and understand nothing, how many have doctorates in Hadeeth and don't understand one Hadeeth, for these certificates give creditation to many people to take certain positions which they do not deserve, and how does the title Dr help you when are are ignorant about the Shariah of Allah?"
So definettly when u ask are there any scholars in the west ,
the answer is depends on what madhab and manhaj u follow , and if u are a salafi then the very true and clear answer is there are NO SCHOLARS in the west.
And also calling some one a student of knowledge does not in any way degrade him , coz scholars themselfes stay students of knowledge all their lifes.
Here is a Quote from sheikh zayd bin hadi
Socially Relevant Verdicts for Muslims in the West - Shaykh Zayd Al-Madkhalee
6. When is a person called a student of knowledge?
Answer: He is called a student of knowledge if he seeks knowledge. When he starts seeking knowledge hes a student of knowledge. The person who is a beginner, an intermediate, advanced Mujhtahid are all students of knowledge. Everybody who treads a path in order to gain knowledge is a student of knowledge. The word student of knowledge is an honourable title. Knowledge is inherited from the Prophets and whoever seeks it seeks the most valuable inheritance. This inheritance is the legacy of the prophets and messengers. The student of knowledge has no final point. Every time the scholar acquires knowledge he realizes he needs more than what he possesses. And for that reason whenever the student of knowledge ages and becomes firm in knowledge, he realizes that he will never have a need to stop seeking knowledge. Allah says, Say oh my Lord increase me in knowledge.
end of quote
barak Allahu feekum
assalam o alikum
Last edited by brotherubaid; 08-04-2010 at 10:13 PM.
How perfect You are O Allaah, and I praise You. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You. I seek Your forgiveness and turn to You in repentance
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
^ Then brother, why are you making the distinction yourself? You are saying categorically that there are no scholars in the west (I disagree with you), and that there are only taalib al-'ilm (seekers of knowledge). Yet at the same time, you say the two are the same thing and the terms can be used interchangeably. Is knowledge and scholarship only present in Saudi Arabia and Yemen? Brother, please don't be that naive.
‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
This topic shows different opinions, but one doesn't have to be wrong for another to be right. Scholar by definition is a student. Keep in mind that no human being can have absolute knowledge; the best anyone can do is continue to develop on their knowledge by the grace of Allah.
(20:114) So high [above all] is Allah , the Sovereign, the Truth. And, [O Muhammad], do not hasten with [recitation of] the Qur'an before its revelation is completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase me in knowledge."
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
^ Then brother, why are you making the distinction yourself? You are saying categorically that there are no scholars in the west (I disagree with you), and that there are only taalib al-'ilm (seekers of knowledge). Yet at the same time, you say the two are the same thing and the terms can be used interchangeably. Is knowledge and scholarship only present in Saudi Arabia and Yemen? Brother, please don't be that naive.
I have not made any distinction , scholars have said that there are no scholar in the west akhi
Also can u name a few whom u consider to be scholars in the west?
Liek i said , in ahnaaf and deo bandis n shafies there might be some whom are considered as scholars , but as far as salafi manhaj goes there are no scholars in the west.
My last quote of sheikh zayd bin hadi probably confused u , i only posted that to make one point that saying such and such person is a student of knowledge does not necessarily degrade that person.
Let me get somethings clear
A scholar always remains a student of knowledge , but a student of knowldge is not necesserily a scholar until he has reached solid ground in diffrent religious sciences and most importantly how much he achieves as a student f knowlede and his efforts n all ,until he reaches the status of a scholar, and even more importantly IF a senior scholar WITNESSES for him the ILM , i-e praises him to be a scholar and say that such and such person is an ALIM.
Is this point clear, now can u tell me akhe which scholar has said that such and such person in the west is a scholar?
SECOND i never said student of knowledge n scholar is the same thing and can be interchanged , No akhe like i said earlier my last quote of sheikh zayd probably confused u, it was meant to prove the point that calling some one a student of knowlledge does not degrade him, rather its the just and honest thing to do. And even students of knowledge have degrees , one can be a beginner and one can be on other higher levels.
You never commented on the quotes of sheikh abdul mohsin al abbad and sheikh muqbil by the way
Third point:
I never said that knowledge n scholarship is in saudi arabia n yemen , u have seem to got everything wrong in my reply subhanAllah , i said" Scholar of middleeast , saudi yemen n OTHERS!" yet u read it as scholars n scholarship are ONLY in saudi n Yemen , what happend to Middle east that i mentioned and also the OTHERS that i mentioned , u couldnt have missed that akhee barak Allahu feek.
