Jesus never said 'I am God', but a guy who isn't Jesus, did say it in Gen 31:10-13!

[logs22]

Over 2 years ago, Muslims challenged Christians saying "Jesus never said 'I am God' ", and Christians haven't been able to argue against that ever since... but both Muslims and Christians have somehow overlooked another guy in the bible, who is not Jesus - a hidden Son of God who did say "I am God" in Genesis 31:10-13.

The youtube video by Youneekk called "The Return Of Horus The Crucified" shows what we Muslims and Christians have both overlooked!

Genesis 31:10-13,

“In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”



Like the youtube video says "that beats everything Jesus ever said!" How did everyone miss this? Discuss.

[Hiroshi]

Over 2 years ago, Muslims challenged Christians saying "Jesus never said 'I am God' ", and Christians haven't been able to argue against that ever since... but both Muslims and Christians have somehow overlooked another guy in the bible, who is not Jesus - a hidden Son of God who did say "I am God" in Genesis 31:10-13.

The youtube video by Youneekk called "The Return Of Horus The Crucified" shows what we Muslims and Christians have both overlooked!

Genesis 31:10-13,

“In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”



Like the youtube video says "that beats everything Jesus ever said!" How did everyone miss this? Discuss.

I share your belief that Jesus is not Almighty God and never claimed to be.

But concerning the passage that you quote here I would point out that in the Bible God often speaks by means of angels that carry God's message to his servants. And many times the angels convey the exact words of God as they are God himself speaking. For example, God's angel appears to Moses in a burning bush in Exodus 3:2. But when the angel speaks he says to Moses in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ... etc."

[Amat Allah]

Bismellah Tawakkalna ala Allah wa laa hawla wa laa qowata ill beIllah

God often speaks by means of angels that carry God's message to his servants. And many times the angels convey the exact words of God as they are God himself speaking.

That is true but what you have mentioned above when you said:

For example, God's angel appears to Moses in a burning bush in Exodus 3:2. But when the angel speaks he says to Moses in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ... etc."

Is not with all my respect; that wasn`t an Angel (peace be upon them all) that was Allah Al Mighty speaking my respected brother...

"Then, when Musa (Moses) had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he saw a fire in the direction of Tur (Mount). He said to his family: "Wait, I have seen a fire; perhaps I may bring to you from there some information, or a burning fire-brand that you may warm yourselves." (29) So when he reached it (the fire), he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place from the tree: "O Musa (Moses)! Verily! I am Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)! (30)" Surat Al Qasas

"And mention in the Book (this Quran) Musa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet. (51)And We called him from the right side of the Mount, and made him draw near to Us for a talk with him [Musa (Moses)]. (52)" Surat Mar`yam

"And Messengers We have mentioned to you before, and Messengers We have not mentioned to you, - and to Musa (Moses) Allah spoke directly. (164)" Surat Annisaa

"Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. If Allah had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allah had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved. If Allah had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allah does what He likes. (253)" Surat Al Baqarah

[Sol Invictus]

I share your belief that Jesus is not Almighty God and never claimed to be.

But concerning the passage that you quote here I would point out that in the Bible God often speaks by means of angels that carry God's message to his servants. ( a ) And many times the angels convey the exact words of God as they are God himself speaking. For example, God's angel appears to Moses in a burning bush in Exodus 3:2. But when the angel speaks he says to Moses in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ... etc."

( a ) that is patently false. the only individual who speaks in this manner is the one called the angel of the lord and no other angel ever speaks as such. not only that, but numerous times in the old testament is this individual attested to as god by individuals in scripture.

