Factors in Losing Faith

[sharvy]

Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam.

As-salaam Alaikuum

Ansar, your claim "no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam" just isn't true. At a university where I formerly taught, a colleague and friend of mine was a graduate of Al Azhar in Cairo. He grew up a devout, practicing Muslim, determined to devote his life to Allah, but gradually became disillusioned with all organized religion. Yet he does not hate Islam or any other religion. He recognizes the deep virtues of faith and community, but personally could not continue to believe in the supernatural. He does not proselytize his apostasy or have any wish to undermine the faith of others. When he goes home to Cairo he participates in family religious celebrations (but not in the US), because he loves his family and these family traditions. No one in Cairo, including his family knows he is murtad fitri. My friend has absolutely no reason to lie about this matter, and I know from many public situations in the US that he in fact is a scientific materialist.

But, Ansar, even though I think your claim is not literally correct, I do not see this issue as very important from the point of view of faith. So what if a few people knowledgeably reject Islam without malice or posing a threat because they find other communities and ways of life they prefer? If they will burn in hell, that is between them and Allah. There will always be sinners, right?

Respectfully,

Sharvy

[i_m_tipu]

As-salaam Alaikuum

Ansar, your claim "no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam" just isn't true. At a university where I formerly taught, a colleague and friend of mine was a graduate of Al Azhar in Cairo.........

not sure what u understand by knowledgeable Muslim

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,
Thanks for your post. Your example isn't very different from HeiGou's. You're speaking about someone who just grew up as a Muslim, I'm talking about a knowledgeable Muslim who has studied the sciences of Qur'an (Ulûm Al-Qur'ân), the principles of Islamic jurisprudence (Usûl Al-Fiqh) and other Islamic sciences. Can you bring me an example of a Muslim who was well educated about his/her religion? And from what you say of your friend, he did not leave Islam because of any flaw he saw in the religion but because he personally found he could no longer believe in the supernatural.

As for the punishment, I have explained the conditions and the circumstances in which the punishment would be applied. The Islamic government has no interest in punishing someone like your friend who keeps his views to himself and does not incite any civil unrest or rebellion.

Regards

[sharvy]

Hi Sharvy,
Thanks for your post. Your example isn't very different from HeiGou's. You're speaking about someone who just grew up as a Muslim, I'm talking about a knowledgeable Muslim who has studied the sciences of Qur'an (Ulûm Al-Qur'ân), the principles of Islamic jurisprudence (Usûl Al-Fiqh) and other Islamic sciences. Can you bring me an example of a Muslim who was well educated about his/her religion? And from what you say of your friend, he did not leave Islam because of any flaw he saw in the religion but because he personally found he could no longer believe in the supernatural.

Regards

But Ansar, he has a theology degree from Al-Azhar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Azhar

Al-Azhar University (al-Azhar al-Shareef, "the Noble Azhar"), is a premier Egyptian institution of higher learning, world-renowned for its position as a center of Islamic scholarship and education. It is connected to Al-Azhar mosque in Old Cairo, named to honor Fatima Az-Zahraa the daughter of the prophet Muhammad, from whom the Fatimid Dynasty claimed descent. The mosque was built in two years from 969 CE, the year in which its foundation was laid. The school of theology (madrassa) connected with it was founded in 988 CE as an Ismaili Shia school, but it later became a Sunni school, an orientation it retains to this day. It is one of the oldest operating universities in the world.

Al-Azhar is considered by most Sunni Muslims to be the most prestigious school of Islamic learning, and its scholars are seen as some of the most reputable scholars in the Muslim world. Among its stated objectives is the propagation of Islamic culture and the Arabic language (the language of the Qur'an.) To that end, it maintains a committee of ulemas (Islamic scholars) to judge on individual Islamic questions, a printing establishment for printing the Qur'an, and trains preachers in spreading da'wa.

Respectfully,

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,
I know about Al-Azhar university, but can you see the fallacy in posting the qualifications of the university instead of the qualifications of the person who graduated from the university? There are many people who go to a university to study, but that doesn't make the as prestigious as the university itself. My point stands, especially concerning his reasons for leaving religion in general.

Regards

[sharvy]

Hi Sharvy,
I know about Al-Azhar university, but can you see the fallacy in posting the qualifications of the university instead of the qualifications of the person who graduated from the university? There are many people who go to a university to study, but that doesn't make the as prestigious as the university itself. My point stands, especially concerning his reasons for leaving religion in general.

Regards

Ansar, my colleague was an Islamic scholar; he originally came to the US to teach Islamic studies (and taught for several years), and later became a philosophy professor.

