(1) In what way is the Qur'an uncreated and eternal?
(2) If the Quran is uncreated and eternal, what is its relationship to Allah? In other words, is the Quran its own uncreated and eternal substance existing co-eternally with Allah? Or must the Quran be in some sense Allah?
(3) Optional third question: if a book can be uncreated and eternal is it possible in an Islamic paradigm that a person be uncreated and eternal?
I know Muslims can have a diverse set of opinions on a topic, if you contribute an answer to this discussion I kindly ask you mention what the basis is for your position. In other words, whether you are expressing your own independent understanding, or whether it's based on a scholar or school of thought (e.g. Ashari aqeedah). I ask only because I am a non-Muslim and this will provide some clarity on how reflective of the average Muslim a particular opinion is.
As far as I know, the Quran is compiled of excerpts from the 'Book in Heaven'.
In the Quran it says (can't remember where off hand) that if all the oceans of earth were ink and all the trees were pens, the seas would dry twice over and the words of Allah would not finish.
By default, the Quran is not even a drop in the ocean on the wealth of knowledge but just a tiny bit that is relevant to us that is revealed and kept verbatim. From the time Allah created the Pen and the Tablet, His words started to fill it (perhaps way before the Big Bang, even). What we receive in the Quran are extracts from those 'words', no doubt. (added with edit: I suppose all the other Books were also excerpts from the Book in Heaven but no longer verbatim).
I'm not sure of your question.... Can't get my head around the 'uncreated/created, eternal' concept....
No mystery here sojourn. He answered you already. And by his saying he can't get his head around it - - - he was referring to your confusion. He himself is pretty clear on the issue.
No mystery here sojourn. He answered you already. And by his saying he can't get his head around it - - - he was referring to your confusion. He himself is pretty clear on the issue.
Scimi
Peace Scimi, well if there is no mystery about I'd be interested in your understanding. I invite you to answer some or all of the questions I posed above.
The quran is the word of God. It was in existence as part of the "loh e mahfooz" ( the preserved tablet or scroll) which is the totality of all creation, recorded on a scroll which God has... a very small part of it is revealed to us in the form of the Quran. The Quran itself is a guidance from God to humanity.
The idea that it is the word of God is hard to wrap heads around for some because we start to discuss the metaphysical realities which we can only take educated guesses at, thus your line of enquiry. For all purposes intended, I've answered points 1 and 2...
In response to point 3 ... no. If we have a beginning then we are created... thus we are not eternal.
Peace be upon you Sojourn,
The Qur'an is uncreated because it is the Words of Allah. Words cannot exist separately from the speaker (to paraphrase the fatwa I linked to earlier). Speech is one of the Attributes of Allah. However, human beings are created. There is no uncreated human being.
I gave you a very similar answer on the other thread where I linked to a fatwa giving more explanation. It is from a contemporary scholar, however this is not a new scholarly position. As you mentioned, early scholars such as Imam Ahmad (rahimahu Allah) also explained this point.
greenhill
Surah Luqman Chapter 31 of The Noble Quran verse 27
31:27 And if whatever trees upon the earth were pens and the sea [was ink], replenished thereafter by seven [more] seas, the words of Allah would not be exhausted. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
The Qur'an is uncreated and eternal because it is the Words of Allah. Words cannot exist separately from the speaker (to paraphrase the fatwa I linked to earlier). Speech is one of the Attributes of Allah. However, human beings are created. There is no uncreated human being.
So the Qur'an that a person can hold in their hands or recite is uncreated and eternal? And by uncreated and eternal must we ultimately say that in some sense the Quran is Allah?
- To try and make it simple, when God thought of something -he created the word in his mind, but because he always knew, this is where people can get confused as there is no time difference as God is All-Knowing, so here knowing everything and created the words at the same time-which was always there.
- God is perfect, All-Wise and in control of himself, he alone is in control of his thoughts, to say that the thoughts of birds etc just popped there or that it was a part of him is really wrong-here again just because he always knew the future doesn't mean that he didn't create the words either.
Salaam Sister,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would like to correct you a bit here as to what Imam Ghazzali (r.a) has explained about Allah (swt), it is in reference to what you've said.
Know that Allah (swt) will is Eternal, so is His Knowledge Eternal and so is everything within His Knowledge i.e. knowledge about entire creation Eternal and these along with all other attributes of His is Eternal.
Origination for example you've said that "thought of a bird" is a typical example of Origination and origination and a will for it does not come at the same time from Whose entire attributes are Eternal.
So the knowledge of this bird or any other creature was always within His Eternal Knowledge but the origination did not come in to being till an appointed time He had determined and His Will is also Eternal. His will to make an event at an appointed time has got connection with His Eternal Knowledge and so if there was a rise of a new Will to create a bird or anything as you say then His Will remains confined to a place and event and that would make His Will NOT Eternal and which is false.
