So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...
I should clarify my position before I go any further. I'm completely and totally Muslim, and so in no way do I think homosexual acts are okay in the eyes of God. That part is easy. The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way. In fact, the part of this that absolutely scares me the most is that non Muslims see it, and assume this is Islam. It just absolutely kills me when I see certain things (here, and in the real world) done or said by Muslims that are so obviously hateful and outside the boundaries of Islam...
Now I wanted to bring this up because I'd like to start a discussion... A discussion about the way we view homosexuals, and the way we act towards them. I know it'll be hard, but I'll ask you guys to please try and keep this civil. I think this is something we really really really need to talk about...
Here are a couple of videos that I want to share before we go any further with this. Please watch them both. (They're short )
It is quite difficult for many if not most people to keep any discussion regarding homosexuality free from emotional out bursts. Yet it is something some of us should learn to do if we are going to retain our own humanity. We may not like it, but most of us are probably going to hear more than we care to hear about it on the media. Use this thread as practice for how to handle it in real life. Perhaps a good area to begin with is to state a few rules for this thread.
1. Absolutely no name calling
2. No discussion of causes. The arguments about if it is genetic or learned behavior have been exhausted on other threads.
3. No explicit descriptions of any sexual acts. That is a violation of forum rules be it heterosexual or homosexual.
4. Act and post responsibly. Give sources for what you state as facts and if what you post is your honest opinion state that also.
5. I am going to try to keep a close eye on this thread. Stay civil this is a forum, not D day at Normandy.
Any breaking of those rules will cause a post to be deleted as OFF TOPIC
wa alaykum us-salaam
I can see why it would be a bothersome to some to direct insults at such people to their faces and perhaps not to their faces aswell, but i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
i think its best first to define and clarify some things first.
what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across
im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
Last edited by Ummu Sufyaan; 03-03-2011 at 12:36 PM.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...
Just the way I see it. Like every Muslim, obviously I 100% disapprove homosexuality. BUT we should still respect them, be kind and patient with them. Shouldn't we also make da'wah to homosexuals? Being hateful will only be driving them away from Islam.
It is equally important not to give homosexuals the impression that homosexuality is in anyway natural or "okay".
The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way.
Sadly, I think the reason some Muslims talk in this manner is to show their disapproval of homosexuality. While we should keep in mind that Allah tests each of us in a way he wishes, and this could be the test for them.
Here are a couple of videos that I want to share before we go any further with this. Please watch them both. (They're short )
I'm sorry I didn't watch the vid. I'm in a hurry at the moment.
One thing I think needs to be clarified right at the start. Feminine traits in men and masculine traits in females does not indicate homosexuality. There are many very effeminate type men who are 100% heterosexual and very many masculine women who are heterosexual.
Oddly the opposite is also true some very masculine men are homosexual a few classic examples Rock Hudson, Glenn Burke, and several famous athletes.
I know that many people disagree on this, but I think that gays should live like normal people, homosexuality is a test from Allah, and who fails should either have death penalthy or something alike. Homosexuality is not Islam. Read about the people of Lut.
As Ali ibn Abi Talib stated “ Whoever willingly submits to be a partner in homosexual activity, Allah will make him the subject of the desires of women, and will make him a stoned devil in his grave until the Day of Judgment.”
and Hisham Ibn said, “ Had Allah not informed us of the sinful deeds of the people of Lut, one would never have believed that males would commit such actions together.”
It is wrong and if u are gay, then u have to maintain urself and if u cannot marry the opposite gender, then don't use ur private parts at all.
I make Islamic Graphic. Check it out: Gallery, and check out my Youtube channel as well (warring contains music) :Crescent: :Koran: :aboo:
This is a huge issue and I am happy you made this thread bro. Committing homosexual acts is haraam but being homosexual (and not acting upon desires) in my opinion is not haraam.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
bc its discriminating if you hate the act then that is fine but to hate a person is not. Like slavery for example I hate the act of how African Americans use to be slaves in America but that does not mean that I hate Caucasians. or I hate the act of some men abusing and hitting their wives but I dont hate men.
Last edited by S.Belle; 03-03-2011 at 05:36 PM.
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why we call it 'The Present'."
I agree with you, hate is one thing, I mean we can all hate, people hate the way some Muslims do things, people hate the way some Non-muslim do things etc. However, there's a fine line between hating something and letting Shaitan incite that hate and use it to make you commit sin.
Hate is never a good thing, it will just lead to more hate and before you know it, you'll end up regretting. You don't have to mix with them, or in any way encourage them, just ignore them and let them get on with their business and you with your own.
Take the example of the Prophet(pbuh) and look at what he did in different situations. If we all acted on our hate, there would never be any peace on Earth.
"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
One danger of hatred when it becomes directed towards the person and not the act is it results in hatred of everybody that may have similar traits even if they never commit any of the acts.
