I am studying embryology for my exams and so I decided to google it and how it relates to islam. Then I came across the name of the author of the textbook and then came onto this particular site:
What is the purpose of this site? I am a muslim and I believe but this site has really confused me, and I am curious. Plz could someone enlighten me? Some things they talk about do not seem to be taken seriously e.g. the conclusions saying Jews are better than Muslims, what does this tell you about the source? It seems unreliable, and are they misinterpreting things here for example, about the muscles being formed prior to the bones, I think they're not understanding it properly, or as it was meant to be understood? I wonder what Dr.Zakir Naik would say I'm sure he would be able to disprove that or other reknowned scholars
Sorry this probably seems strange coming from a muslim, But the site has just latched onto me and I would like this clarifying plz. JazakAllah
It seems unreliable, and are they misinterpreting things here for example, about the muscles being formed prior to the bones,
In reality the muscles and the bones grow together. But unfortunately Surah 23:14 says that the developing feotus becomes at one stage bare bones, after which the bones are "clothed" with flesh (compare Surah 2:259).
In reality the muscles and the bones grow together. But unfortunately Surah 23:14 says that the developing feotus becomes at one stage bare bones, after which the bones are "clothed" with flesh (compare Surah 2:259).
I'm not sure if you really did not know or what, because it is so fundamental.
Hirsohi, QS. 2:259 is not about fetal development, but about the story of resurrection of a dead man. He had died for 100 years, so let me ask you what are the remains of a human after 100 years on the ground?
bare bones, correct, oh you are so clever.
Now, the QS 23:14
you are incorrect and inaccurate when saying bones and muscles develop together. That's a knowledge from 50 years ago maybe. Today embryology science has proven that the primordia of vertebrae (backbones) already developed before muscles, and bones from cartilage models have to develop first before the muscles develop around them from somatic mesoderm.
Are not you amazed that this information contained in the Qur'an, which was conveyed by a 7th century illiterate arab man, inside a book which tells the answers to man's fundamental questions, which provide guidance that stand test of time to all mankind and conveyed in a language with such miraculous literary not to mention other numerical miracles, and which was revealed in stages throughout 23 years time according to specific time and situations but the end result is so harmonious wherein there is no contradiction and a book that is self-reference?
Sorry this probably seems strange coming from a muslim, But the site has just latched onto me and I would like this clarifying plz. JazakAllah
Asalaam aleykum
"786"
as brother in humanity, would u mind to read below it might be of great help for many "InshaaAllah"
(86:7) emanating from between the loins and the ribs. *3
*3 "Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that tnan has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fiuid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established. (Also see Appendix I
APPENDIX I
(In continuation of E.N. 3 of At-Tiriq)
In connection with our explanation of vv. 6-7 of Sarah At-Tariq, as given in E.N. 3, a doctor wrote to us:
"I have read your explanation carefully several times but have not been able to understand it fully. As far as the practical obser¬vation is concerned, the procreative fluid is produced by the testes. The fluid then empties into the epididymis, which leads into the vas deferens immediately before the vas enters the body of the prostate gland, where it is supplied with mucus and is discharged. How it issues forth from between the backbone and the breast-bones, I have not been able to understand. However, control over it is exercised by a nervous system which is spread like a net-work between the breast-bone and the back-bone. But that too only to a certain extent; it is controlled by the mucus of another gland located in the brain. But the question here relates to its issuing forth (which can only take place through a tube). I would request for a detailed commentary of this point. I have given you this trouble (for which I hope to be excused) only because you believe in scientific knowl¬edge.—
In reply to this we wrote in the issue of the Tarjuman a!- Qur'an for November, 1971:
"As you are a doctor you can better understand that although different parts of the body have their own separate functions, no part can perform its function by itself but only in coordination with the other parts. No doubt, the seminal fluid is produced by the testes from where it is emitted through a particular channel. But if the stomach, liver, lungs, heart, brain, kidney, etc. are not perform¬ing their respective functions rightly, the system of the production of the seminal liquid and its emission cannot work by itself. Let us understand this by an example. Urine forms in the kidney, is emptied into the bladder, from where it is discharged through the outlet of the urinary tract. But by what process? if the organs which produce blood and circulate it throughout the body are not functioning properly, can the kidney by itself separate those elementsfrom the blood, which make up urine, and send it to the bladder ?
