In my search for understanding I have spent some time studying philosophy and philosophers. When it gets to God it all gets a bit muddy.
Axioms are used a lot by philosophers and mathematicians as building blocks for establishing understanding. An axiom is ‘a self-evident or universally recognized truth’ e.g. ‘parallel lines will never meet.’
It seems to me that we should be able to set out a set of axioms that define God. As you all believe in God (as opposed to my philosophy buddies) I presume you are able to define God? Can we write up a set of axioms that define God?
Let me first give some examples of what is NOT an axiom:
God is Love
God is Light
God is Beauty.
God is my friend.
Because other things besides God might also be love, light, beautiful etc.
Example of axioms which I believe define God are:
God is not human.
God has unlimited power.
God is everywhere at all times.
God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
God is infinite (has always existed and always will exist).
God is just (dispensing only perfect justice).
What other axioms can we use to define what God is or is not?
God is above having mother and father.
God is above having relatives or wife.
God is above having children.
God is exempt from having any partners.
God is exempt from having any helpers, or fellows.
God is far beyond having any relation which is contrary to perfection.
God is far beyond having any relation which is compelling, necessitating, or involuntary.
God is pre-eternal and post-eternal.
Neither in His essence, nor in His attributes, nor in His actions, has He in any way any equal, peer, like, or match, or anything similar, resembling, or analogous to Him.
God is merciful.
God is compassionate.
God is the only giver of bounties.
God is the unique Creator of universe and everything in.
God is the Creator of good and evil.
God is the most great.
God has glory and dignity.
God has splendour and majesty.
God is the real owner of all beauty in universe.
God has everlasting sovereignty.
God has power over all things.
God is the owner of destiny.
God is the Creator of life.
God is the Creator of death.
God is above having faults.
God is the protector of all things.
Last edited by selsebil; 02-01-2011 at 01:56 PM.
“An hour’s reflective thought is better than a year’s worship” Hadith
"We Muslims, who are students of the Qur’an, follow proof; we approach the truths of belief through reason, thought, and our hearts. " Bediuzzaman Said Nursi
I expect it will be easier to define god according to what he isn't, rather than what he is.
Indeed, what He is or what He is not, either way as long as it is A SELF EVIDENT TRUTH. It’s difficult to do but it seems to me that if you are going to focus your life on ‘pleasing’ God, you should at least know what a God is (or is not). God gave us the ability to think / contemplate / postulate, presumably he did that because he wanted / expected us to do that? Does God not want us to know him; If so should we not then start by defining him?
He is Time (He holds the days and nights in His hand)
Sorry to shoot you down but - God may or may not be time as we don't know what time is but it certainly not a self evdient truth that God is time. And why would he need hands? In fact you could argue that 'God doesn't have hands because he doesn't need hands' is an axiom but then you might say that God could have hands if he wanted then as he is God, but either way he would need them - see what I mean?
Sorry to shoot you down but - God may or may not be time as we don't know what time is but it certainly not a self evdient truth that God is time. And why would he need hands?
guess i shouldnt have said "holds" but rather they are in His hand Abu Hurayra reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (pbuh) saying: Allah the exalted and Glorious said: The son of Adam abuses Time, whereas I am The Time. In my hand are the days and nights.
(Source: Sahih Muslim)
Here is another Hadith from Sahih Muslim:
Abu Hurayra narrated that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) had said: No one of you should abuse the Time for Allah is the Time, and no one of you should call the grape a Al-Karm, for the Karm is a Muslim man.
Last edited by S.Belle; 02-01-2011 at 08:33 PM.
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why we call it 'The Present'."
Example of axioms which I believe define God are:
God is not human.
God has unlimited power.
God is everywhere at all times.
God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
God is infinite (has always existed and always will exist).
God is just (dispensing only perfect justice).
What other axioms can we use to define what God is or is not?
Thinker, those might be examples of how you define.what you believe about God. But how are those 'self-evident'? (Perhaps I am confused about what you mean by that)
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
surah ikhlas
He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
Is that it, is that all we know about God, surely there is more?
He is Allah, the One and Only! That seems to a saying the same thing as the last sentence - God, is unique, without equal.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; Eternal – Yes, OK, eternal we’ve had that one but ‘absolute’ – absolute what?
He begetteth not nor is He begotten. Maybe but hardly something Godly attribute!