Respectfully,

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,

Ansar, my colleague was an Islamic scholar; he originally came to the US to teach Islamic studies (and taught for several years), and later became a philosophy professor.

He's gone from being a 'devout Muslim', graduate of Al-Azhar, to an 'Islamic scholar'. I'm not sure what your understanding of Islamic scholarship is, but now I'd really like to hear more about your friends qualifications, what braches of Shari'a he has studied and under which Ulama, what ijazahs he posses (if any), when he left Islam, and where I can find more information on him since his case is unprecedented in history.

Regards

[sharvy]

Hi Sharvy,

He's gone from being a 'devout Muslim', graduate of Al-Azhar, to an 'Islamic scholar'. I'm not sure what your understanding of Islamic scholarship is, but now I'd really like to hear more about your friends qualifications, what braches of Shari'a he has studied and under which Ulama, what ijazahs he posses (if any), when he left Islam, and where I can find more information on him since his case is unprecedented in history.

Regards

As-salaam Alaikuum

Ansar, I really don't know which Ulama or what ijazahs. I haven't spoken to him for several years now, but I will be happy to contact him and ask - if it will truly make a difference to you. As for giving out his name and professional information, do you really think I should, given that he doesn't want to make an issue of his apostasy and doesn't want to cause problems with his family? Again, if you really think it will make a genuine contribution to this discussion, I will ask - maybe his situation has changed and he wants to publicly discuss the matter.

But I guess one thing has become clear. When you speak of a "knowlegeable" Muslim, you mean someone that in effect has something like a PhD in Islamic studies - you don't mean an intelligent, devout mature Muslim that has opened up his heart and spent years thinking about and studying the Qur'an, as well as listening to the words of Islamic sages. In other words, only a tiny percentage of Muslims are "knowlegeable" in your sense of the term.

Respectfully,

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Ansar, I really don't know which Ulama or what ijazahs. I haven't spoken to him for several years now

Although you feel comfortable endorsing him as an 'Islamic scholar'.

As for giving out his name and professional information, do you really think I should, given that he doesn't want to make an issue of his apostasy and doesn't want to cause problems with his family?

If he is really an Islamic scholar then he should be known and recognized at some level. There are many people on the internet who claim all sorts of fabulous claims about themselves yet no one has ever heard of such people and they have no way of verifying these claims. If you want to use your friend as evidence that knowledgeable Muslims have abandoned Islam, then you should be prepared to disclose all relevant information. If either you or he does not feel comfortable in doing such, then he should not be advanced as evidence that knowledgeable Muslims leave Islam.

When you speak of a "knowlegeable" Muslim, you mean someone that in effect has something like a PhD in Islamic studies

Not necessarily a PhD, because these days people can get Phd's in all sorts of fields that don't really mean anything. What I mean is that the individual has studied Islam in a stable environment under other scholars to the extent that they are reasonably familiar with all branches of Shari'ah. I could ask you for any Islamic scholar who has left Islam, and there are millions of Islamic scholars in the world today, but I'm making it even easier. I am asking for any knowledgeable Muslim who has left Islam in the entire history of Islam. We have had numerous priests and rabbis, very knowledgeable about their religion leaving the religion, but we don't have the same when it comes to Islam.

you don't mean an intelligent, devout mature Muslim that has opened up his heart and spent years thinking about and studying the Qur'an, as well as listening to the words of Islamic sages.

According to you, your friend has rejected religion in general; he does not see any particular flaw in Islam. And I'm talking about someone who has, at one point in their life, firmly believed in the religion and then left. Your friend seems to be someone who has been wavering in doubt before giving up the idea of organized religion.

In other words, only a tiny percentage of Muslims are "knowlegeable" in your sense of the term.

I am referring to millions and millions of Muslims around the world, when I say 'knowledgeable'.

Regards

[sharvy]

Although you feel comfortable endorsing him as an 'Islamic scholar'. ... I'm talking about someone who has, at one point in their life, firmly believed in the religion and then left. Your friend seems to be someone who has been wavering in doubt before giving up the idea of organized religion.

Of course, I feel comfortable endorsing him as an Islamic scholar. I personally know the man: he graduated with a religious studies degree from Egypt's top theological school, and I know for a fact on the basis of that degree he went on to teach Islamic studies at a reputable American university. He told me he had no doubts and was a firm, devout believer (i.e., no wavering doubts) upon his arrival in the US, but abandoned his belief living and studying in the US. Moreover, I know he is a kind, generous, intelligent sincere person. Why shouldn't I be comfortable characterizing him as an "Islamic scholar"?

