They ask to see proof that Allah exists (when already explained about test in Show me, show me, but we're humans-now in h-n reflection thread) BUT they have shown that when they have seen something, they are biased and still being ignorant.
For example
1. Crop Circles
They have seen crop circles and cannot still agree to what caused them.
2. UFOs
Also there are plenty of UFO sightings, BUT they claim that the photos of some are something else, so they refuse to accept what is in the photograph which they agree some are genuine, but still have not agreed to what the photograph is of, whether it be a UFO or not. Calling people liars, when people have not considered the evidence, of course not all people who claim to have seen UFOs are uneducated etc, there is no need to call people liars, and if they have seen something else, then you should be able to confirm by now what those are.
SO why don't the Atheists tell us here of what they have done with the above two issues, on 100% tell us of what is going on (not 60% on one sided argument and 40% on the other, but what has been really going on 100% of the above two) in both of those issues.
Of course surely after what you have seen, you should be able to tell us what are behind those two issues. IF YOU CANNOT SAY 100% OF WHAT CAUSES THEM, DO YOU NEED TO SEE ANOTHER CROP CIRCLE/UFO? Of course not as they have received so many.
As we only live here for a short amount of time, and they certainly have had plenty of time to look at the issues. You say you only believe what you see, then surely you should be able to tell us 100% what they are (when we believe that Devils are accountable as per the "Devils" thread).
So instead of wasting time asking to see something else, show us what you have already done with what you have already seen (what is the point of asking for something else, when you have already ignored what you have already seen, including signs everyday of rainfall etc). I believe that Scientists have proven they are biased, for example in their hypothesis they choose to ignore that Devils are involved, now they show an image of being imparitial, but they already choose to ignore the issue of Devils existing.
Even look at what happened with Stephen Hawking incident, he recently said that the Universe had always existed. Where other Atheists had rejected, but why did they reject this? They claim that Stephen Hawking is intelligent (when intelligent is about saving yourselves from Hell), but what is there problem with him now, are they going to say find another Scientist to say he is more intelligent then Stephen Hawking to counteract an argument that the Universe had not always existed?? They have proven that they don't read on Science (and as per "No such things as Atheism"), they choose to side with anyone and anything that rejects the truth of Islam. They have shown how biased they are. Yes, they don't have to listen to anyone, but they chose to go against him because they did not have the desired conclusion so already being biased on what they are after and not the truth.
DO NOT DERAIL BY TALKING ABOUT HOW SCIENCE WORKS ETC, JUST ANSWER WHAT 100% CONCLUSION YOU HAVE COME TO WITH THE ABOVE TWO EXAMPLES.
Crop circles have been proven to be a hoax. Only a few random wackos still believe that aliens caused them, especially since the men who made the first crop circles have admitted to it along with those who made many others.
UFO's are a variety of things.
I don't understand your logic here or exactly what point you are trying to make.
After all, even if I said I had no idea what caused crop circles how would that in any way lead me to become a Muslim?
Crop circles have been proven to be a hoax. Only a few random wackos still believe that aliens caused them, especially since the men who made the first crop circles have admitted to it along with those who made many others.
UFO's are a variety of things.
I don't understand your logic here or exactly what point you are trying to make.
After all, even if I said I had no idea what caused crop circles how would that in any way lead me to become a Muslim?
She attempts to make an analogy between people's (read: atheist's) skepticism towards UFO's & Crop Circles and their saying on the position of Iblis*. From that she attempts to show their hypocrisy.
*From another thread some atheist member post the difference between their position and Iblis'. On account that Iblis has already seen God and interacted with him (probably still does so), so Iblis does not believe in God, instead he knows him. And thus the difference between atheists and Iblis. Atheists claim that if they see and interact with God(just like believers will do in Judgement Day), then they will believe/know. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the last sentence.)
Last edited by Al-Indunisiy; 10-10-2010 at 07:42 AM.
Nihil deus nisi Allah, Muchammad est Nuntius Allahi.
Timeo quod: mea voluntas pro pace inter hominibus possit ferre me a Gehennam.
Thanks for showing that Atheists just brush off anything, that shows yes their hypocrisy, NO they haven't agreed to what causes crop circles which have also happened well in the past, yes some people were caught, but they still have not explained what causes plenty of others as well as UFOs.
