Overpopulation makes me worry

[ardianto]

When I was a kid, every traveling I always saw the beautiful scenery such as gardens, rice fields, or other green areas. Sometimes I also visited the green area to enjoy the natural coolness that filled with plants.

Now ?. Many of those green areas that have been lost, changed into residential areas. The cause is because the human population continues to grow. Yes, this is what happens if the population continues to grow. Green nature will be lost and turned into a concrete jungle, the weather will be hotter, and the air will be dirty.

This is what makes me often worry about the fate of my descendants, because I know, overpopulation will cause damage to the earth. It has been seen now. Earth has become hotter, floods and landslides occur everywhere.

Yes, I often worry, what will happen to my descendants if the earth no longer hospitable to humans ?.

[new2010]

wa Alaikum Assalam,

how are you bro? SubhanAllah, we actually were discussing about this topic in the thread about "social freezing". I really can understand your worries, but I am always wondering either, whether we're allowed to think like that. I would really be interested in a view of a scholar on this. However, I personally can not image that we're are allowed to destroy our environment, when only saying Allah will straighten it. Are we not those who are guests on this planet and should use it in a good manner?

[M.I.A.]

Well its about adaptability, in my country there is still a lot of greenery.. Probably in your country also.

I guess as cities expand and new settlements are built better planning and architecture can make the most of preserving those spaces.

Maybe alternative energy and fuels will go a long way to ensuring there survival within built up areas.

You look at places like america and the entire population of the world could probably fit into it comfortability..

Alternate methods of feeding people and growing crops will go a long way to keeping quality of life similar to how it is now..

Hopefully.

The future is bright as long as we keep working towards building it rather than destroying it.

God willing.

...its a management thing.

[Signor]

When I was a kid, every traveling I always saw the beautiful scenery such as gardens, rice fields, or other green areas. Sometimes I also visited the green area to enjoy the natural coolness that filled with plants.

Now ?. Many of those green areas that have been lost, changed into residential areas. The cause is because the human population continues to grow. Yes, this is what happens if the population continues to grow. Green nature will be lost and turned into a concrete jungle, the weather will be hotter, and the air will be dirty.

I think its because of urbanization and industrialization of modern world instead of overpopulation which could be managed if done properly.Often,this verse is quoted when people talk about the conditions of blue planet.

Corruption has appeared throughout the land and sea by (reason of) what the hands of people have earned, so He (i.e. Allah) may let them taste part of (the consequences of) what they have done that perhaps they will return (to righteousness).[Quran 30:41]

[ardianto]

wa Alaikum Assalam,

how are you bro? SubhanAllah, we actually were discussing about this topic in the thread about "social freezing". I really can understand your worries, but I am always wondering either, whether we're allowed to think like that. I would really be interested in a view of a scholar on this. However, I personally can not image that we're are allowed to destroy our environment, when only saying Allah will straighten it. Are we not those who are guests on this planet and should use it in a good manner?

Alhamdulillah, I am fine.

Social freezing and overpopulation are two different topics. That's why I made this thread with purpose to draw those who want to discuss about overpopulation, so your thread will still focus on scholarly view on social freezing.

Indeed, the trigger that made me created this thread is discussion about overpopulation in your thread. I totally disagree if the problem of overpopulation is just a myth because I can see the impact of population growth toward environment.

[Scimitar]

overpopulation is a myth - anyone who thinks the world is overpopulated clearly doesn't believe in Allah fully as the provider and sustainer of all creation.

Appearance And Reality Are Always Different - take a spiritual approach instead of a material one which your eyes deceive you with.

Scimi

[ardianto]

I think its because of urbanization and industrialization of modern world instead of overpopulation which could be managed if done properly.Often,this verse is quoted when people talk about the conditions of blue planet.

No bro, that's happened not because urbanization, but because population growth. I know it because I witness it.

When me and my friends were young we were living together with our parents and our siblings. But then after we got married we need to have new homes. This is the cause of the growth of residential areas. Now mostly of my friends, and also my sister, are living in areas which were previously paddy fields and plantation areas in 80's.

Indeed, apartment can reduce the growth of area that used for residential purpose. But how about poor people who can't afford to buy or rent apartment?. So the growth of slum areas is something that unavoidable.