The major scholars are present in saudi arabian other parts of middleeast , and before i mention them i must bring ur attention to the fact that i am only talking on the basis of salafi manhaj , my whole post was about salafi manhaj, im not speaking of others , as far as salafis go can u tell me if there are bigger n more senior scholars in other parts of the world than saudi arabia? speaking collectively is there any country whose scholars are more senior than saudi arabia , Ghudayaan just passed away but still Aal al sheikh , fawzan , abdul mohsin al abbad n all the scholars of the permamant commitee of fatawa n Hayah Kibbar al ulama n all, apart from them other great scholars of makkah madinah n riyadh!.
Same thing with yemen and egypt and jordan and kuwait n OTHERS
Ya akhee the senior and big scholars are well known , now can you tell me which scholar praises which person in the west to be a scholar?
That to me will be the deciding authority if someone in the west is of the status of a scholar.
How perfect You are O Allaah, and I praise You. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You. I seek Your forgiveness and turn to You in repentance
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
Salaam
Other places where there is scholarship in mid east/africa - Al Azhar university and Al Kourine in Morroco.
By the way isnt a scholar a person who actually has Ijazh to teach a specific subjects like hadith, tafsir other sources of Islamic knowledge?
peace
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
If you wanted to narrow your definition of a scholar to how you understand the "salafi manhaj" then you should said that earlier on. You said categorically that there are no scholars in the west, when we have scholars such as Shaykh Kehlan al-Jubury, Shaykh Haitham al-Haddad and many others.
When did it become convention for scholars in the middle east to praise and certify individuals before those individuals can be recognised for their knowledge and scholarship. Allahu 'Alam. If this is the deciding factor for you, then so be it. What happened to the humility surrounding knowledge?
(20:114) 'So high [above all] is Allah , the Sovereign, the Truth. And, [O Muhammad], do not hasten with [recitation of] the Qur'an before its revelation is completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase me in knowledge."'
‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
I agree with brother ubaid. I think first of all, a scholar advises muslims not to live in place where there is fitnah. Why would a scholar live in west? Where the fitnah level is up to your neck. There are few "scholars" in USA. But even they dont like to be called scholars. They were studens of Sheikh Ibn Baz(rahima hullah) and other a'immah. Sheikh Salah as-sawy(American open university) had ijaazah in giving fatwas in usa for regarding some issues, a student of shiekh salah told me. But even Sheikh salah lives 6months in Makkah to teach. Allah knows the best.
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
Akhee banu hashim , when i read your replies it seems that u have either NOT read my post or just went through it paying no attention whatsoever , coz ur answers make no sense whatsoever.
I made it very clear that i was speaking of salafi manhaj and that there are no salafi scholars in the west. that i made clear in my first post and again in teh second one.
Only a Senior scholar from the middleast and arab countries for example can praise some one to be a scholar, yes it is a condition coz for that Individual in the west could NOT have in anyway become a student of knowledge or a sheikh/scholar without travellig to arab lands or being in arab lands while studying under these great scholars and seeking their knowledge and doing their research.
U cannot say that any scholars who are in the west became scholars in the west can u?
They were obviously here for studies and later moved there or if they were born n raised there they moved to these lands to get their knowledge.
And u say" When did it become convention for scholars in the middle east to praise and certify individuals before those individuals can be recognised for their knowledge and scholarship"
Akhe none of the senior scholars certify or praise some one to be a scholar before those individuals are recognised for their knwoledge and scholarship, subhanAllah i dodnt even know how u got to that , when a scholar does certify or praise some one and clearly say such and such person is a alim it is based on a lot of things , He sees and knows whom he studied under and how much did he benefit and how much his understanding of the deen is and even more than that how good his aqeedah and manhaj is and how is his adherence to the sunnah. I mean its basicaly based on a lot of things , ONLY afer that a scholar praises some one to be a scholar, If no one has such tazkiyah then i cannot consider him a scholar , who am i and you brother to declare people to be scholars , nor can residents of the west from their students can call their teacher a scholar , only someone higher in status and knowlede than him can call him a scholar and certify him based on his knowledge.
and humility is always there , i dont know what u mean by what happeed to the humility surrounding knowledge, a case of humility being gone would be if a person himself claims to be a scholar , and even when a scholar clearly praise individuals to be scholars they still have humility and say we are just students of knowledge.