Yes this is about Atheists wanting to have proof before they believe, but they have already been shown that even when they see something (they haven't even looked into crop circles, UFOs properly studying the issues, just brushing over the issue), they still with their ignorance brush it off, no matter how interesting issues have been, no matter how many times they have shown themselves, as they are too engrossed with how they want the life to be, they do not look at issues with an unbiased prespective. How poor in their being and responses. How pathetic they claim to be thinkers, when they are unintelligent.
Iblis does not have interaction with Allah, but does seek information from those in high stations.
Anyhow taking a break, hopefully others can see that Atheists are just liars, liars and liars, who Allah has stated reject the truth.
they haven't even looked into crop circles, UFOs properly studying the issues, just brushing over the issue
Whereas all muslims, of course, have made in depth studies of those vital issues that are far too important to living a good, happy and informed life to just 'brush over'?!
"they do not look at issues with an unbiased perspective"
Whereas, of course, you do? Excuse me while I collapse laughing...
How poor in their being and responses. How pathetic they claim to be thinkers, when they are unintelligent.
Because they disagree with the cogitations of your towering intellect? I hate to burst your arrogance bubble but the dfferences between theists and atheists are in beliefs and opinions, not intelligence.
Whereas all muslims, of course, have made in depth studies of those vital issues that are far too important to living a good, happy and informed life to just 'brush over'?!
Whereas, of course, you do? Excuse me while I collapse laughing...
Because they disagree with the cogitations of your towering intellect? I hate to burst your arrogance bubble but the dfferences between theists and atheists are in beliefs and opinions, not intelligence.
Post amended
Burst my bubble?? No, if you really had something to say, then you would have answered post 1!! What matter of fact conclusion have they come to.
Of course I live a lot better then you do (anyhow what is your problem with suffering as are you forgetting that is mentioned in Buddhism?), I have helped others, and as specified in another thread, I do not run a religious group and tell others not to live, I respect even my family members doing what they want in this world, but I am HERE to talk about Islam, in an Islamic website !! So of course your only going to see this one side (and not my personal life), of course your so unintelligent you haven't thought of that!!!
WE DO NOT Differentiate between the inhabitants of Hell-fire (whatever you want to call yourselves as)!! The test is one that Allah has set, to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell! You don't get different laws that you have to follow, so regardless of what you may think, if you don't think of what contains in the Quran you are plain stupid.
Allah sends you to one Hell, so if you do not repent, you will be going to the fires of Hell, with the likes of Pharaoh, Satan, and other non-Muslims.
Your not clever when you get thrown into Hell-fire, and see then, on the Day of Judgement were we both are, and you will only be saying that Islam is correct.
Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims, they have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!
Prophet Moses peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims,
have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!
Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims,
have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!
You have said NOTHING by your posts, and your only showing to people that you have NOTHING to say and that if you were alive at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him, you would have drowned with the rest of the sinners!
Buddhist are in error, full of idol worship, they say they don't worship a God, but happy to make idols and talk of many different Gods, the focus is on self-value, why look at yourselves more? Did you create yourself??? Surely why not look at who has created you and the Universe? They claim to be enlightened, but going to the Hell-fire. Who is going to save you from the fires of Hell? If they say there is God of the Universe?
They say they change into different forms and are cycles-then who changes you into the difference creatures??? If there is not God of the Universe to do that?? Just a FARCE!! You call yourself intelligent. Somebody's going to change you and your part of the Universe, because you sit there looking at your pitiful existance rather then as Muslims do look towards our Lord, the ONE.
Buddhist = self value, self worship when they cannot create their own food, make the rain fall, change their own form to another. So who is going to change your form? It magically happens? They don't worship the Lord of the Worlds, and someone else exists to be able to do that?? There is only one God, hence why the Universe runs so well.
You do NOT have anything to do with the rest of the Universe, typical just as Scientists (in the No such thing as Atheism thread) were looking at what the rest of the Universe means to them, rather then what saying it belongs to Allah.
I do NOT have anything to do with other planets, let alone this one, the trees, the fishes etc, how in error, and arrogance they truly are! How awful, if you were so connected to the Universe the Universe would not even be the way it is today, it would not even exist, the beauty of other planets, the stars, they worship Allah, the Lord of the Universe, the Master on the Day of Judgement.