A good example is heterosexual, effeminate looking teenage boys, they are often the brunt of attacks by those who hate gays, Because they look feminine some gay bashers assume they are gay.
A good guide is to hate the act, not the person and in that way you will avoid harming some who who are not what you are assuming.
i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
The same thing that's wrong with hating anyone. As others here have mentioned, we can hate the act but not the person. Sadly, this just doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of Muslims, and we seem to forget the general spirit of Islam...
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across
im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
Watch the videos please, they should clarify my position and let you know where I'm coming from.
Oh, and thanks for responding and keeping the thread civil so far everyone. Keep the posts coming.
So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...
From my experience many Muslims are completely ignorant about this topic.
I should clarify my position before I go any further. I'm completely and totally Muslim, and so in no way do I think homosexual acts are okay in the eyes of God. That part is easy. The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way. In fact, the part of this that absolutely scares me the most is that non Muslims see it, and assume this is Islam. It just absolutely kills me when I see certain things (here, and in the real world) done or said by Muslims that are so obviously hateful and outside the boundaries of Islam...
Masculinity. This is the main issue. Many people, including Muslims and non-Muslims believe that a man that behaves femininely is homosexual. This is not true because there are homosexual men that behave in a masculine manner. Whether someone is homosexual is not the main issue. The issue is whether they have engaged in an sexual act (sodomy). Sodomy can occur between men and women. This is the sin and most Muslims from my experience do not know this.
There are some men that react strongly to homosexuality to the extent where they commit an assault, battery, etc. Sometimes, I think these men want to show how masculine they are or portray their disapproval.
Therefore, some Muslims direct their hatred towards homosexuals or those that are perceived to be homosexuals because they are ignorant about Islam's stance on homosexuality and sometimes to show their disapproval of homosexuality.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
wa alaykum us-salaam
I can see why it would be a bothersome to some to direct insults at such people to their faces and perhaps not to their faces aswell, but i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
It depends on what we hate/dislike. Muslims hate the sin, such as fornication, adultery and homosexuality but we cannot divert that hatred towards the person that committed the sin.
Only the judiciary can punish those that committed these offences. The general public cannot take the law into their own hands.
what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across
im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
I think he means to treat them like human beings. Some gay men or men that behave femininely are mocked, beaten up, raped and even killed.
I can show you some examples but the content might be inappropriate for this forum due to their extreme nature.
Last edited by GuestFellow; 03-04-2011 at 11:40 PM.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
From my experience many Muslims are completely ignorant about this topic.
It definitely seems like this is the case for most.
Masculinity. This is the main issue. Many people, including Muslims and non-Muslims believe that a man that behaves femininely is homosexual. This is not true because there are homosexual men that behave in a masculine manner. Whether someone is homosexual is not the main issue. The issue is whether they have engaged in an sexual act (sodomy). Sodomy can occur between men and women. This is the sin and most Muslims from my experience do not know this.
There are some men that react strongly to homosexuality to the extent where they commit an assault, battery, etc. Sometimes, it think these men want to show how masculine they are or portray their disapproval.
Therefore, some Muslims direct their hatred towards homosexuals or those that are perceived to be homosexuals because they are ignorant about Islam's stance on homosexuality and sometimes to show their disapproval of homosexuality.
It depends on what we hate/dislike. Muslims hate the sin, such as fornication, adultery and homosexuality but we cannot divert that hatred towards the person that committed the sin.
Only the judiciary can punish those that committed these offences. The general public cannot take the law into their own hands.
While I agree that our concept of masculinity is one of the problems, I don't think its the main one. Like you mentioned earlier, its ignorance that is the bigger problem, and it's that ignorance that leads to hatred and inappropriate behavior...
I think he means to treat them like human beings. Some gay men or men that behave femininely are mocked, beaten up, raped and even killed.
I can show you some examples but the content might be inappropriate for this forum due to their extreme nature.
Yeah, the point is to stop the hate and treat people like people. I hope Ummu Sufyan responds soon, I'm interested in her response to all this
i think gay people should be living as they wih and do whatever they want. they are humans too and if they love their own kind, it is up to them.
It is up to allah (swt) to judge people, not humans.
I disagree. We are not judging people. People of the same gender are not allowed to engage in a sexual relationship. This is a serious sin.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
basically, homosexuality is forbidden in islam and is considered a crime, punishible by death. the punishement ofcourse is to be given by the court in a muslim country, if it is proven that someone was involved in homosexual act. if a person is nonmuslim in a nonmuslim country, you can preach to them in a nice way that homosexuality is not normal, against God's religion, etc.
sure it is a sin. But as Writer is saying in a nonmuslim country we can only tell them that its not allowed in gods religion, other than that, i dont think we can decide for them how they should live. As i said before they are humans to and have their rights to. I would never be a friend of them. But i strongly believe that they should have their rights to. We live in 2011 and there should be room for everyone.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
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