The following comes from another thread in which a portion of that thread was spent discussing Muslim responses to unIslamic acts committed in the name of Islam:
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
I thought it was a great question. Certainly a fair question. And therefore a question deserving of a response. I invite all non-Muslims who have an answer to that question to share it here.
But let us answer with things that can actually be done. We can't ask someone here to turn in Osama binLaden or solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I also ask that this not be turned into a thread to merely vent.
And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing. Don't assume that every person that does not praise Islam is therefore attacking Islam. None of us are perfect either as individuals or collectively. I believe the same could be said of our various religious histories in that even religions which are given to us by a perfect God are practiced by imperfect individuals. So, questions may arise about Islam that don't cast it in a favorable light. That they are asked is not to ignore that the same could be said about every other religion or philosophy known to man. But here the question that is being asked is what do non-Muslims want from Muslims. And to answer that question, the first thing we need is to be given a hearing.
The following comes from another thread in which a portion of that thread was spent discussing Muslim responses to unIslamic acts committed in the name of Islam:
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
I thought it was a great question. Certainly a fair question. And therefore a question deserving of a response. I invite all non-Muslims who have an answer to that question to share it here.
But let us answer with things that can actually be done. We can't ask someone here to turn in Osama binLaden or solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I also ask that this not be turned into a thread to merely vent.
And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing. Don't assume that every person that does not praise Islam is therefore attacking Islam. None of us are perfect either as individuals or collectively. I believe the same could be said of our various religious histories in that even religions which are given to us by a perfect God are practiced by imperfect individuals. So, questions may arise about Islam that don't cast it in a favorable light. That they are asked is not to ignore that the same could be said about every other religion or philosophy known to man. But here the question that is being asked is what do non-Muslims want from Muslims. And to answer that question, the first thing we need is to be given a hearing.
Please provide a thread and post link, to the quoted text.
The second thing that we want is more Muslims who represent their faith in the manner as did the Islamic community this past weekend in Portland, OR. For those who may not have heard the news an Oregon teen attempted to blow up a car bomb at a large Christmastree-lighting ceremony. The teen actually carried out his plans, but was thwarted because the bomb that he attempted to detonate was a fake he had actually obtained, not from co-conspirators, but from the FBI. Reports are the Muslim community in Portland assisted the FBI and issued a strong condemnation of the terrorist attempt.
As the father of the Iman at the mosque which the young man would occassionally attend said, that Mohamud was e-mailing someone in Pakistan shows nobody in the U.S. supported his extremist ideology. "He's reaching for people outside because he doesn't find any terrorists here." It might seem obvious and something that should go without saying, but we need to hear that as well.
And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing.
Okay, you've got it.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
But let us not rehash that which brought about the closing of that thread.
format_quote Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Okay, you've got it.
Thanks! You have always behaved on this forum in a way which causes me to believe that your truly do make a strong attempt to not just listen, but to actually hear before responding.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 11-29-2010 at 09:54 PM.
Why is he reaching for people outside the US? My guess is, because he's hoping someone from Iraq or Afganistan who has been war-torn because of the US/UK invasion, who's deeply influenced by this and has pure hatred set for these people would inevitably reply to him.
Just glad he got caught and didn't find anyone in the US.
Here's another thing that this particular non-Muslim wants. I want to be able to have a conversation on world politics without having the crusades thrown back in my face. I didn't participate in them. I don't know anyone who did participate in them. They have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all of western civilization and most definitely by Christians. Certainly, I've never heard anyone in my lifetime ever speak favorably of them.
^ Yes, but I think it is fine to use the crusades as an example. Using it as an example does not mean you participated in it or support it.
Did I post this before? o_O
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Here's another thing that this particular non-Muslim wants. I want to be able to have a conversation on world politics without having the crusades thrown back in my face. I didn't participate in them. I don't know anyone who did participate in them. They have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all of western civilization and most definitely by Christians. Certainly, I've never heard anyone in my lifetime ever speak favorably of them.
Your right, but niether did any Muslim on this board (that I'm aware of) particpate in 9/11, 7/7, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc etc.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Your right, but niether did any Muslim on this board (that I'm aware of) particpate in 9/11, 7/7, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc etc.
Agreed, though on rare occassions a person has shown up (and then usually disappeared) who did express support for them.
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Yes, but I think it is fine to use the crusades as an example.
An example of what? I guess I need to be educated.