And there is none like unto Him. OK but that’s the same as the first line - God, is unique, without equal.
In fact you could argue that 'God doesn't have hands because he doesn't need hands' is an axiom but then you might say that God could have hands if he wanted then as he is God, but either way he would need them - see what I mean?
i think its figuratively speaking in His hands= in His control..but then again it could actually be in His hands... so God has all the control could be one...right? God is without flaw
Last edited by S.Belle; 02-01-2011 at 08:47 PM.
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why we call it 'The Present'."
Thinker, those might be examples of how you define.what you believe about God. But how are those 'self-evident'? (Perhaps I am confused about what you mean by that)
They are self evident because to be a God he must be those things otherwise he is not a God. If you can be a God and not be those things show me how and they will then not be a self evident truth (an axiom).
Thanks, Thinker. I can see that I will never make a good philosopher. I am struggling to make sense of your statement ... (My fault, not your's, I am sure ...)
I googled axiom and found this definition:
In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition that is not proved or demonstrated but considered to be either self-evident, or subject to necessary decision. Therefore, its truth is taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other (theory dependent) truths.
Are you saying (for example) that I (as a human) can be loving or somebody's friend, therefore those attributes are not solely godly attributes and therefore not God axioms?
Is a God axiom something that would be unique to God, and no-one else?
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Is a God axiom something that would be unique to God, and no-one else?
I might argue the following, if someone can find fault in the argument of state an opposining axiom that brings doubt to the argument we reject it as an axiom.
God is not human.
If God was human it would be God, by definition God is something different than a human being.
God has unlimited power.
Again, by definition God can do anything and consequenmtly must have unlimited power otherwsie he would not be a God he would be something else.
God is everywhere at all times.
Because has unlimited power and ability and because the world is God’s creation it logically follows that God must be everywhere all the time.
God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
God can’t not know what’s going on and to know what’s going on he must know everything that has occurred. Because God created everything and ebcause it is his design and because he knows everything he must know what is going to happen.
God is infinite (has always existed and always will exist).
As God created everything he must have been here before everything and it logically follows that as existence depends upon him he must be eternal.
God is just (dispensing only perfect justice).
You can’t have a perverse God who flick coins when dispensing justice, he must be fair and capable of perfect justice otherwise he would be a God.
God is unique, without equal
If God were not unique there could be more Gods in which case there may be one which is more powerful in which case God would not be God.
God cannot make mistakes.
God is a perfect entity if he could make mistakes he would not be perfect
I've got to admit I'm baffled. This was from your first post, Thinker:
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
It seems to me that we should be able to set out a set of axioms that define God. As you all believe in God (as opposed to my philosophy buddies) I presume you are able to define God? Can we write up a set of axioms that define God?
OK, so we're looking for axioms in order to create a definition of God.
This is from your most recent post:
God is not human.
If God was human it would be God, by definition God is something different than a human being.
You've presented your first axiom, and you justify it using the phrase "by definition". It now looks like you want to do things the other way round. What definition are you using to create your axioms with which to create a definition?
I think my first (self-evident) axiom would be:
God is not easy to talk about without going round and round in circles!