That is why, the Quran does not say that the seminal fluid, issues from the back-bone and the breast-bones, but has said: "It tissues forth from the part of the body which is located between the two." This does not negate the fact that the production of the seminal fluid and its emission has a mechanism which functions through particular parts of the body, but it shows that this mechanism is not indepen¬dent; it performs its function in consequence of the combined work of the organism placed by Allah between the sulb (back-bone) and the tarreib (breast-bones). That is why, I have pointed out that the whole body is not involved in it, for even if the hands and feet are. cut off, this system continues to work. However, if any one organ out of the principal organs located between the backbone and the breast-bones, is eliminated, the system cannot continue its function.'"
After reading the Question and the Answer, two doctors from two different places have provided some medical information which is given below:
According to modern Embryology, it is an established fact that the testes in the foetus, the glands which produce seminal fluid, are located close to the kidneys between the backbone and the breast¬bones, from where they gradually descend into the scrotum later. This happens before birth and sometimes a little after it. But even then the source of their nerves and veins remains the same, i.e. between the backbone and the breast-bones. Even their artery shoots out from the aorta located close to the backbone and travers¬ing the whole stomach, supplies them with blood.
Thus, in fact, the testes are a part of the back, which on account of their inability to endure the high temperature of the body, have been transferred to the scrotum. Furthermore, although the seminal fluid is produced by the testes and stored in seminal vesicles, yet its emissiom is motivated from between the backbone and the breast-bones. On stimulation from the brain the trigger action..
.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,........ ........,,,,,,,,,,><......................
(22:5) O people, if you have any doubt about Life after death, you should know that We first created you of clay, then of a sperm-drop *5 then of a clot of blood, then of a lump of flesh, shaped or shapeless. *6 ( We are telling you this) so that We may make the reality plain to you. And We make those (sperm drops), which We will, remain in the wombs for a fixed period, then We bring you forth as a child; then (We nourish you) so that you may attain to your full youth. And there may be among you one who is recalled earlier and one who is returned to the most abject age so that he should know nothing even after knowing all he could. *7 And you see the land lying dry and barren, but as soon as We send down rain water upon it, it stirs (to life), and swells and brings forth every kind of luxuriant vegetation.
*5 "..... created you .....sperm-drop": The first man Adam was created directly from clay and after him the process of procreation started by means of sperm-drop. This has been stated in XXXII: 7-8 as well. It may also mean that man is created from sperm-drop but his body is made of those elements which are all available in the earth.
*6 This refers to the different stages of development of the child in the womb of its mother. This description is based on observation and not on scientific research, and there was no need for it for the purpose for which reference to this has been made here.
(22:7) and (this is a proof that) the Hour of Resurrection is sure to come and there is absolutely no doubt about it, and most surely He will raise up those who are lying in the graves. *9
*9 In this passage, different stages of the life of man, the effects of rain on the earth and the growth of vegetation have been cited as pointers to five realities:
(1) "Allah alone is the Truth".
(2) "He brings the dead to life".
(3) "He has power over everything".
(4) "The Day of Resurrection and the end of the world is inevitable".
(5) Most surely Allah will bring back to life all the people who have died", Let us now consider how these signs point to the above five realities:
(1) "Allah is the Truth": In order to prove this, let us first take the case of man. All the stages of his development are a clear proof that Allah has designed them with wisdom. He takes his birth from a sperm-drop which itself is produced in a wonderful manner. The food, which a man takes, turns into hair, flesh, bones and a part of it is turned into semen, which is potentially capable of producing millions of human beings. It is the Wise and True God Who decides which of these millions of seeds from the semen should be utilized to make a woman pregnant by mixing the seed with the egg-cell. This insignificant thing turns into a living child in nine months in the womb of the mother. If we consider the different stages of the child's birth we come to the inevitable conclusion that all these have been designed by the True, EverLiving Designer. For it is He Who decides whether it should be a male or a female, seeing or blind, etc. Then it is He Who decides how long a child is destined to live. All these things are a clear proof that Allah alone is the Truth.