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
agreed. it is a great example, especially as such a mentality still exists today
If that mentality still exists today (and I'm sorry to hear that you still encounter it), then please speak to that mentality directly. To refer to something that took place 500+ years ago, even if it is a good example, makes it very hard for me to identify what it is that you find objectionable today because my memory doesn't go back to those events.
Agreed, though on rare occassions a person has shown up (and then usually disappeared) who did express support for them.
Including people that support the Iraq , Afghan and anti palestine wars?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Including people that support the Iraq , Afghan and anti palestine wars?
I don't remember any who were anti-palestine. But, YES, to the rare individual Muslim who supported NATO forces in Afghanistan and US in Iraq. Though they certainly are NOT the same or as many as those who expressed support for 9/11 or 7/7 events. And many, by my way of counting, who have expressed support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-01-2010 at 02:54 PM.
Reason: left an important word -- NOT -- out when I first typed this, sort of changes the meaning
I don't remember any who were anti-palestine. But, YES, to the rare individual Muslim who supported NATO forces in Afghanistan and US in Iraq. Though they certainly are the same or as many as those who expressed support for 9/11 or 7/7 events. And many, by my way of counting, who have expressed support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
They might be many whose support USA acts in Iraq and Afghanistan and are non-muslims. I see kind of acts as crusades of our time, not just 500+ years before.
Yes yes for example I support Talibans and Hamas too, but I don´t see they have anything to do with any 9/11 or 7/7 happenings (I don´t even know what is 7/7).
Is it better if we stop totally keep here any kind of political discussions if it makes some of our sensitive non-muslim members feels themselves unfomfortable when they have to read what kind of crimes against humanity some non-muslims have done and are doing every single day? And discuss about Islam only?
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
To keep this short, history repeats itself but in a different shape and form.
Last edited by GuestFellow; 12-01-2010 at 04:08 PM.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Yes, I think you should. To keep this short, history repeats itself but in a different shape and form.
You're going to have to go longer in your explanation. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to Muslims making their case that there is a second crusade going on today. What you see as history repeating itself, I don't see. The motives, locations, and participants today are different.
Is it better if we stop totally keep here any kind of political discussions if it makes some of our sensitive non-muslim members feels themselves unfomfortable when they have to read what kind of crimes against humanity some non-muslims have done and are doing every single day? And discuss about Islam only?
No. How could you do this? Islam touches every aspect of a person's life.
But another thing that non-Muslims would like is to see Muslims be more attuned to differentiating between the actions of governments, culture, and individuals.
For example: It is often projected here that Christians are immoral, lovers of or personally involved in homosexuality, pedophilia, all sorts of pronography and other lewd behaviors simply because these things are seen through western media outlets. If non-Muslims are not to believe everything that the western media tells us about Muslims, please apply that same standard to not believing everything you see from the western media with respect to morality among western citizenry, and especially Christians.
Note: In citing the above example, I don't mean to imply that no Christians ever engage in any immoral acts, in fact none of us are perfect. But as a broad generalization it simply isn't true and would be a false stereotype.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-01-2010 at 04:54 PM.
Reason: added disclaimer notation
You're going to have to go longer in your explanation. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to Muslims making their case that there is a second crusade going on today. What you see as history repeating itself, I don't see. The motives, locations, and participants today are different.
Yes, go ahead and create a topic about it. For now, I hope your satisfied that when an event is raised in a discussion, it does not mean that you support it or participated in it.
But another thing that non-Muslims would like is to see Muslims be more attuned to differentiating between the actions of governments, culture, and individuals.
It will be done.
Last edited by GuestFellow; 12-01-2010 at 04:13 PM.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Let us try to stay on topic here. some of us have often asked what do Non-Muslims expect to gain from being members of this forum. Let us give them a chance to tell us why they are here. We may disagree with why some are here, but the least we can do is learn why they are here in their own words. There is no need to debate their reason. Just let them answer the question that was asked in the OP and let us also see what they expect from us.
We do not have to agree with each other, but we can all learn what we each expect from each other. Some things may even benefit all of us.
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
I just want to hear what Muslims, and others, think about different issues. That's all.
When I first started posting on a Muslim forum way back in the day I couldn't have even told you what "halal" meant. I have used such forums as tools to learn, and hopefully some Muslim have gleaned some bits of knowledge or insight from my posts also.
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The following comes from another thread in which a portion of that thread was spent discussing Muslim responses to unIslamic acts committed in the name of Islam:
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