Ibn baaz praised saalih al suhaymee and recommeded that one should seek knowledgle from him and yet he even recently denies that and says he is just a small student of knowldge and knowledge is to be taken from the senior scholars i have the audio to show u. dont knwo why and for what reason u had o bring the humility in for.
any way this is not going to go any where. because u clearly do not read my posts through or just skim through it and leave replies that make no sense whatsoever
Last edited by brotherubaid; 08-05-2010 at 10:59 AM.
How perfect You are O Allaah, and I praise You. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You. I seek Your forgiveness and turn to You in repentance
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
It is more important now than ever for scholars to live in the west for the very reason you gave. There is more fitnah in the west for Muslims than in other places, therefore the Muslims in the west need sound advice and leadership by Muslim Scholars to help them stay on the straight path inshaAllah.
‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
brotherubaid, I think it's best to leave this issue as clearly you don't understand where I'm coming from.
Fee Amaanillah.
‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)
Re: Does America, Britan or Canada have any SCHOLARS ?
Yes akhee its not getting anywhere.
But i will leave u with some advise as a brother.
I do not know if u are a salafi or not, but all my replies were based on salafi perspective.
As far as salafis go , there are no salafi scholars in the west.
And this is not something I am concludin or saying , its the words of the great and senior scholars.
If u want to further clarify it i guess its best to take the matter to those who are qualified to speak on this issue.
If u are a salafi then there is no doubt that Sheikh salih al fawzan and abdul mohsin al abbad and abdul aziz aal al sheikh n salih al luhaidan n others are from the most senior scholars, lets take one of them and take a non disputed personality , for example sheikh salih al fawzaan , Now teh right thing woudl be to call the sheikh and ask him teh simpple question.
Ya sheikh , are there any scholars in the west , and InshahAllah u will get your answer , NOt from Me, not from your own thinking n yourself , rather from a person much higher in status then us , much higher in status then the Individuals u mentioned , Much higer in knowledge n fadhl n status in everyway.
Its takes a lot to become a scholar , and to be very honest the scholars in our times are very few, may Allah protect them.
I will also suggest u to stick to the scholars and to stay with the scholars and benefit from them as much as you can , coz iwth technology its easy for peopel all over the world to seek knowledge from the scholars from live lessons broadcasted live on internet.
Being with scholars n sticking to them is better n more beneficial n SAFER for u InshahAllah , U will be in safe hands , its safe for ur deen , ur knowledge n your hereafter more than everything.
And i do not think u will disagree with this , the brothers u mention , may Allah protect them and increase them in knowledge , but honestly they do not in any way compare to the senior scholars present amongst us liek the ones i mentioned n many many many others. So give me fawzan , luhaidan , ar rajhi , Aal al sheikh al abbad , ubaid al jabri , abdullah al bukhari , rabee bin hadi , muhamad bin hadi , yaha al hajoore , abdul rahman al adani , waseeullah abbas n others any day , bro i will take them over the ones u mentioned n others any day akhee , given the choice im sure u will go for them too, if not theni Much rather get my knowledge from the ones i mentioned then the ones u mentioned coz there is just no comparison what so ever between them.
Also saying there are schlars in the west is , this claim is a really dangerous one and has great consequences , the most important of them is that iy cuts people in the west off from the scholars. And i mean the senior scholars in the middleeast. This claim disconnects the general Muslim from the Scholars.breaking the link between the Muslim and the 'Inheritor of the Prophet', a deadly misguidance which kept many away from the clarity of the scholars, in effect, disconnecting them from the Sunnah and the sources of the Sunnah (the scholars).
U can also listen to these benificial talks all by our brother abu uwais abdullah ali rahimahullah a student of knowledge from the west.
I ALSO SUGGEST U TO READ THE bOOK by IBN ABDUL BAR " JAMI BAYAN AL ILM WA FADHLEH"جامع بيان العلم و فضله ابن عبد البر
There are NO salafi scholars in the west , this is a fact and the scholars are in agreement with this statement , yes there are many great students of knwoeldge of diffrent calibers who are doinga lot of good work , teaching and giving dawah and CONNECTING THE MUSLIMS WITH TEH SCHOLARS.
Assalam O Alikum
How perfect You are O Allaah, and I praise You. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You. I seek Your forgiveness and turn to You in repentance
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