why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?
don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.
If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.
Hey interesting question. I'm an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't.
I came here to learn more about Islam because I realized after the Boston bombings I had all these questions come up and mostly what I was asking reflected a gross lack of understanding of it. I didn't like that, I wanted to take a fair look at Islam and gain a perspective of Muslims themselves from their experiences, ideas and worries. There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion. People who aren't atheists simply have come to a different conclusion about these things and that's perfectly fine, I respect them, and I hope they can respect me in that regard.
Maybe non-muslims are here to increase they knowledge about islam. We muslims are to many of them they neighbors and when you know your neighbor´s way to live, you can easily live with him.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
I live in a British town with a sizeable minority of Pakistani Muslims. I have always felt that for a society to be healthy and function well, all subgroups should understand each other and go along well. So I set out to build contacts with my Muslim neighbours ... but I found to my frustration that it was not easy. The Muslim community kept itself to itself. The women often don't speak much English or they stay together in their own little huddles. And speaking to men (as a woman) was clearly not appropriate.
So through an online revert friend (we are still good friends now) I came across this forum and joined. Really to learn about Islam, so I could relate to my Muslim neighbours better.
Since then I have learned much about Islam. I know how and when to wish my Muslim neighbours Ramadan/Eid/Jummah Mubarak.
I have also fasted and prayed during Ramadan and that has given me an insight into the practice of Islam too.
Sometimes I feel disheartened and upset when I read anti-Christian (or anti-other-groups) sentiments or when people blatantly misunderstand or misrepresent my faith which is so beautiful and important to me.
But I have also learned how hurt Muslims feel by anti-Islam sentiments. (Hey, after all, we are all human and share the same emotional responses. )
Most of all, I have made some great friends here. And I continue to read posts and hear views which give me hope that peace between the different faiths and worldviews can be possible.
Greetings and peace be with you MrKhan89; why are there so many religions if we are all created by the same God?
You are chosen by God, as are your family and friends, now we have to work it out. In Judaism, Christianity and Islam it says that God chose us, but how can the same God do this?
In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant, (the Ten Commandments) it is where Jesus worshiped. The Temple was destroyed and rebuilt, then destroyed again and the Islamic Dome of the Rock is built were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven to meet all the other prophets, on this same site, associated with Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.
When you look above the Wailing Wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. You queue up to go up to the mosque from the Jewish side, there is a sign that says – God is always present here. By this sign are Israeli Police with guns, riot shields are stacked against the wall ready for use.
Most of the Christian holy places are within the Muslim quarters of Jerusalem, this in turn is surrounded by the Jews.
It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.
It seems that God has linked Judaism, Christianity and Islam together on this one sacred place. God could have made our lives much easier if he had placed our three religions a hundred miles apart, but it seems that God has some greater purpose by bringing all three religions together in one place.
Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.
But why has God brought all these three religions together in so many ways, we are obviously so different?
Justice and peace on Earth depends on us trying to understand and do God’s will; despite all our differences.
In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of One God
As people who live in Muslim majority country, my non-Muslim relatives and friends must be have know what and how is Islam. But they never become Muslim and I never want to ask why because I understand why.
Religion is belief. It's means what is someone believe. If they believe their religion is the only right path, it's okay. I respect their belief just like they respect my belief on Islam.
"If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation (religion) but that He may test you in what He has given you. So strive (as in a race) in good deeds." So, Allah made us different..
NL- "It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion" .... which makes me think that perhaps you have not reached the 'culmination point' but at a temporary pinnacle
Eric H, the three religions are in fact only one, just people made it different. Yes, we are very different, but we can be the same in faith if we can peel the layers to get to the underlying message as opposed to personalised ideals. Just my opinion.
I’m an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't…There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion.
That is as close as I’ve ever seen an atheist come to coming right out and admitting (to themselves, I mean) that the only real reason they don’t believe is because their prior exposure to one particular religion has soured them on everything even smacking of religion and as a result their minds are now completely closed to it. I’m sorry if I’m being too blunt or confrontational here but it’s difficult not to comment on the obvious when someone first uses phrases like “there has never been a desire or possibility in any way”, “I don’t see how it’s possible”, and “I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that”, and then turns right around and says in the very same breath, “It’s not stubbornness.” A “culmination of thought”? Being “lead to a conclusion”? Really?? Is there no corner of your conscience which recognizes these euphemisms?
All the same I commend you on your attitude as regards the Boston bombings. We need more people like you.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I think a big misconception among Christian Atheists is that they think Islam and Christianity are the exact same and that Islam offers the same thing as Christianity. That is definitely not true. In that case, why would Christian even become Muslims then? I think that is a relevant question for an Atheist to ask.
To any Atheists, please do look up for information on Islam before you decide on thinking all religions are the same. In essence many are, but there are many differences between each religion. Having read up on many religions in my life so far, I know this very well. So take it from one who knows from reading a lot. Reading more may do you some good.