Apart from surah al-ikhlas, the following is the 99 desrcriptions/names of God according to the Qur'an:
Arabic Transliteration Translation (can vary based on context) Qur'anic usage
1 الرحمن Ar-Raḥmān The Compassionate, The Beneficent, The Gracious Beginning of every chapter except one, and in numerous other places. Name frequently used in surah 55, Ar-Rahman
2 الرحيم Ar-Raḥīm The Merciful Beginning of every chapter except one, and in numerous other places
3 الملك Al-Malik The King, The Master, The Sovereign Lord 59:23, 20:114
4 القدوس Al-Quddūs The Holy, The Pure, The Perfect 59:23, 62:1
5 السلام As-Salām The Peace and Blessing, The Source of Peace and Safety 59:23
6 المؤمن Al-Mu'min The Guarantor, The Affirming 59:23
7 المهيمن Al-Muhaymin The Guardian, The Protector 59:23
العزيز 8 Al-‘Azīz The Almighty, The Sufficient, The Honorable 3:6, 4:158, 9:40, 48:7, 59:23
9 الجبار Al-Jabbār The Irresistible, The Compeller, The Lofty 59:23
10 المتكبر Al-Mutakabbir The Highest, The Greatest 59:23
11 الخالق Al-Khāliq The Creator 6:102, 13:16, 39:62, 40:62, 59:24
12 البارئ Al-Bāri' The Rightful 59:24
13 المصور Al-Muṣawwir The Evolver, The Fashioner of Forms 59:24
14 الغفار Al-Ghaffār The Forgiving 20:82, 38:66, 39:5, 40:42, 71:10
15 القهار Al-Qahhār The Subduer 13:16, 14:48, 38:65, 39:4, 40:16
16 الوهاب Al-Wahhāb The Bestower 3:8, 38:9, 38:35
17 الرزاق Ar-Razzāq The Provider 51:58
18 الفتاح Al-Fattāḥ The Opener, The Victory Giver 34:26
العليم 19 Al-'Alīm The All Knowing, The Omniscient 2:158, 3:92, 4:35, 24:41, 33:40
20 القابض Al-Qābiḍ The Restrainer, The Straightener 2:245
21 الباسط Al-Bāsiṭ The Extender / Expander 2:245
22 الخافض Al-Khāfiḍ The Abaser 95:5
23 الرافع Ar-Rāfi' The Exalter 58:11, 6:83
24 المعز Al-Mu'izz The Giver of Honour 3:26
25 المذل Al-Mudhill The Giver of Dishonour 3:26
26 السميع As-Samī' The All Hearing 2:127, 2:256, 8:17, 49:1
27 البصير Al-Baṣīr The All Seeing 4:58, 17:1, 42:11, 42:27
28 الحكم Al-Ḥakam The Judge, The Arbitrator 22:69
29 العدل Al-'Adl The Utterly Just 6:115
30 اللطيف Al-Laṭīf The Gentle, The Subtly Kind 6:103, 22:63, 31:16, 33:34
31 الخبير Al-Khabīr The All Aware 6:18, 17:30, 49:13, 59:18
32 الحليم Al-Ḥalīm The Forbearing, The Indulgent 2:235, 17:44, 22:59, 35:41
33 العظيم Al-'Aẓīm The Magnificent 2:255, 42:4, 56:96
34 الغفور Al Ghaffūr The All-Forgiving 2:173, 8:69, 16:110, 41:32
35 الشكور Ash-Shakūr The Grateful 35:30, 35:34, 42:23, 64:17
36 العلي Al-'Alīy The Sublime 4:34, 31:30, 42:4, 42:51
37 الكبير Al-Kabīr The Great 13:9, 22:62, 31:30
38 الحفيظ Al-Ḥafīẓ The Preserver 11:57, 34:21, 42:6
39 المقيت Al-Muqīt The Nourisher 4:85
40 الحسيب Al-Ḥasīb The Bringer of Judgment 4:6, 4:86, 33:39
41 الجليل Al-Jalīl The Majestic 55:27, 39:14, 7:143
42 الكريم Al-Karīm The Bountiful, The Generous 27:40, 82:6
43 الرقيب Ar-Raqīb The Watchful 4:1, 5:117
44 المجيب Al-Mujīb The Responsive, The Answer 11:61
45 الواسع Al-Wāsi' The Vast, The All-Embracing, The Omnipresent, The Boundless 2:268, 3:73, 5:54
46 الحكيم Al-Ḥakīm The Wise 31:27, 46:2, 57:1, 66:2
47 الودود Al-Wadūd The Loving 11:90, 85:14
48 المجيد Al-Majīd The Glorious 11:73
49 الباعث Al-Bā'ith The Resurrecter 22:7
50 الشهيد Ash-Shahīd The Witness 4:166, 22:17, 41:53, 48:28
51 الحق Al-Ḥaqq The Truth, The Real 6:62, 22:6, 23:116, 24:25
52 الوكيل Al-Wakīl The Trustee, The Dependable 3:173, 4:171, 28:28, 73:9
53 القوي Al-Qawwīy The Strong 22:40, 22:74, 42:19, 57:25
54 المتين Al-Matīn The Firm, The Steadfast 51:58