[SalamChristian]

Salaam Alaikum,

As a Christian, I feel obligated to clarify a few things about my religion:

Jesus (pbuh) is not Allah (swt). He is one with God. In the same verse where he says this, Jesus (pbuh) says "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” It is very important to note here that the word our Gospel records Jesus (pbuh) uses to say "I and the Father are one" is "en," which is the root of both the word "one" and "unity," "unified," and "unison." Essentially, what Jesus is saying is that by submitting completely to Allah's (swt) will, he is one with God.
-Jesus (pbuh) also says "Salam Alaikum; my peace I give to you; I do not give it to you as the world does. Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage. You heard me say to you, "I am going away and I am coming back to you." If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:27-28)

We do not pray to Jesus (pbuh). We pray to Allah (swt), and Allah (swt) alone. Jesus (pbuh) taught us how to pray. He said:

"Pray like this. Our father, who is in heaven, holy be your name . . . for yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever, Amen."

Many of us do, however, often finish prayers "in Jesus name." We do this to bring glory to Jesus (pbuh), because he is the Messiah, and all people of the world must be unified under him at the Second Coming in order to slay the anti-christ.

Salaam,
Bob

[Grace Seeker]

Bob, I must respectfully disagree with you. Many Christians do indeed pray to Jesus. Likewise some of us also pray to the Holy Spirit. We do this because we do not believe that we are doing any different by praying to them than when we pray to the Father.

As with regard to your understanding of the Greek term "en" in John 10:30, I share the commentary provided by Merrill Tenney on the passage:

"Iand the Father" preserves the separate individuality of the two Persons in the Godhead, the neuter pronoune "one" (hen) asserts unity of nature of equality (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:8). The Jews were quick to apprehend this statement and reacted by preparing to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he, as man, had asserted that he was one with God. For them Jesus' language did not mean simply agreement of thought or purpose but carried a metaphysical implication of diety. The Father and Son functioned as one.

In classical Greek, the term en "refers to the ultimate unity of being, eternity, that which has not become, the non-transient, underived." (Source: The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Colin Brown, ed.) If Jesus is using this term in anything even remotely having this understanding, it is no wonder that the Jews saw his statement as blasphemy. He wasn't just talking about submitting his will to another and in that sense being one as in coming to agreement with the same purpose and being sort of figuratively one, but rather Jesus was asserting an ontological truth that the very nature of his being and that of the Father were one and the same. And it is on that very basis that those of us Christians who pray to Jesus understand that we are praying to the Father as well and, for that matter, vice-versa.

[SalamChristian]

Peace Grace Seeker,

While we disagree, I am glad that we can do it civilly. I am saddened that I am not yet a full member, because I would like to send you a private message to establish fellowship.

To those who are observing our discussion, let me provide a link to a popular Christian website addressing the issue of praying only to Allah (swt). It is true that not all Christians agree on this subject. Indeed, Catholics pray even to holy men. I, however, restrict myself to only pray to Allah (swt) and not to Jesus (pbuh), but rather to end my prayers with "in Jesus name" to bring glory to the Messiah, because that is what I and many other Christians, though not all, teach:

bible-knowledge . com /pray-to-god-the-father-in-the-name-of-jesus/

Again, I had to split up this link, because (as I am new) I am technically not allowed to post links, for fear I might post something inappropriate. However, as you can see this is not an inappropriate links, and I am faithfully respecting IslamicBoard's content rules.

I hope this may also show our Muslim brothers and sisters that not all Christians are the same. The criticisms you may level against some Christians almost never apply to all Christians. And again, all faiths have diversity within them, so to expect us to agree on every issue would be a very high expectation.

To Sol:

my reading is that the two nouns have two unique referents. The Granville Sharp "rule" isn't so sharp as people claim. Specifically, this refers to the scriptural truth that both are coming (see Revelations).

Salaam Alaikum,
Bob

[Hiroshi]

Salaam Alaikum,

As a Christian, I feel obligated to clarify a few things about my religion:

Jesus (pbuh) is not Allah (swt). He is one with God. In the same verse where he says this, Jesus (pbuh) says "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” It is very important to note here that the word our Gospel records Jesus (pbuh) uses to say "I and the Father are one" is "en," which is the root of both the word "one" and "unity," "unified," and "unison." Essentially, what Jesus is saying is that by submitting completely to Allah's (swt) will, he is one with God.
-Jesus (pbuh) also says "Salam Alaikum; my peace I give to you; I do not give it to you as the world does. Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage. You heard me say to you, "I am going away and I am coming back to you." If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:27-28)

We do not pray to Jesus (pbuh). We pray to Allah (swt), and Allah (swt) alone. Jesus (pbuh) taught us how to pray. He said:

"Pray like this. Our father, who is in heaven, holy be your name . . . for yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever, Amen."