Population growth led to the growth of buildings and roads, and this will cause the ground covered by concrete and asphalt that will prevent the absorption of water. This is the cause of flood that often happen nowadays. .

overpopulation is a myth - anyone who thinks the world is overpopulated clearly doesn't believe in Allah fully as the provider and sustainer of all creation.

Appearance And Reality Are Always Different - take a spiritual approach instead of a material one which your eyes deceive you with.

Scimi

The earth indeed, large enough to accommodate more humans. However, we cannot just think about available space, but we must also think about the balance between human and nature. Too many population will cause damage of nature balance in support the human life.

Do you know how many forests that have been changed into plantation areas?. Do you know how many species of animal that have been and will extinct because they lost their habitat due to human population growth?.

[Scimitar]

Yes I do, and I see that happening due to the abuse human beings have put the world thru due to their incessant need to burn fossil fuels so they can drive industry and technology forward....

.... is it right? NO.

What is a viceregent?

A viceregent is someone who is a care taker for something.

Allah placed us humans here on earth as care takers - we Muslims know that, but the rest of the world doesn't. They think this life is all fun and frolic. To feed that lifestyle, they need constant distraction - so they don't have to think about their immortal soul. As a result of this selfishness and the media propagations of "consume consume consume" we have unfortunately - consumed too much... you know what this modernity reminds me of? this consumer lifestyle? It reminds me of those who corrupt every good idea and twist it around to justify their evil intentions - namely Ya'juj wa Ma'juj...

...you wanna live green? Drop your car and your racing and get a horse, simple. You wanna save the planet? refuse to burn fossil fuels from mega industries, instead go for the natural option and kindle a fire the way the ancients used to. You wanna stop the filthy rich from increasing the divide between rich and poor? Drop your bank account and buy gold instead. You wanna do this? do that... you wanna do that? do this... etc...

bottom line is - there are plenty of options, but creature comforts will prevail as no one likes hardship.

Yet, we are taught that hardship is a part of life.

Too many people worry about this that and the other - without rationalising their argument in light of Quranic teachings.

Scimi

[new2010]

No bro, that's happened not because urbanization, but because population growth. I know it because I witness it.

When me and my friends were young we were living together with our parents and our siblings. But then after we got married we need to have new homes. This is the cause of the growth of residential areas. Now mostly of my friends, and also my sister, are living in areas which were previously paddy fields and plantation areas in 80's.

Indeed, apartment can reduce the growth of area that used for residential purpose. But how about poor people who can't afford to buy or rent apartment?. So the growth of slum areas is something that unavoidable.

Population growth led to the growth of buildings and roads, and this will cause the ground covered by concrete and asphalt that will prevent the absorption of water. This is the cause of flood that often happen nowadays. .


The earth indeed, large enough to accommodate more humans. However, we cannot just think about available space, but we must also think about the balance between human and nature. Too many population will cause damage of nature balance in support the human life.

Do you know how many forests that have been changed into plantation areas?. Do you know how many species of animal that have been and will extinct because they lost their habitat due to human population growth?.

I do agree to brother "scimitar", we don't have the right to say we're to many. That's probably not the major issue. Allah mentions in the Quran:

And whoever fears Allah, for him Allah brings forth a way out, and gives him provision (rizq) from where he does not even imagine…(Surah At-Talaq: 2/3)

I don't want to write about an islamicly view because I am not qualified for that, however I've a feeling that this might have a dangerous ending.

As far as I concern, the urbanization process has been a result of industrialization, so people from the land came into the cities in the beginning of industrialization to gain more money and feed their family. When this process started in Europe, people haven't been really on a high standard. They lived an tremendous bad conditions. This fact probably lead people to find ways for more innovation to survive in the "new system". Nowadays, the western countries underwent a development that is globally respected, however they gained this high standard by exploiting countries with plentiful resources. Overpopulation is not the issue. It's the greed of countries and probably our financial system that works globally and is based on greed. We need just to look up the definition of capitalism by Adam Smith. You mentioned the plantation areas, as you're from Indonesia, I assume you mean among other things, the palm oil plantation areas. This it indeed a huge problem, but according to my humble opinion has nothing to do with overpopulation. It's the western system that exploits other countries to maintain or more to grow their standard and feed their own people. The problem is global inequality.