(2) "He brings the dead to life": Even a little thinking on the right lines will convince every sensible and honest man that this process of bringing the dead to life is continuously going on before our eyes. Every human being has been created from a "dead" sperm-drop. Then he gets life from "dead things" like food containing dead matter like coal, iron, lime, salts, gases, which help make him a living human being. Then let us consider our surroundings. Seeds of different things which had been scattered here and there by the wind nad birds, and the roots of different kinds of vegetation which lay rotten and dead in the soil, spring up to life as soon as there occurs a sprinkling of rain water. This process of the dead coming to life is observed during every rainy season year after year.
(3) "Allah has power over everything": There are people who believe that no doubt Allah created everything and is governing the universe, but He cannot do anything in the future in addition to or apart from this. This is because they do not observe the phenomena of His powers which have been and are appearing every moment. They do not realize that if man-His creation ran perform wonderful feats of science which could not even be dreamt of in the former ages, why should Allah alone be held as having only limited powers ?
(4) "The Day of Resurrection is inevitable" and "Most surely Allah will bring back to life all the people who have died": These two are the rational corollaries of the preceding three premises. Allah is All-Powerful and therefore can bring about Resurrection at any moment He wills. He can also bring back to life all the dead people just as He brought to life human beings out of nothing in the first instance. As He is All-Wise, He has not created human beings without any object and purpose. He will judge their worldly lives in accordance with the object and purpose for which He created them. He will call them to account for everything He entrusted to them. This is very simple: even human beings ask one another to render an account of the property etc. they entrust to others. Likewise, Allah's wisdom requires to call every human being to account for the things entrusted to him. Then human nature also demands that there should be a differentiation between good and bad, and it expects the reward of good works and dreads the punishment of bad deeds. That is why the people have set up judicial courts. Thus man cannot imagine that the Creator will not call him to account for the things, powers and faculties, etc. which He has entrusted to him. Therefore common sense confirms that Allah will hold the Last Judgment so that every one should get his due reward and his due punishment.
_____________________
(22:8) There are still others who arrogantly *10 dispute about Allah without any knowledge *11 and guidance *12 and illuminating Book, *13
*10 That is, they are so stiff-necked, proud, arrogant, obdurate and obstinate that they do not pay any heed to "Admonition".
*11 "Knowledge": that personal information which is gained directly through observation and experience.
*12 "Guidance": that information which is gained .by reasoning or through another person who has knowledge.
*13 `'Illuminating Book": Source of information gained from Divine Revelation.
my dear "786"
me and you let us ask ALLAH,,, Jala Jalaaluhu as below.
................Rabi Zidnna Ilman wa Rzuqna Fahmaan...Bi Rahmatika yaa Arahm Rahimiiiyn
Sorry this probably seems strange coming from a muslim, But the site has just latched onto me and I would like this clarifying plz. JazakAllah
Asalaam aleykum
"786"
as brother in humanity, would u mind to read below it might be of great help for many "InshaaAllah"
(86:7) emanating from between the loins and the ribs. *3
*3 "Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that tnan has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fiuid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established. (Also see Appendix I
APPENDIX I
(In continuation of E.N. 3 of At-Tiriq)
In connection with our explanation of vv. 6-7 of Sarah At-Tariq, as given in E.N. 3, a doctor wrote to us:
"I have read your explanation carefully several times but have not been able to understand it fully. As far as the practical obser¬vation is concerned, the procreative fluid is produced by the testes. The fluid then empties into the epididymis, which leads into the vas deferens immediately before the vas enters the body of the prostate gland, where it is supplied with mucus and is discharged. How it issues forth from between the backbone and the breast-bones, I have not been able to understand. However, control over it is exercised by a nervous system which is spread like a net-work between the breast-bone and the back-bone. But that too only to a certain extent; it is controlled by the mucus of another gland located in the brain. But the question here relates to its issuing forth (which can only take place through a tube). I would request for a detailed commentary of this point. I have given you this trouble (for which I hope to be excused) only because you believe in scientific knowl¬edge.—
In reply to this we wrote in the issue of the Tarjuman a!- Qur'an for November, 1971:
"As you are a doctor you can better understand that although different parts of the body have their own separate functions, no part can perform its function by itself but only in coordination with the other parts. No doubt, the seminal fluid is produced by the testes from where it is emitted through a particular channel. But if the stomach, liver, lungs, heart, brain, kidney, etc. are not perform¬ing their respective functions rightly, the system of the production of the seminal liquid and its emission cannot work by itself. Let us understand this by an example. Urine forms in the kidney, is emptied into the bladder, from where it is discharged through the outlet of the urinary tract. But by what process? if the organs which produce blood and circulate it throughout the body are not functioning properly, can the kidney by itself separate those elementsfrom the blood, which make up urine, and send it to the bladder ?