55 الولي Al-Walīy The Friend, Patron and Helper 4:45, 7:196, 42:28, 45:19
56 الحميد Al-Ḥamīd The All Praiseworthy 14:8, 31:12, 31:26, 41:42
57 المحصي Al-Muḥṣīy The Accounter, The Numberer of All 72:28, 78:29, 82:10-12
58 المبدئ Al-Mubdi' The Originator, The Producer, The Initiator 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 85:13
59 المعيد Al-Mu'īd The Restorer, The Reinstater Who Brings Back All 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 85:13
60 المحيي Al-Muḥyīy The Giver of Life 7:158, 15:23, 30:50, 57:2
المميت Al-Mumīt The Destroyer, The Bringer of Death 3:156, 7:158, 15:23, 57:2
62 الحي Al-Ḥayy The Living 2:255, 3:2, 25:58, 40:65
63 القيوم Al-Qayyūm The Subsisting 2:255, 3:2, 20:111
64 الواجد Al-Wājid The Perceiver, The Finder, The Unfailing 38:44
65 الماجد Al-Mājid The Illustrious, The Magnificent 85:15, 11:73,
66 الواحد Al-Wāḥid The One, The Unique 2:163, 5:73, 9:31, 18:110
67 الاحد Al-'Aḥad The Unity, The Indivisible 112:1
68 الصمد Aṣ-Ṣamad The Eternal, The Absolute, The Self-Sufficient 112:2
69 القادر Al-Qādir The Omnipotent, The All Able 6:65, 36:81, 46:33, 75:40
70 المقتدر Al-Muqtadir The Determiner, The Dominant 18:45, 54:42, 54:55
71 المقدم Al-Muqaddim The Expediter, He Who Brings Forward 16:61, 17:34,
72 المؤخر Al-Mu'akhkhir The Delayer, He Who Puts Far Away 71:4
73 الأول Al-'Awwal The First 57:3
74 الأخر Al-'Akhir The Last 57:3
75 الظاهر Aẓ-Ẓāhir The Manifest, The Evident, The Outer 57:3
76 الباطن Al-Bāṭin The Hidden, The Unmanifest, The Inner 57:3
77 الوالي Al-Wālīy The Patron 13:11, 22:7
78 المتعالي Al-Muta'ālīy The Exalted 13:9
79 البر Al-Barr The Good 52:28
80 التواب At-Tawwāb The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting 2:128, 4:64, 49:12, 110:3
81 المنتقم Al-Muntaqim The Avenger 32:22, 43:41, 44:16
82 العفو Al-'Afūw The Pardoner, The Effacer 4:99, 4:149, 22:60
83 الرؤوف Ar-Ra'ūf The Kind, The Pitying 3:30, 9:117, 57:9, 59:10
84 مالك الملك Mālik-ul-Mulk The Owner of all Sovereignty 3:26
85 ذو الجلال والإكرام Dhū-l-Jalāliwa-l-'ikrām The Lord of Majesty and Generosity 55:27, 55:78
86 المقسط Al-Muqsiţ The Equitable, The Requiter 7:29, 3:18
87 الجامع Al-Jāmi' The Gatherer, The Unifier 3:9
88 الغني Al-Ghanīy The Rich, The Independent 3:97, 39:7, 47:38, 57:24
89 المغني Al-Mughnīy The Enricher, The Emancipator 9:28
90 المانع Al-Māni' The Withholder, The Shielder, The Defender 67:21
91 الضار Aḍ-Ḍārr The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor 6:17
92 النافع An-Nāfi' The Propitious, The Benefactor, The Source of Good 30:37
93 النور An-Nūr The Light 24:35
الهادي 94 Al-Hādīy The Guide, The Way 22:54
95 البديع Al-Badī' The Incomparable, The Unattainable 2:117, 6:101
96 الباقي Al-Bāqīy The Immutable, The Infinite, The Everlasting 55:27
97 الوارث Al-Wārith The Heir, The Inheritor of All 15:23
98 الرشيد Ar-Rashīd The Guide to the Right Path 2:256
99 الصبور Aṣ-Ṣabūr The Timeless, The Patient 2:153, 3:200, 103:3
You've presented your first axiom, and you justify it using the phrase "by definition". It now looks like you want to do things the other way round. What definition are you using to create your axioms with which to create a definition?
I think my first (self-evident) axiom would be:
God is not easy to talk about without going round and round in circles!
Peace
Take your point and sorry some typos there it should have read
God is not human.
If God was human he could not be God because God created man and man cannot be God.
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