So since His Knowledge is Eternal and His Speech which is also His attribute is Eternal and so His Words are part of His being which are also Eternal and which includes the Quran.
Imam says "...If you understand that God has got Knowledge of everything, understand also that along with His being He has got attribute of Speech and understand that His Words represent His speech"
And so His commandments in the Quran regarding Shariah already existed in His Knowledge and His words, however their essence came down to us for an appointed time i.e. when mankind would reach a certain level of understanding so they could be revealed to us and be practiced.
If we were to believe that His Will rises in another object and not in His Being then He cannot will just as we humans can only execute an action if we come to acquire knowledge of it and not otherwise. So His Will to reveal the Quran already existed in His Being and it did NOT arise at the time of its revelation.
So the Qur'an that a person can hold in their hands or recite is uncreated and eternal? And by uncreated and eternal must we ultimately say that in some sense the Quran is Allah?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
When you folks say the Quran is eternal and uncreated, does that also refer to the "earthly Quran" or just the heavenly scroll?
I think there's a confusion here.
By Qur'an we mean the actual words of Allah , not the printed form of it. The printed/written form is known as Mushaf (pronounced as MuS-Haf) but since Mushaf contains the words of Allah, most people usually refer to it as the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is what is recited in the prayers. It is the speech of Allah which has been revealed on the heart of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad . It is preserved in the hearts of millions of Huffaz worldwide. It is the most recited book on earth. It is not an object that can be created or destroyed.
By Qur'an we mean the actual words of Allah , not the printed form of it. The printed/written form is known as Mushaf (pronounced as MuS-Haf) but since Mushaf contains the words of Allah, most people usually refer to it as the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is what is recited in the prayers. It is the speech of Allah which has been revealed on the heart of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad . It is preserved in the hearts of millions of Huffaz worldwide. It is the most recited book on earth. It is not an object that can be created or destroyed.
Am I understanding correctly then, that when the Quran is recited by a Haffiz that what is being recited is eternal and uncreated?
Every creature that created by Allah will die when its time has come. Living creature like human, animal, plantation will die when their time to die have come. Non living creature like universe including stars and planets will 'die' when the doomsday has come.
But will the message in Qur'an die?. Of course not, because the message in Qur'an (not the Qur'an as book) is not creature like I have described above.
Then why there is statement that Qur'an is uncreated and eternal?.
Actually this 'debate' was started when Mutazilah sect issued statement that describe Qur'an as creature. It invited critic from other Muslims the said, if Qur'an was creature, then Qur'an will die when its time has come.
Qur'an is uncreated as creature, and of course, Qur'an is eternal.
Am I understanding correctly then, that when the Quran is recited by a Haffiz that what is being recited is eternal and uncreated?
As quoted from Fiqh al-Akbar,
“The Qur’an is Allah’s word, High is He, in pages transcribed, in hearts protected, on tongues recited, and on the Prophet revealed. Our utterance of the Qur’an is created. Our writing of it is created. Our recitation of it is created. And the Qur’an is uncreated.”
“And He speaks, not as our speech. We speak with tools and letters while Allah, High is He, speaks without a tool and without letters. The letters are created. And the speech of Allah, High is He, is uncreated.”
These are important matters of Aqeedah and we advise the members not to speak on this topic without referring to the works/sayings of the scholars.
I know this is a delicate subject and precision in language is necessary. From what I gather the Quran in this world exists on paper, on the tongues of people reciting, and in the hearts of those who memorized it. The Quran in any of these senses is created. And this "earthly Quran" is a reflection of the heavenly, uncreated, and eternal Quran that exists in Allah. When Muslims speak of the Quran being uncreated, they refer not to the mushaf, not to the recitation, nor to the memorization but to the heavenly Quran.
Is this accurate from an Islamic point of view? I think the challenge is understanding that the earthly and heavenly Quran are distinct yet the same.
The Quran is the Speech of Allaah The Almighty and it is not created, as proven by the Quran, the Sunnah (Prophetic tradition) and the consensus of the righteous predecessors, since it is one of the Attributes of Allaah The Almighty, which are not created. No reasonable person can separate between the attribute and the being to whom it belongs, making them two different essences.
This much is sufficient to realise the immense status and importance of the Qur'an. The question is how much importance do we attach to the Qur'an and what are we doing to benefit from it.
I will close this thread so that we avoid saying anything out of place with regards to the Noble Qur'an. If you are interested you can consult the numerous works of the scholars on this subject.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
, not the printed form of it. The printed/written form is known as Mushaf (pronounced as MuS-Haf) but since Mushaf contains the words of Allah, most people usually refer to it as the Qur'an. 
. It is preserved in the hearts of millions of Huffaz worldwide. It is the most recited book on earth. It is not an object that can be created or destroyed.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks