Hi Scimi,
You say "False prophets do not give rise world changing faiths." Not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that it is impossible for a false prophet to gain a large following? But how would you know that? Are you saying that it is impossible for a large number of people to be deceived? But such a thing is obviously possible. If Muhammad was a true prophet then all the Christians are deceived as well as all other non-Muslims. That is a large number of people. If Muhammad was a false prophet then all the Muslims are deceived. That is also a large number of people. In either case a large number of people have been deceived. It is therefore possible for a large number of people to be deceived. So I don't see how your argument is valid.
Do you have any other reason for believing that Muhammad was a true prophet?
Allah sent many prophets to the world (of which 25 were mentioned by name in the Quran). There will always be a first - Adam, pbuh and there will be a last, Muhammad pbuh and of course all the other prophets in between, peace be upon them all..
The easiest way to answer this (in my humble opinion) would be to read the islamic story about the prophets, starting from Adam, Idris (Enoch), Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad peace be upon them all (there are more) then you would see the continuity of the messages from the beginning and how it is completed with the final message from the final messenger (prophet).
If we only look at individual cases, as in Moses being on his own, Jesus on his own and Muhammad on his own (peace be upon them all) then it would appear as if each took from each other some bits when actually that is furthest from the truth. It came from the same stock!
You have to remember that Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel because they had deviated from the teachings so much but the Jews did not listen. But his words were powerful enough to attract the layman into the faith... hence it took on its own followers and became a separate 'religion' because the Jews (for whom Jesus was sent) chose not to accept it.
Again, you have to remember also that through the prophecies (like the one given about the coming of Jesus) the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) was also foretold and the Jews settled in the area waiting his arrival. Only, they rejected him (as they did Jesus) when the 'revelations' came.
Then it became 3 religions.
Muhammad (pbuh) is definitely the final messenger. What you need to know is available and easily retrievable, so please do your own research. Don't take my word for it.
Hi Scimi,
You say "False prophets do not give rise world changing faiths." Not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that it is impossible for a false prophet to gain a large following? But how would you know that? Are you saying that it is impossible for a large number of people to be deceived? But such a thing is obviously possible. If Muhammad was a true prophet then all the Christians are deceived as well as all other non-Muslims. That is a large number of people. If Muhammad was a false prophet then all the Muslims are deceived. That is also a large number of people. In either case a large number of people have been deceived. It is therefore possible for a large number of people to be deceived. So I don't see how your argument is valid.
Do you have any other reason for believing that Muhammad was a true prophet?
its not really about deception.
pretty sure you look nothing like a 2000 year old christian.
o_0
..but you are right.. people have always done crazy things..
like voting in trump.
while g.w. bush says god spoke to him o_O
and sadam hussain built gold toilets.
...your perception of the question is wrong.
these are barriers you aught to not have.. yet you do..
and you expect us to have them..
and maybe we wont.
is there any other real reason for believing prophet muhammed pbuh was a prophet?
...yeah i guess he was giving out free passes that day.
...
if you dont believe its ok...
in all likelyhood..
people who split seas and walk on water are one in a brazillian.. "/
if thats what your looking for.
your better of being a scientist.
...and understanding the rest of us are screwed by gravity.
...
so what do you think of the jews and the scripture they hold?
you know i think thats the devision here... that science is science all over the world.. it is a worldwide language..
and yet your omnipotent.. omnipresent.. all creator...
Hi Scimi,
You say "False prophets do not give rise world changing faiths." Not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that it is impossible for a false prophet to gain a large following? But how would you know that? Are you saying that it is impossible for a large number of people to be deceived? But such a thing is obviously possible.
I wonder, do you speak Hebrew? See, in Judaic theology, there is no such thing as "coincidence" because God wills all seeming coincidences into existence - it is HIS will. In Islamic theology it is the same - and also the same in your Christian theology.
This next part - I believe you are alluding to "the great apostacy" but I think you are a unilingual Christian who gets lost in details and cannot see the bigger picture. I'll try and help you out a little, God willing.
The Great Apostacy mentioned in your scriptures, is contextually applied to atheists who were once following the faiths from the Abrahamic traditions. Not Muslims.
in 1 John 22: Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist,
Muslims believe in Jesus (peace and blessings and mercy of Almighty God be upon him) and we believe he is The Messiah who is to return at the end of time.
The great apostacy is applied to your own camp of Christians who left the faith for no faith.
format_quote Originally Posted by Wim
If Muhammad was a true prophet then all the Christians are deceived as well as all other non-Muslims. That is a large number of people. If Muhammad was a false prophet then all the Muslims are deceived. That is also a large number of people. In either case a large number of people have been deceived. It is therefore possible for a large number of people to be deceived. So I don't see how your argument is valid.
