How one can fight for secular society and freedom of worship at the same time

[WarriorforMarie]

I am posting this here because the forum will not let me post on my introduction thread because I am a newbie, even
though I was the one who started that thread!

This is in response to Signor and Eric H.


Thank, I am glad you have enjoyed reading my post. In regards to the issues I am fighting for I will explain.

I fight for secularism because I do not believe people should be forced to live according to someone else's religious values. This does not mean that I am against people practicing a religion. In fact, I think it is a good thing. I am not religious myself but I've studied some decent works by political scientists on the subject. On of the best is Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone" which asserts that it is a good thing for citizens of a country to belong to several different civil society organizations (churches or mosques could be one). By engaging in activities with other citizens they are able to build civil trust and reinforce the sense of community. I also think the United States benefits from having people of many different religious backgrounds because then there are multiple perspectives and points of view which will make the United States stronger.

When I fight for the rights of Muslims, Christians, etc. to be able to practice their religion it is not because I want people to become members of these religions. It is because I believe people should have the right to practice the religion they want to without fear of harassment. In the United States there have been a couple of times when Muslims in a community wanted to build a center and the local population tried to stop them, Murfeesboro was one case. When that happened I wrote letters to the local representatives. I think Muslims should be able to practice freely in Christian countries, and that Christians should practice freely in Muslim countries. Also, from reading the posts on here I know that some people do not like Shia very much and I do not want to offend but I think that Shia should be free to practice and worship in Sunni countries (and of course, Sunni should be free to practice in Shia countries). I guess what I am fighting for is freedom of worship.

I hope that helps explain things.

[Hulk]

Secularism as a philosophical program is terrifying. One really does not need to adhere to it to practice religious freedom. From what I understand, there is a difference between secularism and a "secular government".

[Futuwwa]

Secularism as a philosophical program is terrifying. One really does not need to adhere to it to practice religious freedom. From what I understand, there is a difference between secularism and a "secular government".

Chances are that neither he does support the "secularism" you are denouncing.

[Abz2000]

Maybe because you are unable to delve past the surface of words and labels used to manipilate you,
In Islam we are told that secularism is disbelief and disbelief is a form of satanism.

You claimed that

I fight for secularism because I do not believe people should be forced to live according to someone else's religious values.

Yet seemed to overlook the fact that secularism itself is a "religion".
It is a religion built by the "gods" you submit to, the despots, the kings, the politicians.

the term used in Islam for so called "religion" is "deen"- which means "way of life", and someone who claims to be a "secular" "Muslim" in reality is deceiving himself by claiming that his way of life is submission to politicians/kings/despots and their laws and dictates AND submission to God and His laws and dictates.
And ANYONE with a single iota of sense would be able to tell you that only a believing king who rules by the Laws of Islam would rule within the guidelines of Islam. Any other would conflict and create a confusing dichotomy like that which you see in the west. (manipulation, deception, undeclared wars, pretended equality etc).

The Quran clearly calls so called "secularism" a "religion" in surah Yusuf.
It is called "deen al Malik", the way of life enjoined by the king (with emphasis on law and order).
When your politicians decide your ways of living for you, dos donts etc, they are creating your "religion".

And when your "religion" means "without God" (secularism), it is called kufr, in Islam.
One cannot be a "disbeliever believer", (know wot I mean?

In contrast to a "deen" ("religion") you only have "anarchism" remaining.

n. pl. an·ar·chies
1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/d...1&word=anarchy

.
for anarchists "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is the status quo, and that is the motto of satanists. (google the phrase if it pleases you).

And If you please, Google the term "deen" "Arabic" "meaning", it may turn out to be a life changer.
Peace,
Abz

[WarriorforMarie]

Well, I Googled the term "deen" "Arabic" "meaning", One of the top sites was quranicteachings dot org


Their definitions for "deen" and "malik" seemed to correspond to what you wrote. They also had this to say about religion...

"ReligionThere is no definitive agreed-upon definition of religion. It has the following meanings:
-Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
-A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
-The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
-A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
-A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

The important part was SUPERNATURAL. Secularism has an absence of supernatural aspects to it so how can it be a religion? You seem eager, but I think your sources for political knowledge are inadequate. If you like, I provide you with a list of books that should broaden your understanding. That way you can avoid making confused comments.

[WarriorforMarie]

Secularism as a philosophical program is terrifying. One really does not need to adhere to it to practice religious freedom. From what I understand, there is a difference between secularism and a "secular government".

What do you mean by "Secularism as a philosophical program" and what aspects of it are terrifying?

[Hulk]

Since you brought up that you are fighting for secularism why dont you define it first so that we can have a better understanding. I will read/respond when I can inshaAllah.

[Futuwwa]

Since you brought up that you are fighting for secularism why dont you define it first so that we can have a better understanding. I will read/respond when I can inshaAllah.

That's the right question to ask, and the one you should have asked right away. When he says that he supports secularism, what matters is what he means by "secularism", not whatever strawman we conjure of it.

[Hulk]

That's the right question to ask, and the one you should have asked right away. When he says that he supports secularism, what matters is what he means by "secularism", not whatever strawman we conjure of it.

No, there are no "multiple meanings" of it but rather what someone might think it means. I did not "conjure" whatever it is you are imagining. I merely stated my opinion secularism as a philosophical program and mentioned that "secularism" and a "secular government" are not necessarily the same. So please calm down.

[truthseeker63]

Secularism is Haram.

[greenhill]

Interesting consideration.... why though?