I have no deeper information about the situation in Indonesia at the moment, so I want to focus on Africa. Let's take any country, it doesn't matter which one; all of them have similar structure. When western countries would stop to go there (even today, after the time of colonialism - it's still there!) there is no development in the most countries and the most of the infants die before they reach a child age. For some a reason I am sure, people in Africa don't want much as western countries. I am sure, they would be satisfied, when they have a decent life with enough nutrition for themselves and their children in combination with a home that saves them from weather and a health care. At least at that level, that they don't die on illness, for what people in Europe died centuries ago.

Western countries would even not lose much, the way of living is so wasteful, that they would - with Allah permission - be able to feed many many people there when western countries would use their stuff more efficiently. Furthermore, we need to rethink our way of living. Akhi, you mentioned many negativ factors of urbanisation, however this is again not directly a problem of overpopulation. There are a lot of projects in sustainable urban development. This is a way in the right direction, I am sure, in a couple of decades we will be able to decrease costs in building those and this kind of technologies are going to be the standard. InshaAllah.

In conclusion, when we rethink our habits and decrease the bads, there will be more resources available for more people. It's not that we have too less it's just how we use our resources. Of course humanity have to rethink and develop more efficiently and sustainable technologies, otherwise it will be genuinely difficult.

[Futuwwa]

Well, Indonesia is exceptionally densely populated. Don't worry, there's plenty of natural environment elsewhere even when all of Indonesia has been paved. And it won't come to that, population growth will stop after enough development has happened, like it has in almost every first world country.

[sister herb]

Some problems associated with or exacerbated by human overpopulation and over-consumption are:

Inadequate fresh water for drinking as well as sewage treatment and effluent discharge. Some countries, like Saudi Arabia, use energy-expensive desalination to solve the problem of water shortages.

Depletion of natural resources, especially fossil fuels.

Increased levels of air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination and noise pollution. Once a country has industrialized and become wealthy, a combination of government regulation and technological innovation causes pollution to decline substantially, even as the population continues to grow.

Deforestation and loss of ecosystems that valuably contribute to the global atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide balance; about eight million hectares of forest are lost each year.

Changes in atmospheric composition and consequent global warming.

Loss of arable land and increase in desertification. Deforestation and desertification can be reversed by adopting property rights, and this policy is successful even while the human population continues to grow.

Mass species extinctions from reduced habitat in tropical forests due to slash-and-burn techniques that sometimes are practiced by shifting cultivators, especially in countries with rapidly expanding rural populations; present extinction rates may be as high as 140,000 species lost per year. As of February 2011, the IUCN Red List lists a total of 801 animal species having gone extinct during recorded human history.

High infant and child mortality. High rates of infant mortality are associated with poverty. Rich countries with high population densities have low rates of infant mortality.

Intensive factory farming to support large populations. It results in human threats including the evolution and spread of antibiotic resistant bacteria diseases, excessive air and water pollution, and new viruses that infect humans.

Increased chance of the emergence of new epidemics and pandemics. For many environmental and social reasons, including overcrowded living conditions, malnutrition and inadequate, inaccessible, or non-existent health care, the poor are more likely to be exposed to infectious diseases.

Starvation, malnutrition or poor diet with ill health and diet-deficiency diseases (e.g. rickets). However, rich countries with high population densities do not have famine.

Poverty coupled with inflation in some regions and a resulting low level of capital formation. Poverty and inflation are aggravated by bad government and bad economic policies. Many countries with high population densities have eliminated absolute poverty and keep their inflation rates very low.

Low life expectancy in countries with fastest growing populations.

Unhygienic living conditions for many based upon water resource depletion, discharge of raw sewage and solid waste disposal. However, this problem can be reduced with the adoption of sewers. For example, after Karachi, Pakistan installed sewers, its infant mortality rate fell substantially.

Elevated crime rate due to drug cartels and increased theft by people stealing resources to survive.

Conflict over scarce resources and crowding, leading to increased levels of warfare.

Less personal freedom and more restrictive laws. Laws regulate interactions between humans. Law "serves as a primary social mediator of relations between people".

The higher the population density, the more frequent such interactions become, and thus there develops a need for more laws and/or more restrictive laws to regulate these interactions.

Source: wikipedia

[ardianto]

Well, Indonesia is exceptionally densely populated. Don't worry, there's plenty of natural environment elsewhere even when all of Indonesia has been paved. And it won't come to that, population growth will stop after enough development has happened, like it has in almost every first world country.