Many of us do, however, often finish prayers "in Jesus name." We do this to bring glory to Jesus (pbuh), because he is the Messiah, and all people of the world must be unified under him at the Second Coming in order to slay the anti-christ.

Salaam,
Bob

I believe that everything you say here is correct and well researched.

[Hiroshi]

( a ) that is patently false. the only individual who speaks in this manner is the one called the angel of the lord and no other angel ever speaks as such. not only that, but numerous times in the old testament is this individual attested to as god by individuals in scripture.

How about the three that appeared to Abraham at Mamre, two of whom went down to Lot in Sodom? Notice how Lot addresses them and how they speak in reply in Genesis 19:18-22.

[Hiroshi]

Bismellah Tawakkalna ala Allah wa laa hawla wa laa qowata ill beIllah


That is true but what you have mentioned above when you said:


Is not with all my respect; that wasn`t an Angel (peace be upon them all) that was Allah Al Mighty speaking my respected brother...

"Then, when Musa (Moses) had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he saw a fire in the direction of Tur (Mount). He said to his family: "Wait, I have seen a fire; perhaps I may bring to you from there some information, or a burning fire-brand that you may warm yourselves." (29) So when he reached it (the fire), he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place from the tree: "O Musa (Moses)! Verily! I am Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)! (30)" Surat Al Qasas

"And mention in the Book (this Quran) Musa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet. (51)And We called him from the right side of the Mount, and made him draw near to Us for a talk with him [Musa (Moses)]. (52)" Surat Mar`yam

"And Messengers We have mentioned to you before, and Messengers We have not mentioned to you, - and to Musa (Moses) Allah spoke directly. (164)" Surat Annisaa

"Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. If Allah had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allah had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved. If Allah had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allah does what He likes. (253)" Surat Al Baqarah

Thank you Amat Allah. Perhaps the Qur'an and the Bible disagree slightly on this point. But in the Bible numerous times a representative is spoken of as if he is the one being represented (compare Matthew 8:5-10 with Luke 7:2-9 and Matthew 20:20-21 with Mark 10:35-37).

[SalamChristian]

Hiroshi,

I am glad that we are in agreement on the relationship of Jesus (pbuh) to Allah (swt) the father. :~)

I actually think there may be possibility both the Qu'ran and the Bible are right on this subject. God speaks more directly to Moses than to anyone else. An entire 15 chapters are devoted to the build-up where Moses and the Israelites must continually purify themselves more and more so that the Lord can more fully visit Moses (Exo 19:10-12; 21-22; 19). However, as to whether this means God was face-to-face with Moses, I am doubtful. As Exodus says, "the glory of the Lord resided on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. On the Seventh day the Lord called to Moses from within the cloud." (Exodus 24:16). I interpret it this way: there was no representative for God this time, but he was not seeing Moses face-to-face. Instead, because Moses was not purified enough to be near God and he would die if he saw God face-to-face, God revealed himself indirectly in his reflected image on the mountain-top. Also, his voice was probably muted by the cloud, but that is debatable.

Interestingly, Moses seems to be disfigured by his talk with God. In the 1980s, Marvin Pope was the first to argue this point. Exodus says that after his talk with God, "the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to approach him." (Exo 34:1). The word translated as "shone" here means "horns," and Pope among others read this to mean that his face was leathery or growing boils or something.

Salaam,
Bob

[gmcbroom]

John 14:9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. That passage equates the 2 doesn't it?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi,

I am glad that we are in agreement on the relationship of Jesus (pbuh) to Allah (swt) the father. :~)

I actually think there may be possibility both the Qu'ran and the Bible are right on this subject. God speaks more directly to Moses than to anyone else. An entire 15 chapters are devoted to the build-up where Moses and the Israelites must continually purify themselves more and more so that the Lord can more fully visit Moses (Exo 19:10-12; 21-22; 19). However, as to whether this means God was face-to-face with Moses, I am doubtful. As Exodus says, "the glory of the Lord resided on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. On the Seventh day the Lord called to Moses from within the cloud." (Exodus 24:16). I interpret it this way: there was no representative for God this time, but he was not seeing Moses face-to-face. Instead, because Moses was not purified enough to be near God and he would die if he saw God face-to-face, God revealed himself indirectly in his reflected image on the mountain-top. Also, his voice was probably muted by the cloud, but that is debatable.

Interestingly, Moses seems to be disfigured by his talk with God. In the 1980s, Marvin Pope was the first to argue this point. Exodus says that after his talk with God, "the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to approach him." (Exo 34:1). The word translated as "shone" here means "horns," and Pope among others read this to mean that his face was leathery or growing boils or something.

Salaam,
Bob

Most certainly the language used to describe Moses' encounter on Mount Sinai could lead someone to suppose that he was literally face to face with God. But there is also Acts 7:38 to consider. There we are told that it was an angel that spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai.

[Hiroshi]

John 14:9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. That passage equates the 2 doesn't it?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

Well, these words of Jesus could not be meant in a literal sense because (a) no man has seen the Father (John 1:18) and (b) Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is actually the Son.

So Jesus' words would have to be understood in a non-literal sense to mean that Jesus was manifesting the Father's qualities and personality.

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi,
I think this is one of those areas where Trinitarians and Unitarians differ. They are one in the same as God isn't divided or ascribed partners. You have to remember The Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. There is only one God.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[3rddec]

It is intresting how many people say that Jesus never said specifically I am God , but those that believe this can show you tons of places where he clearly Implies it. Lets turn it around and ask where does Jesus say specifically I am not God, and not a passage that implies it. He hard plenty of opportunities as it was because the Jews believing from what he was saying and doing that he was claiming to be God that the had him arrested and tried for what to them was the height of blasphemy.

[marwen]

Lets turn it around and ask where does Jesus say specifically I am not God

this also will not help too much. For example, I can ask you to give one single post in this forum where I said "I'm not a god !". Probably you won't find any. Does it mean I'm a god ?

[Hiroshi]

It is intresting how many people say that Jesus never said specifically I am God , but those that believe this can show you tons of places where he clearly Implies it. Lets turn it around and ask where does Jesus say specifically I am not God

How about Jesus' objection in Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God."

[3rddec]

the point im making is that asking a christian to prove that Christ is God by asking the question where does Christ specifically say he is God proves nothing when the christian's valid response is say where he specifically say he is not God. Accept you have your answer. As far as the above quote goes a non christian would say look he is saying clearly he is not God where a Christian would say no he is not. He is challenging the person to come to a conclusion as to whether he is God. The person in question if you read further did not answer as to accept Christ as God he would have to give up all his possessions. He went away. Jesus uses this challenging technique a lot as he did with peter when he asks peter and the other apostles Who do you say I am. We have a free will and we can look at everything Christ did and said with the gift of the Holy Spirit answer honestly the question he still asks of everyone, "Who do you think I am ?" if you do not believe he is God or if you have attached yourself to another God just as this man was attached to his wealth even though he thought he was being religious as he did all his religious duties ( after all why did he come to ask the question unless he felt Christ was special enough to ask) , you are free to walk away too. Im sure he went back to his previous life of riches and religious practice and convinced himself with all sorts of well thought out answers that this Christ who was working all these miracles wasn't worth following.

There are none so blind as those who will not see

love and respect

[SalamChristian]

this also will not help too much. For example, I can ask you to give one single post in this forum where I said "I'm not a god !". Probably you won't find any. Does it mean I'm a god ?

Agreed.

Salam Alaikum