If he is really an Islamic scholar then he should be known and recognized at some level. There are many people on the internet who claim all sorts of fabulous claims about themselves yet no one has ever heard of such people and they have no way of verifying these claims. If you want to use your friend as evidence that knowledgeable Muslims have abandoned Islam, then you should be prepared to disclose all relevant information. If either you or he does not feel comfortable in doing such, then he should not be advanced as evidence that knowledgeable Muslims leave Islam.

Ansar, I am saddened by the accusatory tone of this dialogue. I, myself have been a religious seeker for much of my life. I've spent time in Zen and Christian monasteries, as well as Hindu ashrams. Unfortunately I do not have any similar experience with Islamic sanctuaries. Reading your claim about knowledgeable Muslims never abandoning the faith made me reflect on my experience with these other religions and holy people. I realized it is true that many sincere, devout, learned people of faith have converted to other religions. On Mt Athos, I met a former Jewish rabbi living as Greek Othodox monk - a hermit, living a quiet life of solitude and meditation. I don't think any knowledgeable person from these other religions would doubt your claim that knowlegeable people of deep faith have either converted to other religions or later on lost their faith. But that realization brought me to the real point of the original post on this matter: the acknowledged existence of such apostates has never weakened the strength of the religion in general, or challenged the faith of true believers. In general their view is that such faith is a deeply personal matter between the individual and God. And I daresay Ansar, no amount of "proof" concerning this apostate is going to challenge your own deep faith in Allah - and nor should it! That was the real point I am trying to make - though the existence of this apostate is a fact.

If I do produce a copy of his degree and post the information, what then: character assasination, public hatred, embarassment for his family, or even worse? **Can you assure me that even if everything I claim is absolutely true, other Muslims will not unfairly harass him (or worse)?** (Perhaps that is the real reason there are so few "knowlegeable Muslims" that come forward with their apostasy.) Note that in this day and age such apostasy from other religions rarely produce such dire consequences. If you checked and verified the information, the degrees and names of his teachers and found them to be accurate - what then? What would it really prove?

As-salaam Alaikuum

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,

Of course, I feel comfortable endorsing him as an Islamic scholar. I personally know the man: he graduated with a religious studies degree from Egypt's top theological school, and I know for a fact on the basis of that degree he went on to teach Islamic studies at a reputable American university.

But since you are not familiar with Islamic scholarship yourself, how would you know what qualifies someone as an Islamic scholar and what doesn't? Because of his degree? On its own, it doesn't say very much. Because he teaches Islamic studies? There are numerous non-muslims in many western univerisities who teach Islamic studies having never been a Muslim.

He told me he had no doubts and was a firm, devout believer (i.e., no wavering doubts) upon his arrival in the US, but abandoned his belief living and studying in the US.

Now this is more interesting. So he changed his way of life after moving to another society? You mentioned that he gradually became disillusioned with all organized religion. This 'gradual' change only began after he moved to the US? Before that his faith was perfect and he was perfectly satisfied with 'organized religion'?

Ansar, I am saddened by the accusatory tone of this dialogue.

I'm not sure what accusations you feel were implied in my post, but at any rate, I apologise if my post offended you.

But that realization brought me to the real point of the original post on this matter: the acknowledged existence of such apostates has never weakened the strength of the religion in general, or challenged the faith of true believers. In general their view is that such faith is a deeply personal matter between the individual and God. And I daresay Ansar, no amount of "proof" concerning this apostate is going to challenge your own deep faith in Allah - and nor should it! That was the real point I am trying to make - though the existence of this apostate is a fact.

It is true that one's personal commitment to God is independant of another person's lack of commitment in their religion. But my original point remains the same. There simply have never been educated and devout Muslims who have later rejected the religion, though they have had the opportunity and often pressure to do so, especially in Non-Muslim countries. As Dr. Laurence Brown MD writes

The question pops into the average Western mind, “Why do some scholars of Christianity and Judaism embrace orthodox (Sunni) Islam?” There is no pressure upon them to do so, and a world of fleshy reasons not to -- things like losing their congregation, position, status, friends, family, job, retirement pension, etc. And why don’t Islamic scholars turn to something else? Other religions are much more permissive of worldly desires, and there is no enforcement of a law against apostatizing from Islam in Western lands.