That is why, the Quran does not say that the seminal fluid, issues from the back-bone and the breast-bones, but has said: "It tissues forth from the part of the body which is located between the two." This does not negate the fact that the production of the seminal fluid and its emission has a mechanism which functions through particular parts of the body, but it shows that this mechanism is not indepen¬dent; it performs its function in consequence of the combined work of the organism placed by Allah between the sulb (back-bone) and the tarreib (breast-bones). That is why, I have pointed out that the whole body is not involved in it, for even if the hands and feet are. cut off, this system continues to work. However, if any one organ out of the principal organs located between the backbone and the breast-bones, is eliminated, the system cannot continue its function.'"
After reading the Question and the Answer, two doctors from two different places have provided some medical information which is given below:
According to modern Embryology, it is an established fact that the testes in the foetus, the glands which produce seminal fluid, are located close to the kidneys between the backbone and the breast¬bones, from where they gradually descend into the scrotum later. This happens before birth and sometimes a little after it. But even then the source of their nerves and veins remains the same, i.e. between the backbone and the breast-bones. Even their artery shoots out from the aorta located close to the backbone and travers¬ing the whole stomach, supplies them with blood.
Thus, in fact, the testes are a part of the back, which on account of their inability to endure the high temperature of the body, have been transferred to the scrotum. Furthermore, although the seminal fluid is produced by the testes and stored in seminal vesicles, yet its emissiom is motivated from between the backbone and the breast-bones. On stimulation from the brain the trigger action..
According to modern Embryology, it is an established fact that the testes in the foetus, the glands which produce seminal fluid, are located close to the kidneys between the backbone and the breast¬bones, from where they gradually descend into the scrotum later.
Obviously, as you trace the development of the foetus backwards, you will find that body parts come closer together. At conception the embryo is just a dividing cell. But what is being spoken about in Surah 86:6-7 is an adult male (not a foetus) and the location from where semen comes from in his body at the time when it gushes forth.
Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?
Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.
Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.
Paul Szauter
Mouse Genome Informatics
Reference: Scott F. Gilbert Developmental Biology, 6th Edition Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2000.
So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?
Besides; Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَعِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.
So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.
I'm not sure if you really did not know or what, because it is so fundamental.
Hirsohi, QS. 2:259 is not about fetal development, but about the story of resurrection of a dead man. He had died for 100 years, so let me ask you what are the remains of a human after 100 years on the ground?
bare bones, correct, oh you are so clever.
I believe that the bare bones mentioned in Surah 2:259 are those of a dead donkey which Allah “clothes with flesh” restoring the animal to life. But the expression used in this verse is exactly like that of Surah 23:14 “then We ... clothed the bones with flesh” with reference to the developing foetus.
Another problem with Surah 23:14 is that it states that the developing child in the womb becomes at an early stage a blood clot. This is not true but it was a common belief in ancient times. I notice that a number of modern translations render “alaq” or “alaqa” as “clinging substance” rather than “blood clot” (Surah 96:2 Saheeh International). But I am sure that, until modern times, no one understood this to be the word’s correct meaning.
Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?
Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.
Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.
Paul Szauter
Mouse Genome Informatics
Reference: Scott F. Gilbert Developmental Biology, 6th Edition Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2000.
So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?
Besides; Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَعِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.
So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.
"(Then fashioned We) then We transformed (the drop) into (a clot) for another forty days, (then fashioned We) then We transformed (the clot) into (a little lump) for forty days, (then fashioned We) the We transformed (the little lump) into (bones) without flesh, (then clothed the bones with flesh) joints, veins and other things, (and then produced it another creation) and then We placed in it the spirit. (So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators) the Best of Transformers!"
Woodrow then suggested that the tafsir must be in error. Are you both now telling me that you understand this tafsir to be scientifically correct?
If you see the ayah, it is referring to a man (most probably Ezra) and his donkey which had died. Then God brought it to life, first by constructing it's bones together, then clothing those bones with flesh.
We see that;
1 - That is not discussing an embryo being formed - it is talking about a donkey who was brought back to life after its death.
2 - the Tafseer attributed to ibn Abbas has been criticized by some scholars, some saying that it is not even his tafseer, and that it is only attributed to him.
3 - As I have stated in my earlier post, people in the medical field themselves differ on this issue;
Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?
Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.
Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.
Another problem with Surah 23:14 is that it states that the developing child in the womb becomes at an early stage a blood clot. This is not true but it was a common belief in ancient times. I notice that a number of modern translations render “alaq” or “alaqa” as “clinging substance” rather than “blood clot” (Surah 96:2 Saheeh International). But I am sure that, until modern times, no one understood this to be the word’s correct meaning.
The word 'alaq literally means 'that which hangs'.
(22:8) There are still others who arrogantly *10 dispute about Allah without any knowledge *11 and guidance *12 and illuminating Book, *13
*10 That is, they are so stiff-necked, proud, arrogant, obdurate and obstinate that they do not pay any heed to "Admonition".
*11 "Knowledge": that personal information which is gained directly through observation and experience.
بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ
(55:13) Which of the bounties of your Lord will you twain – you men and jinn – then deny?
(55:14) He has created man from dry, rotten clay like the potter’s,
(55:15) and has created the jinn from the flame of fire.
(55:16) Which of the wonders of your Lord’s power will you twain – you men and jinn – then deny?
The first words that I ever read in the Qur'an were the opening verses of Surah 96 which stated that man was created from "clots of blood". This puzzled me greatly until I found out that the passage was referring to conception in the womb rather than to the creation of the man Adam.
Anyway, I see two problems here. Firstly, the embryo hangs from its attachment to the inside of the womb for the entire duration of the pregnancy, not just for the initial "alaqa" stage. And secondly, I am sure that no one until modern times has understood alaqa to mean anything other that a blood clot. Should we not base our judgement upon how the Qur'an was understood in ancient times rather than impose a completely new idea? Also, in nearly all the references (in a number of different passages) in the versions of the Qur'an that I have, alaqa is rendered as "blood clot". Are you then saying that these are all mistranslations?
The link that i gave you gives you the definition of the word 'Alaq in classical arabic, that is the language spoken at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the time prior to him.
People who translated 'alaq as a clot of blood may have done so while perceiving that this clot of blood hangs from inside the womb.
Should we not base our judgement upon how the Qur'an was understood in ancient times rather than impose a completely new idea? Also, in nearly all the references (in a number of different passages) in the versions of the Qur'an that I have, alaqa is rendered as "blood clot". Are you then saying that these are all mistranslations?
Now you see, the Qur'an, being the last book of God is meant for the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all times after, so, it is made for our past, present and future and for Jinns. The beauty of the Qur'an is that it is vague and correct for every nation before us, making it scientifically correct to the knowledge of people before us and us currently. For more information please refer to Zakir Naik's debate with Dr William Campbell about Islam and Christianity in the light of science.
Most of the tafseer's you have read must be scientifically inacurate ones.
i see that, because of very little knowledge; and few substances few which have been given viz Quran Kareem
Now we humans (especially scientists) do come up with arguments as Kuran Kareem is inacurrate
But i would like to say that in kuran kareem there is a hidden question and a clue to that question
i am eager to hear from any who could give us a proven knowledge .
format_quote Originally Posted by
(55:14) He has created man from dry, rotten clay like the potter’s
now it is known what 'elements' are obtained from Earth..(above)
format_quote Originally Posted by
(55:15) and has created the jinn from the flame of fire
My question:-
How do jins conceive?
apart of just mentioning from the flame of fire Kuran did go in details comparing with human;
which makes some to come up taking references from the very verses of Kuran with the intentions as kuran is inaccurate
Well ><>< tell us what kind of fire and where obtained...any full information IF ANY HAS !!
so be given little knowledge and the question as
format_quote Originally Posted by
(55:16) Which of the wonders of your Lord’s power will you twain – you men and jinn – then deny?
is really meant you have to admit by words and deeds that Laa Bi Shein Min alaika Rabi UkDhib
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