Islam follows the law of the Quran and hadiths and sunnah, whilst secularism follows the law of man. How can the two co-exist? Talking about the Deen as opposed to other faiths here.

[جوري]

you can't be a fascist and a liberal they're a contradiction, you can't be a capitalist and a communist, it is a contradiction, you can't be a Muslim and a secular it is a contradiction. I hope the simple exercise clarifies things for everyone!

best,

[sister herb]

Interesting discussion. I hope it doesn´t end to kind of comments like "this and that is haram".

Is this what you mean about word "secularism?

I fight for secularism because I do not believe people should be forced to live according to someone else's religious values.

If yes, then you fight for freedom of think and believe freely, by the other words; for some very basic rights of humanity.

Nice to meet you, pal, I think I fight for the same basic rights too (but I don´t call it as secularism ).

[glo]

Warrior is proposing that in secular state all people are treated equal - whether they believe in God or not and regardless of their religious affiliation.

Secularism protects both believers and non-believers

Secularism seeks to ensure and protect freedom of religious belief and practice for all citizens. Secularism is not about curtailing religious freedoms; it is about ensuring that the freedoms of thought and conscience apply equally to all believers and non-believers alike.

Religious Freedom

Secularism seeks to defend the absolute freedom of religious and other belief, and protect the right to manifest religious belief insofar as it does not impinge disproportionately on the rights and freedoms of others. Secularism ensures that the right of individuals to freedom of religion is always balanced by the right to be free from religion.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/what-is-secularism.html

We may assert that in our religion people from other religions are granted equal rights and status ... but if we are honest, when we look around in the world, we have to admit that that is very often not the case.
In 'Christian' nations non-Christians often feel discriminated against or persecuted and in 'Muslim' nations non-Muslims feel the same.

Whilst I don't know if secular states could really live up to such a high ideal (or if indeed we have truly secular states where this could be put to the test), I like the principle and I can see that a no-religion-rules-principle may be best for everybody.

Having said that, I know that the Church of England, which is the official church in the UK, speaks out very strongly for followers of other faiths too, and that is appreciated by people of many other faiths.

There is a fear amongst believers that in a purely secular state spirituality and a belief in God would eventually be squeezed out ... and I can relate to that fear too.

[sister herb]

^^ Good points, Glo.

[Signor]

I am neither advocating nor supporting his views but he made a response to me and Eric H regards to "an interesting mixture of issues to fight for". This what he wrote in his Intro:

The one woman who was the love of my life. I have sworn myself to forever be a warrior on her behalf. I fight to protect the weak anywhere I can. I protect women from abusive men. I protect Muslims in countries where they are the minority, I protect Christians in countries where they are the minority. I fight for the weak and I will never stop. With my last breath I will fight for women's rights and secularism.

All of what he said in first post was explanation of his words/his view/his perception of looking at things,thats all

[Futuwwa]

No, there are no "multiple meanings" of it but rather what someone might think it means. I did not "conjure" whatever it is you are imagining. I merely stated my opinion secularism as a philosophical program and mentioned that "secularism" and a "secular government" are not necessarily the same. So please calm down.

Words mean exactly what we mean when we use them. There is no such thing as an objectively correct definition of a word. Every word is made-up.

[greenhill]

Makes sense seeing the point from a non muslim perspective. Thanks for the reiteration, Glo.

If it were to be a 'perfect' world, there would be a place for everyone. Those who choose to live following various laws merely have to make that 'move' or jihad. The muslim have their caliphate nation, various other faiths if they choose to or remain as the separated secular states.

Mistrust amongst people is something not easily controlled. Seeds of discord are easily sown. As they say, prevention is better than cure, having large groups or sects living in a loose community has the ingredients of turning volatile if serious effort are not made to accept the differences and to just concentrate on your own destiny. It only takes someone acting out of stupidity to incite things with terrible consequences. Imagine living in an area where all practices are allowed. We will have church bells, the Adhan (call to prayer) and all the other calls ringing in our airwaves constantly. Would everybody accept this?

Personally, I'd love to have the Caliphate system back. A totally islamic community. In Syaa Allah.



Peace

[glo]

Personally, I'd love to have the Caliphate system back. A totally islamic community. In Syaa Allah

Would the Caliphate system treat all people as equals though?
As far as I understand non-Muslims would only ever be second-class citizens - tolerated and protected, yes, but with less rights.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It's a while since I have read anything about the Caliphats.

[Hulk]

Thank you for the link glo though I am very suprised that a website called "secularism" actually speaks very little of "what is secularism".

A muslim does not necessarily have to be against a "secular state", for the simple reason that as many here have mentioned it allows everyone to "practice their religion". So a muslim can live in a country with a "secular government", so long as they are able to practice their religion.

Secularism in itself is much more than simply "religious freedom".

Please take a moment to read up (non-islamic source), note that I said "secularism as a philosophical program".
http://atheism.about.com/od/seculari...larization.htm

I'd also recommend reading Prof. Syed Naquib Al Attas's book "Islam And Secularism"
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/684492.Syed_Muhammad_Naquib_al_Attas
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Also one can youtube "the impact of secular media worldviews" to see one of the reasons why i said it to be terrifying. The video was made by christians who perhaps share a similar worry.

Words mean exactly what we mean when we use them. There is no such thing as an objectively correct definition of a word. Every word is made-up.

So if someone says that they reject Islam because "Islam is racist against blacks.", based on his understanding from what he read somewhere. You would agree that what he is rejecting is really Islam?