In Population density Indonesia is only in 90th position. The only problem is more than a half of Indonesian people are living in Java island, although if compared with Bangladesh, the over populated Java island is still less density. In birth rate Indonesia now even below the world average, only 2.4 while the world average is 2.5. Yes, it's related to increasing number of middle-class that see small family as the ideal family.

Indonesia's population growth is now indeed slower than previous, but the problem is, the land cannot be expanded. So, later the increasing of population density will affect the balance of nature.

[greenhill]

overpopulation is a myth

Yup. A few hundred years ago, when the population started growing tremendously the leading thought was that the world was fast approaching a point where there will be not enough food to feed everybody. The idea was that we will be entering a period where it would be 'survival of the fittest'. (I reckon that helped to push the interest in the 'natural selection' process of evolution theories).

However, nobody even considered that there was going to be a breakthrough in technology in the agricultural field. The likes of Jethro Tull who modernized the way in which farming was done and then the Agrarian Revolution took place (1600-1700s) and the food production increased and the worry of not enough food for the world became a non issue.

What has happened is that with the increase in mechanization more and more people are made redundant in the agricultural sector and they have to seek employment elsewhere. Usually it is easier to find employment in the cities hence the migration of people towards cities resulting in the increased urbanization. In order to cater for the increased demand for lodgings, most of the outskirts development is done without proper care (and largely on the cheap) resulting in the problems of improper planning....

Population is meant to increase naturally and cannot decrease unless something is wrong. If not from just a pair (Adam and Eve pbut) we would not have the population on Earth to be this many.....and again after the Great Flood of Noah (pbuh) the Earth was once again repopulated.

[sister herb]

Population is meant to increase naturally and cannot decrease unless something is wrong.

Now something is wrong. The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed. Some people see that pandemias are the natural way to reduce the human population. Before the development of medical science during the history that has been "natural" way to avoid over-population problems.

[Scimitar]

sister herb,.. you've bought into the scare mongering of the elite. amazing.

Scimi

[greenhill]

Now something is wrong. The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed. Some people see that pandemias are the natural way to reduce the human population. Before the development of medical science during the history that has been "natural" way to avoid over-population problems.

I agree! Nature has its limits... Most of the diseases we have today is as a result of man perversing nature in the first place.. or have we forgotten? How greed has raped nature. It is not over population. The lack of concern for hygiene or care for the masses due to profits, or wanting to extend shelf life needs certain ingredients, despite the long term implications to health. The medication by and large may help shorten the suffering, but as Florence Nightingale found, it wasn't the medicine so much that saved lives, it was the cleanliness aspect. Just washing the hands and cleaning the tools reduced infection and ultimately, death! A simple Islamic MUST, cleanliness. Yes, vaccination helped a great deal too...On some people matters, there will always be some people thinking very differently....

[new2010]

The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed.

Sometimes I am wondering whether we really have sufficient thrust in our Rabb? There are problems, but nature has nothing to do with it. Allah is almighty and he's able to feed 10^∞ people! Again: it's not nature it's us!

Tafsir Ibn Kathir Qs At Talaq 2-3
Allah provides, suffices, and makes a Way out of Every Hardship for Those Who have Taqwa

Allah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاًوَيَرْزُقْهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out. And He will provide him from where he never could imagine.) meaning, whoever has Taqwa of Allah in what He has commanded and avoids what He has forbidden, then Allah will make a way out for him from every difficulty and will provide for him from resources he never anticipated or thought about. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "The most comprehensive Ayah in the Qur'an is,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَالإْحْسَانِ﴾

(Verily, Allah enjoins Al-`Adl (justice) and Al-Ihsan (doing good) (16:90). The greatest Ayah in the Qur'an that contains relief is,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.)'' `Ikrimah also commented on the Ayah, "Whoever divorces as Allah commanded him, then Allah will make a way out for him.'' Similar was reported from Ibn `Abbas and Ad-Dahhak.`Abdullah bin Mas`ud and Masruq commented on the Ayah,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.) "It pertains to when one knows that if Allah wills He gives, and if He wills He deprives,

﴿مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(from where he never could imagine.) from resources he did not anticipate'' Qatadah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.) "meaning, from every doubt and the horrors experienced at the time of death,

﴿وَيَرْزُقْهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(And He will provide him from where he never could imagine) from where he never thought of or anticipated.'' Allah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَهُوَ حَسْبُهُ﴾