That is as close as I’ve ever seen an atheist come to coming right out and admitting (to themselves, I mean) that the only real reason they don’t believe is because their prior exposure to one particular religion has soured them on everything even smacking of religion and as a result their minds are now completely closed to it. I’m sorry if I’m being too blunt or confrontational here but it’s difficult not to comment on the obvious when someone first uses phrases like “there has never been a desire or possibility in any way”, “I don’t see how it’s possible”, and “I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that”, and then turns right around and says in the very same breath, “It’s not stubbornness.” A “culmination of thought”? Being “lead to a conclusion”? Really?? Is there no corner of your conscience which recognizes these euphemisms?
All the same I commend you on your attitude as regards the Boston bombings. We need more people like you.
I think you've misunderstood me, I honestly don't think my experience and reasoning as an atheist for saying I can't become a Christian or Muslim or whatever is different than any other atheist. Just ask any atheist, they would say that current arguments for each faith in the form of biblical text, apostolic accounts and historical information are inadequate in proving the existence of God, gods or any such beings. Apparently you are still accusing me of being stubborn, how? We simply have additional criteria for putting faith in a being that very likely does not exist at all, no it's faith itself that we are incompatible with since our very being demands sufficient evidence of such a thing in order for us to give it such strong consideration. Without that, it is simply a fictional character. When I claimed it is simply not possible for me to become Muslim that's what I meant, Islam (what admittedly tiny amount I know about it) has simply failed to provide enough evidence to back up its claims. That's no fault of my own, and it's nothing I can really do about. If you feel differently please supply me with that evidence without baseless assertions.
And I never said I was "soured" in any way by religion, once again this reflects a common misconception that theists have about atheists; that we hate religion or look only at the negatives and that drives us away. Perhaps some atheists have bad experiences, I can't speak for them, all my experiences have been positive and enjoyable, but that doesn't mean I have to make it into my life's meaning. Please I encourage you to do more research and reassess what the meaning of being an atheist is, because I think you have some misunderstanding and assumptions clouding your judgement of it. I am also sorry if this seems blunt. Thank you.
Apparently you are still accusing me of being stubborn, how?...When I claimed it is simply not possible for me to become Muslim that's what I meant.
That is how! I couldn't help but notice also that you've admitted that you know a very tiny amount about this religion that it's simply not possible for you to join....
And yet you still ask me to supply you with evidence. Why should I bother?
By my reference to a bad experience you perhaps think I'm referring to you being raised by an abusive preacher or something. That's not what I meant at all. I'm well aware that this isn't a movie we're living in. Real life is subtler and less dramatic (most of the time, at least). Our choices of words can reveal a lot about us:
After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general...
Has it not occurred to you that people practically always believe that what they're doing mentally is really just "logic and reason"?
It's food for thought anyway. I never claimed to know any of these things for certain.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 05-07-2013 at 01:53 AM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I think a big misconception among Christian Atheists is that they think Islam and Christianity are the exact same and that Islam offers the same thing as Christianity. That is definitely not true. In that case, why would Christian even become Muslims then? I think that is a relevant question for an Atheist to ask.
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.
So if Islam is truly different, and I admit I know very little about it (and I'm not asking right now to point to a specific example) but do you strongly believe there is something for an atheist to learn that would satisfy their requirement of concrete evidence that everything about it is real and true? If you do believe that, then I happily accept the challenge and I will learn about it. But right off the bat, what I got from the OP post is essentially a threat that once I have taken in an interest in Islam to reject it would have dire consequences. Do you not understand how that probably more than anything is extremely unconvincing and a guaranteed turnoff to any atheist? Threats in any argument almost always invalidate any shed of possibility that a logical, well-reasoned discussion can even take place.
Greetings NL - "Just ask any atheist, they would say that current arguments for each faith in the form of biblical text, apostolic accounts and historical information are inadequate in proving the existence of God, gods or any such beings."
That is the thing. It is hard to argue on faith using the biblical text, or any other text for that matter with the exception of the Quran. It is just whether we can let go of the pre conceived ideas.
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.
So if Islam is truly different, and I admit I know very little about it (and I'm not asking right now to point to a specific example) but do you strongly believe there is something for an atheist to learn that would satisfy their requirement of concrete evidence that everything about it is real and true? If you do believe that, then I happily accept the challenge and I will learn about it. But right off the bat, what I got from the OP post is essentially a threat that once I have taken in an interest in Islam to reject it would have dire consequences. Do you not understand how that probably more than anything is extremely unconvincing and a guaranteed turnoff to any atheist? Threats in any argument almost always invalidate any shed of possibility that a logical, well-reasoned discussion can even take place.
Well, I suggested Christian Atheist because you rejected religion based off of the faith of Christianity, not any other religion. You are an Atheist like any other nonetheless. My pointing out you were Christian was to make a point that you had a perspective of religion based on that view. There are Hindu Atheists, Muslim Atheists, etc. And those are only those who rejected those religions. Some are born Atheist and are only Atheist.