Prophet Jesus peace be upon him -Buddhists do NOT have a Male better then him no wonder some are having to speak highly of him, but still in error when they do not repent and become Muslims. They rather talk a bit about him, but leave out the fact that everything he is, is because he was created by the one God, Allah!
Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him - Buddhists do NOT have a Male better then him.
DO NOT DERAIL BY TALKING ABOUT HOW SCIENCE WORKS ETC, JUST ANSWER WHAT 100% CONCLUSION YOU HAVE COME TO WITH THE ABOVE TWO EXAMPLES.
If you want a 100% answer to what UFOs are, without any mention of the scientific process of elimination, then the only answer I can confidently give you is:
UnidentifiedFlyingObject
-------------
The problem is, there is no 100% answer currently available to that sort of question - and I think you know that.
Tell me - what is it, exactly, you're hoping to achieve by asking that?
You see, if you're not sure of the process by which a set of ideas begets a theory; what a theory actually is and how one can evolve with time - then it's likely you won't understand why or how scientists could disagree. Is that something you would like help to understand? If so, I will do my best to help, but not if I am going to be accused of 'derailing a thread' by merely explaining the basis of your problem.
Perhaps I should amend that, by asking: how do you envision a 100% explanation for UFOs and crop circles is going to help you with the question of whether god exists or not?
She attempts to make an analogy between people's (read: atheist's) skepticism towards UFO's & Crop Circles and their saying on the position of Iblis*. From that she attempts to show their hypocrisy.
Oh, so that's what it is! Well, it's certainly an attempt. One which I would have to give an 'e' for effort.
*From another thread some atheist member post the difference between their position and Iblis'. On account that Iblis has already seen God and interacted with him (probably still does so), so Iblis does not believe in God, instead he knows him. And thus the difference between atheists and Iblis. Atheists claim that if they see and interact with God(just like believers will do in Judgement Day), then they will believe/know. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the last sentence.)
So what's the devil got to do with flying saucers? Is she trying to say they're related or something?
Just a quick aside. For me, its not just about a lack of evidence I would find compelling that makes me an atheist (though its a part of it), but also I don't find the definition or premise of most gods a compelling basis to explain how things are.
If you came to me with a definition of a god that seemed TO ME plausible, coherent in framework and was a better explanation to me of how the world worked than anything else, I would definitely give you the benefit of the doubt.
As for the OP, the problem would be that I don't really have to be 100% sure about something to dismiss it. You can't go around researching everything with 100% certainty (which would be the Truth, which is of course, unknowable) as it would be a waste of time. You start at the premise and if it sounds reasonable, you research the facts and evidence and then, based on your limited knowledge (as all knowledge is), you take your best shot. If new evidence or arguments emerge, you revisit your conclusion.
Crop Circles - No interest. Easily faked, so I don't care.
UFOs - A little more interesting. A lot of hoaxes or misunderstandings, plus from what I know of Interstellar travel, really unlikely.
Thanks.
Last edited by Gator; 10-12-2010 at 06:33 PM.
Reason: addition of more brilliant comments.
What I think she was saying, czgibson, is that atheists insist on being shown proof of God's existence and yet shy away from proof of other paranormal things. A rather sweeping blanket statement, at that (not to mention how much doubt there is for the veracity of crop circles and UFO sightings), but no more hateful or ignorant than any number I've seen from atheists.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 10-12-2010 at 08:54 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I think kind of statements don´t help anyone (who is not muslim yet), looking for more information about Islam:
hopefully others can see that Atheists are just liars, liars and liars, who Allah has stated reject the truth.
Before than I became muslim, I was atheist too but I was lucky when I didn´t meet muslims at that time whose would only repeat to me how big liar I was but just muslims whose were kindly and patient to tell me more about Islam, not just judge me at that time.
And sorry, also I am so unintelligence to get meaning of atheism and UFOs.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
What I think he was saying, czgibson, is that atheists insist on being shown proof of God's existence and yet shy away from proof of other paranormal things. A rather sweeping blanket statement, at that (not to mention how much doubt there is for the veracity of crop circles and UFO sightings), but no more hateful or ignorant than any number I've seen from atheists.
I think atheists ask for evidence of god's existence; demanding 'proof' would probably be asking too much. It may be true to say that many atheists tend to be sceptical about paranormal activity in a similar way to their being sceptical about god. Having said that, I can't see how the fact that atheists discount or disagree about the evidence for paranormal activity in relation to crop circles or UFO sightings makes it wrong (or stupid) of them to ask for evidence about god from theists.