Do you have any other reason for believing that Muhammad was a true prophet?
Are you deceived? You found your way to a Muslim forum, by the will of God Almighty - and God works in mysterious ways does he not?
Stick around, God willing, you will find some truths which will amaze you.
Before you start to wonder who is guided and who is misguided, Muslims or Christians. Let's first examine your religions sects - and why they exist.
Your religion's sects exist because of differences in theology - you know - the belief about God, HIS nature, etc. Not one sect of Christianity is political but always theological - this puts the largest religious group in the world, the Christians, into a misnomer - you identify as one people but are actually different to each other in belief.
How many Christians do you know who "interpret" the bible according to their own understanding? How many of them speak Hebrew or Konig Greek? Thought so.
How many of these same Christians claim to have the holy ghost? And why do their holy ghosts argue with each other?
Let us contrast to Islam and the Muslims. Sure, we have sects - but none of our sects are divided due to theological issues like yours are - in fact, the Muslims are united in belief, unlike the Christians - theologically all our Muslim sects are in agreement. Our Muslim sects are political and a-religious, and so as a religion with validated beliefs and practices, we are on far firmer footing on the foundation of faith than Christians ever can be.
So, the question - "The Great Apostacy" - who does it apply to more contextually? The Muslims? Or the Christians?
It is obvious now to you, that the Christians are the ones who have theological holes so large that the idea of a Great Apostacy actually applied to the Christians.
Thanks greenhil, M.I.A. and Scimitar for your contributions to this discussion. I don't think any of you have come close to answering my question except maybe greenhills assertion that the coming of Muhammad was foretold. If that is indeed the case then that might count in favour of Muhammad's prophethood. Can you elaborate on that greenhill? Who foretold the coming of Muhammad or how do we know about this prediction?
I will respond properly when I come home. You seem to have done the typical Christian thing and ignored my point to your issues and waved a dismissive hand in ignorance - i will have to drive this point home so you "get it".
Thanks greenhil, M.I.A. and Scimitar for your contributions to this discussion. I don't think any of you have come close to answering my question except maybe greenhills assertion that the coming of Muhammad was foretold. If that is indeed the case then that might count in favour of Muhammad's prophethood. Can you elaborate on that greenhill? Who foretold the coming of Muhammad or how do we know about this prediction?
I'll take this one down real quick.
Neither your or my belief system allows us to entertain coincidences. God wills.
So mind telling me what the name of Muhammad (pbuh) is doing in The Psalms - Songs of Solomon 5:16?
Hebrew Aramaic and Arabic are sister languages - they share the same consonant roots and have meanings attached to the letters, this tri-lateral rooting system is what makes understanding Hebrew Aramaic, for the Arab linguist, easy peasy.
As for the IM at the end of Muhammad-IM - in the verse the IM at the end denotes the plurality of respect, afforded to either God, a nation, or a venerated personality whom God informs others of. Proving this is a person as the name is extant and fruiting from the loins of the first born of Abraham pbuh, his son Ishmael... as for Ishmael, the "el" is the name of God according to Hebrew exegetes, and is given to only two persons by God on earth, one was the prophet Jacob (peace be upon him) whom God named Isra-el. And the other was the first born of Abraham (pbuh) whom God named Ishma-el.
Leave your bias aside and seek truth, and not differentiation due to your dogmatic belief in Christianity, which as far as I can see, is reflective of evangelical hubris - without knowledge, wisdom or logic.
You should not be believing in coincidences and thus, wonder how the name of Muhammad pbuh got into the Old Testament a full thousand years before Jesus pbuh was born to Mary pbuh. Your wondering should leave you in a state of awe, that God willed the prophet Muhammad to be the final prophet to humanity, and furthermore, the people Muhammad pbuh was sent to as prophet and messenger of God, were instructed by Muhammad pbuh to believe in Jesus pbuh as the Messiah who will return at the end of time - if you seek truth, this will hit home with you and you will in truth, be forced to either ignore everything I just shared because it makes you uncomfortable - or you submit to the will of God, and that is basically what a Muslim is - one who submits to the will of God.
Thanks greenhil, M.I.A. and Scimitar for your contributions to this discussion. I don't think any of you have come close to answering my question except maybe greenhills assertion that the coming of Muhammad was foretold. If that is indeed the case then that might count in favour of Muhammad's prophethood. Can you elaborate on that greenhill? Who foretold the coming of Muhammad or how do we know about this prediction?
to be fair.. i think its a very leading question..
to ask something that was in itself not wholely accepted.. to validate something which you are not open to accepting.