And as to knowing if Islam is concrete and true based on some evidence, i don't know if an Atheist who learned about Islam would consider it true or not. What I believe may be concrete evidence, and you might still reject it altogether based on your own understanding of things. To explain, imagine the concept of revelation from God. I have a friend who is Agnostic with whom I speak about religion more than almost anyone else I have ever known (quite literally). Yet, despite anything I tell him, the one thing he does not give the time of day and considers to be so outlandish as to not even be worth his time, is the idea that God speaks to man. He things all of that is pure hocus pocus and will never listen to anything like that. Yet, religion is based purely off of Prophethood, the very fact that God spoke to the Prophets of old.
Furthermore, what these Prophets spoke of was the unseen, things which cannot be known to man, yet they are given as knowledge to them by God. This could mean something which happens and they were not present at but they learned of it, a future event, a fact of life or a teaching and story from a past religion they never knew of, etc. Other things include miracles and certain supernatural instances which no magician or person can fake but which are considered true for whatever reason. If you give the idea of Prophethood a chance, then you can engage in a meaningful discussion. But if you are one of those people who would never want to talk about it, then you will not be able to understand Islam at all. The whole religion was revealed by God. If you take that away, then you will never understand it and then you cannot consider yourself open-minded in a discussion. I don't consider my Agnostic friend open-minded, though he likes to assume he is.
As for threats of being punished for rejecting Islam, I don't know why you would worry about it since you don't believe in a God in the first place. That threat shouldn't mean anything to you. I had another friend who I told about the punishment of Hell (based on a question she asked), and she said she wouldn't mind Hell. I told her it is a terrible place, but she said she would still enjoy it. I told her good luck and enjoy being burnt. She still didn't get the idea that Hell is made to be a place we don't like. So, my point is that if you don't believe in it, then it shouldn't matter. But I agree that it is a big turnoff for discussion.
As for a well-reasoned logical discussion, we would have to point out from the very beginning what entails a well-reasoned and logical discussion. I already told you that it has to be open-minded. We would have to know what the purpose in mind is as well. If it is for you to understand Islam better, then you have to open up to new perspectives. If it is on the idea of Islam and how an Atheist perceives it, then it would be philosophical and we on this forum would have to adapt (although, since we are Muslim we have certain limits on what we can say so that we do not displease God). That being said, you explain the purpose of a discussion you want, and then we can go over what would constitute a well-reasoned logical discussion.
If anything I said wasn't clear, let me know. I am just about to go to sleep so I might be a little off in my thinking right now.
That is the thing. It is hard to argue on faith using the biblical text, or any other text for that matter with the exception of the Quran. It is just whether we can let go of the pre conceived ideas.
Why is the Quran different to you than the others?
And what pre-conceived ideas are you referring to?
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by.
I think for the sake of this discussion Ahmad referred to you as a Christian atheist because you seem to be (according to your first post) an atheist who grew up in the Christian culture and therefore has experiences and knowledge of Christian beliefs.
As somebody who is married to an atheist, I don't buy into this "being too stubborn to accept God" thinking. In my experience atheists like to think things through clearly, methodically and rationally ... and simply come away with the conclusion that the existence of God makes no sense to them.
Any atheist who through his/her thinking and pondering came away convinced that God can and does exist (and those people are around), would cease to be an atheist and become a believer. Why would anybody say "I believe that God exists but I'm too proud to admit it?
We are each on our own journey. Let's keep it that way.
Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by.
I think for the sake of this discussion Ahmad referred to you as a Christian atheist because you seem to be (according to your first post) an atheist who grew up in the Christian culture and therefore has experiences and knowledge of Christian beliefs.
As somebody who is married to an atheist, I don't buy into this "being too stubborn to accept God" thinking. In my experience atheists like to think things through clearly, methodically and rationally ... and simply come away with the conclusion that the existence of God makes no sense to them.
Any atheist who through his/her thinking and pondering came away convinced that God can and does exist (and those people are around), would cease to be an atheist and become a believer. Why would anybody say "I believe that God exists but I'm too proud to admit it?
We are each on our own journey. Let's keep it that way.
I was just what Glo writes. Atheist Christian before. I was member of church in cause my parents. But I am I, not them. I read many religions, they teachings, history before I understood that I have to be muslim.
Thanks Glo. I may understand myself better when I read your posts.
Generally you most probably have already come across the answers to your questions in other threads, like about muslim belief in the Quran as being the word of Allah, unchanged, protected until the end of times etc. the statements it makes, whether scientific or otherwise, no contradictions in message and so forth.
For me, personally, all the prophets preached the same underlying message. Believe in God and to do good things. As humans race matured over time, the messages also became more elaborate, like the Torah teaching the 'mechanics' of life -to do unto others what you expect others to do unto you. The Bible brought it to the next level, which is to teach the concept of forgiveness (so to end generational feuds) and with that the Quran came to complete the teachings by putting about laws on how to live in a community. It is a continuation from the previous Books and the Book to end all Books.
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