The original poster's issue stems from the fact that believers and non-believers typically have different criteria for evaluating evidence. What I see as convincing evidence for natural selection may not convince you; the scripture that sets out your religious beliefs may not be convincing to me. There's no sense in calling each other stupid simply because we disagree. We should be happy to let each other to believe what we like, as long as we don't start hurting other people over it.
On your last point, I've seen plenty of hateful and ignorant comments from all sides over the years; I'm sure we can all agree that they help nobody. The trouble is, people often can't tell they're being hateful or ignorant until others point it out to them, and they may not respond positively to that message. And so it goes on...
I think atheists ask for evidence of god's existence; demanding 'proof' would probably be asking too much. It may be true to say that many atheists tend to be sceptical about paranormal activity in a similar way to their being sceptical about god.
More often than not, from what I've seen. Apparently it's just a mindset for most of them.
Having said that, I can't see how the fact that atheists discount or disagree about the evidence for paranormal activity in relation to crop circles or UFO sightings makes it wrong (or stupid) of them to ask for evidence about god from theists.
The OP, I think, was saying that they reject all the evidence available in one case while insisting on more of it in the other. I never said that I agreed.
The original poster's issue stems from the fact that believers and non-believers typically have different criteria for evaluating evidence. What I see as convincing evidence for natural selection may not convince you; the scripture that sets out your religious beliefs may not be convincing to me.
True (except that I have no problem with natural selection, though please let's not open up that hackneyed can of worms again). The only real problem is if anyone's particular idea of evidence is itself unreasonable, like a religious person using their own scripture as inherent proof of itself in a circular way instead of first starting with an external reason to believe it in the first place (you know, like evangelists toting 1 Timothy 3:16 as proof of the Bible's inerrancy), or atheists demanding scientific proof of a thing like God which could never ever be scientifically proven or disproven.
There's no sense in calling each other stupid simply because we disagree. We should be happy to let each other to believe what we like, as long as we don't start hurting other people over it.
If only more of us had that attitude.
On your last point, I've seen plenty of hateful and ignorant comments from all sides over the years; I'm sure we can all agree that they help nobody. The trouble is, people often can't tell they're being hateful or ignorant until others point it out to them, and they may not respond positively to that message. And so it goes on...
...until we have a message board on our hands. :P
EDIT: In all fairness to the OP, I have sometimes seen instances of skeptics apparently dismissing paranormal claims just on general principles and considering them hoaxes without showing any evidence for their own claim in turn. For instance, everywhere I've ever read about the phantom leaf phenomenon in skeptical literature it is just glossed over with a mere assertion that the pictures are faked.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 10-12-2010 at 09:20 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I think kind of statements don´t help anyone (who is not muslim yet), looking for more information about Islam:
Before than I became muslim, I was atheist too but I was lucky when I didn´t meet muslims at that time whose would only repeat to me how big liar I was but just muslims whose were kindly and patient to tell me more about Islam, not just judge me at that time.
And sorry, also I am so unintelligence to get meaning of atheism and UFOs.
Well you must not be following h-n's arguments closely then! You were never an atheist; you were just a liar before and when you converted to Islam you basically decided to not lie anymore about your disbelief in God. According to h-n
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
-Plato
I'm very glad to see not every muslim here is supportive of h-n's twisted logic. Following her posts, it appears she is here for the purposes of flaming and spreading hatred towards anything she perceives non-muslim. It's not a good example to be setting for her fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. I came here in the good faith we can all share a common ground of humanity and, owing to some of you, I'm not altogether dissapointed.
Well you must not be following h-n's arguments closely then! You were never an atheist; you were just a liar before and when you converted to Islam you basically decided to not lie anymore about your disbelief in God. According to h-n
Liar? Me? Ooops... So seems me too don´t understand kind of logical thinking. I better return to post and discuss only about Palestine and human right matters. They are more simple. There are bad guys and good guys, international laws and no UFOs.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
I believe that Scientists have proven they are biased, for example in their hypothesis they choose to ignore that Devils are involved, now they show an image of being imparitial, but they already choose to ignore the issue of Devils existing.
So seems me too don´t understand kind of logical thinking. I better return to post and discuss only about Palestine and human right matters. They are more simple. There are bad guys and good guys, international laws and no UFOs.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks