Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

[Ramadhan]

I find the author of this article very modest in admitting that the US has indeed made mistakes after mistakes in the middle east and the fact that the US has killed millions of muslims, directly and indirectly. But at least it's a start.
I wished this guy had a column in a mainstream media like New York Times instead of crazy zionist like Thomas Friedman.

From http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/..._past_30_years

Posted By Stephen M. Walt Monday, November 30, 2009 - 5:38 PM



Tom Friedman had an especially fatuous column in Sunday's New York Times, which is saying something given his well-established capacity for smug self-assurance. According to Friedman, the big challenge we face in the Arab and Islamic world is "the Narrative" -- his patronizing term for Muslim views about America's supposedly negative role in the region. If Muslims weren't so irrational, he thinks, they would recognize that "U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny." He concedes that we made a few mistakes here and there (such as at Abu Ghraib), but the real problem is all those anti-American fairy tales that Muslims tell each other to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims."

Now I don't think the issue is quite that simple, but the comment got me thinking: How many Muslims has the United States killed in the past thirty years, and how many Americans have been killed by Muslims? Coming up with a precise answer to this question is probably impossible, but it is also not necessary, because the rough numbers are so clearly lopsided.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis, based on estimates deliberately chosen to favor the United States. Specifically, I have taken the low estimates of Muslim fatalities, along with much more reliable figures for U.S. deaths.



To repeat: I have deliberately selected "low-end" estimates for Muslim fatalities, so these figures present the "best case" for the United States. Even so, the United States has killed nearly 30 Muslims for every American lost. The real ratio is probably much higher, and a reasonable upper bound for Muslim fatalities (based mostly on higher estimates of "excess deaths" in Iraq due to the sanctions regime and the post-2003 occupation) is well over one million, equivalent to over 100 Muslim fatalities for every American lost.

Figures like these should be used with caution, of course, and several obvious caveats apply. To begin with, the United States is not solely responsible for some of those fatalities, most notably in the case of the "excess deaths" attributable to the U.N. sanctions regime against Iraq. Saddam Hussein clearly deserves much of the blame for these "excess deaths," insofar as he could have complied with Security Council resolutions and gotten the sanctions lifted or used the "oil for food" problem properly. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the United States (and the other SC members) knew that keeping the sanctions in place would cause tens of thousands of innocent people to die and we went ahead anyway.

Similarly, the United States is not solely to blame for the sectarian violence that engulfed Iraq after the 2003 invasion. U.S. forces killed many Iraqis, to be sure, but plenty of Shiites, Kurds, Sunnis, and foreign infiltrators were pulling triggers and planting bombs too. Yet it is still the case that the United States invaded a country that had not attacked us, dismantled its regime, and took hardly any precautions to prevent the (predictable) outbreak of violence. Having uncapped the volcano, we are hardly blameless, and that goes for pundits like Friedman who enthusiastically endorsed the original invasion.

Third, the fact that people died as a result of certain U.S. actions does not by itself mean that those policy decisions were wrong. I'm a realist, and I accept the unfortunate fact that international politics is a rough business and sometimes innocent people die as a result of actions that may in fact be justifiable. For example, I don't think it was wrong to expel Iraq from Kuwait in 1991 or to topple the Taliban in 2001. Nor do I think it was wrong to try to catch Bin Laden -- even though people died in the attempt -- and I would support similar efforts to capture him today even if it placed more people at risk. In other words, a full assessment of U.S. policy would have to weigh these regrettable costs against the alleged benefits to the United States itself or the international community as a whole.

Yet if you really want to know "why they hate us," the numbers presented above cannot be ignored. Even if we view these figures with skepticism and discount the numbers a lot, the fact remains that the United States has killed a very large number of Arab or Muslim individuals over the past three decades. Even though we had just cause and the right intentions in some cases (as in the first Gulf War), our actions were indefensible (maybe even criminal) in others.

It is also striking to observe that virtually all of the Muslim deaths were the direct or indirect consequence of official U.S. government policy. By contrast, most of the Americans killed by Muslims were the victims of non-state terrorist groups such as al Qaeda or the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans should also bear in mind that the figures reported above omit the Arabs and Muslims killed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Given our generous and unconditional support for Israel's policy towards the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular, Muslims rightly hold us partly responsible for those victims too.

Contrary to what Friedman thinks, our real problem isn't a fictitious Muslim "narrative" about America's role in the region; it is mostly the actual things we have been doing in recent years. To say that in no way justifies anti-American terrorism or absolves other societies of responsibility for their own mistakes or misdeeds. But the self-righteousness on display in Friedman's op-ed isn't just simplistic; it is actively harmful. Why? Because whitewashing our own misconduct makes it harder for Americans to figure out why their country is so unpopular and makes us less likely to consider different (and more effective) approaches.

Some degree of anti-Americanism may reflect ideology, distorted history, or a foreign government's attempt to shift blame onto others (a practice that all governments indulge in), but a lot of it is the inevitable result of policies that the American people have supported in the past. When you kill tens of thousands of people in other countries -- and sometimes for no good reason -- you shouldn't be surprised when people in those countries are enraged by this behavior and interested in revenge. After all, how did we react after September 11?

[GuestFellow]

It has not included Muslims killed in Pakistan. :/

[~Raindrop~]

And of those killed, I wonder how many 'unofficial' ones there must be. Like they record the murder of every man, woman and child! :/

[Ramadhan]

It has not included Muslims killed in Pakistan. :/

True.
But this was written in 2009, so I think he missed all the drones or bombings in pakistan.
But it is very rare for a mainstream US academic/scholar to have the gut to write something like it, and publishing it in a premium journal like FP (foreign policy).

[GuestFellow]

True.
But this was written in 2009, so I think he missed all the drones or bombings in pakistan.
But it is very rare for a mainstream US academic/scholar to have the gut to write something like it, and publishing it in a premium journal like FP (foreign policy).

Yes, it was a great article. Stephen M. Walt has a lot of guts, he even wrote the The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy. I bet he receives thousands of threatening emails.

[aadil77]

These independant journalists will never have a voice in mainstream media - governments will never allow it.

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

This is good, I always see ignorants on Youtube saying "Muslims are the killers, their all terrorists", my usual reply is "Yes, all Muslims are terrorists except for the 94% that aren't (link them to the study)", now I can source them to this interesting article too

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Thanks for the article. Like bro Naidmar said the figures are definitely at the 'low end'. Though for me the USA intervention, manipulation and interference etc in the affairs of the Middle East began seriously post 1945. So it goes way back.

Short video that gets straight to the point

[جوري]

where are the warmongers to comment on how justifiable it is to go killing civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan or or or ? sob7an Allah.. may Allah dam n those warmongering murderers to hell- they've been killing Muslims east and west for centuries with everyone's approval and aid!

[GuestFellow]

These independant journalists will never have a voice in mainstream media - governments will never allow it.

Forget that, many members of the public don't want to hear the truth or any criticism about their troops. They want to be brainwashed, misled or lied to. It is like the government pisses on their legs, tells them its raining and they accept it. >_>

[Ramadhan]

Forget that, many members of the public don't want to hear the truth or any criticism about their troops. They want to be brainwashed, misled or lied to. It is like the government pisses on their legs, tells them its raining and they accept it. >_>

Ain't this the truth!

In a sports forum recently, there was an outrage at the news that some israeli athletes could not get "early" visas to travel to a gulf state for a sports tournament. (by early, was 2 or 3 days. And all those israeli athletes did get their visas anyway and were able to travel and arrived in the gulf state a couple of days BEFORE the tournament started).
I was pointing out at the bureacracy difficulty of getting visas in general, especially between two countries that don't have diplomatic relations like Israel and the gulf state.
(you can ask US consuler in Jakarta how many percent of visa applicants they approve each year. miniscule!). Of course those majority american members are ignorant of this fact, seeing how they require NO visa to go to most places on earth.
As soon as I defended the Gulf state, the rest of the forum members jumped on me, calling the gulf state racist and dishing out stupid remarks against muslims and muslim countries in general, and how palestinians have equal rights and freedom in Israel (!!!!!).
When I wrote (in mild tone, much milder than how I normally write here) about the facts of Palestine and middle east conflict, EVERYBODY started calling me names, from "anti-semite" to "mozlem fundamentalist" to "terrorists" and they started to give me "facts" and "lectures" about Israel and Palestinians which can normally be found on FoxNews.

Mind you, most members of that forum are NOT hillbillies, and in fact they are highly educated americans (on average, the members hold master degrees), and yet they all succumbed to the idea of middle east presented by US mainstream media, and find it offensive that ANYONE could possibly criticize Israel.

[aadil77]

Forget that, many members of the public don't want to hear the truth or any criticism about their troops. They want to be brainwashed, misled or lied to. It is like the government pisses on their legs, tells them its raining and they accept it. >_>

Maybe in america, but I feel the british are more open to the truth - more able to think for themselves, this is why you have so many documentries being made here about what really goes on in the world.

[GuestFellow]

Maybe in america, but I feel the british are more open to the truth - more able to think for themselves, this is why you have so many documentries being made here about what really goes on in the world.

I agree, in Britain, the people are more open to the truth.

[Muezzin]

Excellent article. Stephen M. Walt, Robert Fisk and John Pilger are all great journalists in respect of exposing these sorts of tragedies to audiences who may not otherwise hear the other side of the story.

[Mike3449]

Excellent article. Stephen M. Walt, Robert Fisk and John Pilger are all great journalists in respect of exposing these sorts of tragedies to audiences who may not otherwise hear the other side of the story.

How many Muslims has America saved?

Like in Bosnia, Kosovo?

I agree that America should not have involved itself in Kuwait, Iraq, Kosovo.

So, we what would be talking about today had America not saved Kuwait?

Instead of Saudi Arabia...

Saddam Arabia.

Sounds the same to me.

[GuestFellow]

How many Muslims has America saved?

Like in Bosnia, Kosovo?

It does not change the fact that America has done bad things and its military killed loads of Muslims and non-Muslims.

Instead of Saudi Arabia...

Saddam Arabia.

Saudi Arabia and Saddam Arabia? What do you mean by this? O_o

[Mike3449]

It does not change the fact that America has done bad things and its military killed loads of Muslims and non-Muslims.



Saudi Arabia and Saddam Arabia? What do you mean by this? O_o

America has killed many Muslims and Non-Muslims. I'm not going to justify any of it. N or, am I gonna justify saving people.

What I meant by Saudi Arabia or Saddam Arabia... it does not matter to me which one of those controls Arabia.

Not one American life is worth deciding on that matter.

[malez]

even america is done a good jobe in so many countries like the nation feild(somalia) there were alot of somali people who lived in u s a and have their life there.
and doing well.

[GuestFellow]

America has killed many Muslims and Non-Muslims. I'm not going to justify any of it. N or, am I gonna justify saving people.

Saving who?

What I meant by Saudi Arabia or Saddam Arabia... it does not matter to me which one of those controls Arabia.

lol Saddam Arabia.

[Mike3449]

I wish the world would change.

America is my country... but, if I were in charge I would not bomb people. I would not do that. I'm against it. Because you kill innocents on many occasions. Usually. Always.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8jw-...eature=related