So why have many Jewish and Christian scholars embraced Islam, while educated Muslims remain firm in their faith? Muslims suggest that the answer returns once again to the definition of Islam. The person who submits to God and not to a particular ecclesiastical belief will recognize a divine sense to revelation. The Muslim presents a continuum between Judaism, Christianity and Islam which, once recognized, sweeps the
sincere seeker down the smooth flow of revelation. The claim is that once a person sees past Western prejudices and propaganda, doors of understanding open. (Brown, The First and Final Commandment, p.33)

Dr. Brown was an atheist who converted to Christianity and finally to Islam.

If I do produce a copy of his degree and post the information, what then: character assasination, public hatred, embarassment for his family, or even worse?

You don't need to produce a copy of his degree for me or reveal his identity. I'm just trying to understand his story, which I'm hoping you can clarify. When did he leave Islam, after having learnt how much about Islam, etc. There are some Muslims who move to the west and give up practicing their religion and lose their faith. But none of them were educated devout Muslims who rejected Islam because they actually believed the religion was inadeuate or flawed. It is only the social or political environment which has ever caused uneducated non-practicing Muslims to drift from their religion.

Even in the case of your friend, you mentioned that he did not reject Islam or see any flaw in it, but simply grew disillusioned with all organized religion gradually.

(Perhaps that is the real reason there are so few "knowlegeable Muslims" that come forward with their apostasy.)

First, as Dr. Brown mentioned, there is no law against apostasy in the western countries. Second, the Muslim community doesn't care about someone who is not harming them or propagating a negative image of Islam. Christian priests who convert to Islam only praise Islam in their speeches but they usually don't go around throwing mud at Christianity. If an educated and devout Muslim became a Christian or Atheist, especially in a western country, and didn't bother himself with attacking Islam, he would not be bothered by the Muslim community. But if he publicly began attacking Islam and propagating a negative image of Islam in the media, that is when he might expect a negative reaction. So this really isn't an excuse because a knowledgeable Muslim could easily have the opportunity to leave Islam without any negative consequences, yet such an occurance has never happened.

Note that in this day and age such apostasy from other religions rarely produce such dire consequences.

I disagree. I have read the stories of numerous christian converts to Islam who speak of being thrown out by their families, continually harassed by their former community, slandered and once part of the Muslim community they become an outcast in society - getting strange looks and nasty remarks for their hijab or kufi. You can read a few convert stories here. These people continue to convert to Islam inspite of the difficulties that they face.

Regards

[sharvy]

Hi Sharvy,

But since you are not familiar with Islamic scholarship yourself, how would you know what qualifies someone as an Islamic scholar and what doesn't? Because of his degree? On its own, it doesn't say very much. Because he teaches Islamic studies? There are numerous non-muslims in many western univerisities who teach Islamic studies having never been a Muslim.

Regards

Ansar, I finally managed to contact my old friend. It was great talking to him again and I can thank this forum for prompting me to reestablish contact. Unfortunately it was only a short conversation for now, as we were both pressed for time. In general, he has no interest in either attacking Islam or having a personal discussion on the matter, and he certainly has no wish to go public in any identifiable way. He doesn't see how he can even engage in such a discussion in a forum like this without thereby publicizing his case and likely be interpreted as attacking Islam. That said, he does permit me to pass on the information that he does hold several ijazahs. The only one I understood was Hadith - he promised to email me the details - but wants me to keep the discussion very general. I am going on a two-week holiday with my family, but will continue the discussion when I return.

Peace,

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,
Thanks for your post.

That said, he does permit me to pass on the information that he does hold several ijazahs. The only one I understood was Hadith - he promised to email me the details - but wants me to keep the discussion very general. I am going on a two-week holiday with my family, but will continue the discussion when I return.

No problem. I look forward to your response to my arguments.

Regards

[sharvy]

Dear Ansar,

I've finally managed the time to get back to you. At Al-Azhar, my former colleague has ijazah in hadith from Muhammad At-Thayib An-Naggar, in usul al-fiqh from Badawi Abdul Latif 'Awadh.

Respectfully,

Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Sharvy,
Thanks for your response.

I stand by what I said in my previous response to you:
http://www.islamicboard.com/265787-post60.html

Regards

[sharvy]

Hi Sharvy,
Thanks for your response.

I stand by what I said in my previous response to you:
http://www.islamicboard.com/265787-post60.html

Regards

Dear Ansar,

Unfortunately I cannot comply with your request to privately contact my colleague: he made it very clear that he wants no personal part in this issue, because it is sensitive and he certainly does not wish to release any private contact info. Even with the best of intentions on your part, he worries that the information could find its way into less descrete hands.