Please can someone explain to me what it is about Muhammad that gives Muslims the confidence to believe that Muhammad was God's prophet?
he is from the lineage of Prophets; Prophet Abraham and Ismael; you will see even in your own religion, Prophets tend to come from related bloodlines. before he recieved his Prophethood, he was known to his people as 'Al-Ameen' [the truthful one], so a person who never said a lie in his life isn't going to suddenly start lying about God. His [pbuh] character has been impecable all his life; the Quran is miraculous; it cannot be faulted .. basically i can go on and on but heres a few for you to ponder!
I read a few comments of you and it seems you want to walk the road based on logic, rationality, reason and evidence if available.
Let's start. To say that Muhammad(pbuh) was a prophet, something needs to be confirmed first. What is this "something"?
Muslims CLAIM the Qur'an to be PERFECT. They also CLAIM that it has come down FROM a Creator who is PERFECT.
Now we come to know this, we must FIRST establish a foundation(rulings) to further do our research.
- Muslims CLAIM Qur'an does not contain any errors
- Muslims CLAIM Qur'an as the ORIGINAL (in Arabic) is the one which does NOT contain errors.
- Muslims CLAIM that this Creator does not make errors.
Now we know these things, we need to further establish our own understanding.
- Human beings by FACT are not perfect
- Human beings because they are not perfect cannot create something that is perfect. For example a book as thick as a religious book like the Qur'an and with all kind of things that have been told about.
- A translation of the Qur'an is made BY human beings, which is BOUND to contain errors.
To proof that Islam is false, one just has to find errors in that book. How? Investigate as much things being said as possible which by science have already being branded as fact and will not change even over 100 years. So if human psychology is talked about, you investigate it. If Astronomy is talked about you investigate it. If Embryology is talked about, you investigate it. So you compare those facts and what has being talked about in the Qur'an. If the Qur'an does not agree on those, scientific FACTS that will not even change over 100 years so to say, you could say..this is a error and thus NOT made by a Creator. Thus prophet Muhammad is NOT a prophet. However, if you have investigated everything that you wanted to investigate to compare it with scientific facts and all agree with what Qur'an says..ONLY conclusion is this is NOT made by human beings. You could also investigate Arabic grammar and spelling..etc. etc. etc.
If you have concluded that it has NOT been made by human beings, because it indeed does not contain any errors in it, one then could ONLY conclude about what has been told about in that book. Which that book refers to a Creator. Which means, by default everything else(religions) that do not agree with are by default false. They might contain similarities, but everything else that differs is by default false and thus those religions that contain different things than the Qur'an has been made up by human beings.
Which now we then can conclude that Muhammad (pbuh) would indeed be a prophet of this Creator.
My argument is very easy as you can judge it yourself. The question is, do you agree with this argument? If not because of some errors in my argument..i am happy to hear you. If you still do not agree with it without any argument this shows your dishonesty.
In the end if you would not accept the argument without having any argument against it, because of dishonesty, we all will die. So just because not agreeing on something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Scimitar, thanks for your explanation of how Muhammad's coming was foretold in the old testament. I am unconvinced and unimpressed. Just because the Hebrew word for lovely is somewhat similar to the name Muhammad, it does not therefore follow that Muhammad's coming was foretold in the old testament. Employing this kind of logic can be useful for when you want to argue that mermaids do exist or that the moon is made of cheese.
OK Simple Person here is my rebuttal.
You say that human beings because they are not perfect cannot create something that is perfect.
You say that the Qur'an (in the original Arabic) is perfect and does not contain any errors.
I disagree with both these statements and I will set out my reasons for disagreeing.
Is it true that human beings, being imperfect, cannot create something that is perfect? This may seem plausible at first but on closer examination I think it is untrue. It is for instance conceivable that a mathematician may write a thesis or a whole book on some section of mathematics, and all the equations and proofs are correct. No fault can be found with it. The mathematician as a human being may have his shortcomings and failings, but these will not necessarily prevent him from producing a perfect work of mathematics. As another example take the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Many of the best musicians in the world would agree that some of Bach's compositions are perfect and that no one would be able to improve on them. Bach was a human being like ourselves and he had his faults. In his younger years he displayed an inclination towards arrogance. His human faults did not stop him producing perfect compositions.
Now I'll get to your claim about the Qur'an being perfect and not containing errors. I know of many imperfections in the Qur'an. In order to prove that the Qur'an is not perfect I only have to put forward one error. One error is enough to make a piece of literature imperfect. According to Surah 18:86 Dhul-Qarnain once traveled a long way in a westerly direction and found the place where the sun sets every night in a spring of black muddy water. Can this be correct? I think you will agree with me that the sun does not set in a spring of black muddy water.
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