(And whosoever puts his trust in Allah, then He will suffice him.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that he rode the Prophet's camel while sitting behind the Prophet , and the Messenger of Allah said to him,

«يَا غُلَامُ إِنِّي مُعَلِّمُكَ كَلِمَاتٍ: احْفَظِ اللهَ يَحْفَظْكَ، احْفَظِ اللهَ تَجِدْهُ تُجَاهَكَ، وَإِذَا سَأَلْتَ فَاسْأَلِ اللهَ، وَإِذَا اسْتَعَنْتَ فَاسْتَعِنْ بِاللهِ، وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الْأُمَّةَ لَوِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى أَنْ يَنْفَعُوكَ لَمْ يَنْفَعُوكَ إِلَّا بِشَيْءٍ قَدْ كَتَبَهُ اللهُ لَكَ، وَلَوِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى أَنْ يَضُرُّوكَ لَمْ يَضُرُّوكَ إِلَّا بِشَيْءٍ قَدْ كَتَبَهُ اللهُ عَلَيْكَ، رُفِعَتِ الْأَقْلَامُ وَجَفَّتِ الصُّحُف»

(O boy! I will teach you words ﴿so learn them﴾. Be mindful of Allah and He will protect you, be mindful of Allah and He will be on your side. If you ask, ask Allah, and if you seek help, seek it from Allah. Know that if the Ummah gather their strength to bring you benefit, they will never bring you benefit, except that which Allah has decreed for you. Know that if they gather their strength to harm you, they will never harm you, except with that which Allah has decreed against you. The pens have been raised and the pages are dry.) At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith and said: "Hasan Sahih.'' Allah's statement,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ بَـلِغُ أَمْرِهِ﴾

(Verily, Allah will accomplish his purpose.) meaning, Allah will execute His decisions and judgement that He made for him, in whatever way He wills and chooses,

﴿قَدْ جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدْراً﴾

(Indeed Allah has set a measure for all things.) This is like His saying:

﴿وَكُلُّ شَىْءٍ عِندَهُ بِمِقْدَارٍ﴾

(Everything with Him is in (due) proportion.) (13:8)

[ardianto]

To be honest, I made this thread as response to brother Scimitar's statement in another thread that it's good if married couple have 20 children. No, it's not good. Have too many children will cause difficulty in parenting. I know it because I am a father.

I have ever made a thread which I said that Allah will give sustenance for married couple. Yes, it's true. But it doesn't mean that it's okay if married couple have much children because there is limit on sustenance that given by Allah. Look at people in slum area who have many children. Does have more children makes them get more sustenance?.

If only one or few married couple who believe that it's good to have any children, it's still okay. But if many married couple have this mindset and their children have same mindset too, it will cause population blast which the population grow too fast.

Sister Herb is right, nature has limit in provide the human needs. Indeed, with mind and intelligence human can make the nature increase its limit in providing foods for human through increasing agricultural production and animal husbandry. But if human population grow too fast, then human ability to make nature provide foods will not able to pursuit the human demand for foods.

And the most important is, earth cannot be expanded. Population growth makes human need more and more space for them, and it will make human take over the space that provided for plants, animals, and open ground. It will cause damage toward the nature. In example, now flood is easily happen in anywhere. It's because the open ground which needed for soil to absorb the rain have been occupied by human and soil cannot absorb the water properly.

Population growth also cause human change the forest into plantation area or even into residential area. It makes the trees ability to provide oxygen for human decreased. Indeed, we can plant new trees. But many trees we can plant and how long the time trees need to grow up?.

Population growth is something that unavoidable. But we must control this growth, because if not, then the nature will not able to provide what we need.

[Futuwwa]

Anyone who says there is no such thing as overpopulation can start by accounting for the fact that the Earth is not currently covered by a kilometre-deep solid layer of bacteria. Or try to keep 100 sheep fed on a 1 square metre pasture.

Economical and technological development can increase the capacity of an area to support human life, but such development won't just magically happen simply because it is needed. On the contrary, the resulting poverty and deprivation can easily act as a catalyst for conflict over scarce resources, hindering the needed development.

Also, supportable population depends on standards of living too. First world grain production alone could probably feed about 20 billion people if that grain was actually used as food, rather than as the food of our food, like about 90% of it is currently.

[Scimitar]

one word to kill your argument... Monsanto!

Scimi