I will remind you of your assurance:

You don't need to produce a copy of his degree for me or reveal his identity. I'm just trying to understand his story, which I'm hoping you can clarify. When did he leave Islam, after having learnt how much about Islam, etc. There are some Muslims who move to the west and give up practicing their religion and lose their faith. But none of them were educated devout Muslims who rejected Islam because they actually believed the religion was inadeuate or flawed. It is only the social or political environment which has ever caused uneducated non-practicing Muslims to drift from their religion.

As per your request, on those grounds, I contacted my colleague and responded in kind. Naturally you have every right to doubt the veracity of my and my colleague's claims. Frankly, I expect you to do so. Nevertheless, I stand by the truth of what I've written.

But you never answered the key question which i have asked at least twice: what difference does it ultimately make if you are wrong and his claim is true? Would the existence of such an educated, knowledgeable apostate fundamentally contradict the truth of the Koran? If true, would and should the claim be taken as a serious challenge to the faith of any devout Muslim? I don't think so - do you?

Regards,
Sharvy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Nevertheless, I stand by the truth of what I've written.

And what you said was that he gradually became disillusioned with organized religion, not that he found a flaw in Islam. If he has found a flaw in Islam please ask him to mention it and we can discuss it. I stand by my assertion that there has never been a properly educated devout Muslim who believed in the religion and then left it, because they felt there was a flaw in it. There are orientalists who never were Muslim who have different religious degrees, it doesn't prove anything.

But you never answered the key question which i have asked at least twice: what difference does it ultimately make if you are wrong and his claim is true?

But you have not even clarified what his 'claim' is! I'm interested to know when and why he left the religion, so far I haven't been getting a response. Why is that?

Would the existence of such an educated, knowledgeable apostate fundamentally contradict the truth of the Koran?

One of the signs of true eeman (faith) is that when it enters the heart it does not leave it. In the entire history of Islam, there has never been a single person who has had true faith and been well-educated about the religion but then left it. You haven't provided any information to the contrary. I'm not asking for personal details from your friend, I'm just asking for the basic details that are relevant to your claim. And there are numerous ways to discuss the issues while remaining anonymous. He can use an alternate e-mail address, for example.

Peace

[sharvy]

And what you said was that he gradually became disillusioned with organized religion, not that he found a flaw in Islam. If he has found a flaw in Islam please ask him to mention it and we can discuss it. I stand by my assertion that there has never been a properly educated devout Muslim who believed in the religion and then left it, because they felt there was a flaw in it. There are orientalists who never were Muslim who have different religious degrees, it doesn't prove anything.

But you have not even clarified what his 'claim' is! I'm interested to know when and why he left the religion, so far I haven't been getting a response. Why is that?

One of the signs of true eeman (faith) is that when it enters the heart it does not leave it. In the entire history of Islam, there has never been a single person who has had true faith and been well-educated about the religion but then left it. You haven't provided any information to the contrary. I'm not asking for personal details from your friend, I'm just asking for the basic details that are relevant to your claim. And there are numerous ways to discuss the issues while remaining anonymous. He can use an alternate e-mail address, for example.

Peace

Dear Ansar,

As I told you in the very first post:

[He] gradually became disillusioned with all organized religion ... [and] personally could not continue to believe in the supernatural. He does not proselytize his apostasy...

And in a subsequent post I mentioned:

He told me he had no doubts and was a firm, devout believer (i.e., no wavering doubts) upon his arrival in the US, but abandoned his belief living and studying in the US.

Ansar, he became and atheist. He regards himself as an apostate. He does not believe that Mohammed (pbuh) really is the prophet of Allah. If that isn't "finding a flaw" in Islam, then what is? (He also believes, by the way, that, in general, time spent studying natural philosophy and science is time better spent than studying the Koran.)

Also note that you have now modified your orignal claim about Islam from:

"no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam" to "there has never been a single person who has had *true faith* and been *well-educated* about the religion but then left it." And now you qualify that not only does the proposed apostate has to have been well-educated, knowedgeable, and of true faith, but also he has to "find flaw" in Islam. Where does that requirement fit in? My friend is certainly "well-educated" and "knowlegeable" about Islam. And, though he was born and raised in the faith, has certainly "left" Islam. Are there now additional "true faith" and "find flaw" requirements? As I repeatedly mentioned, he was a devout Muslim. Why else would someone spend years studying and obtaining izjazahs?

Peace,

Reed

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Ansar, he became and atheist. He regards himself as an apostate. He does not believe that Mohammed (pbuh) really is the prophet of Allah. If that isn't "finding a flaw" in Islam, then what is?

A flaw is a mistake, an error. According to you he didn't find that, he just became disillusioned with religion and personally could not continue to believe in the supernatural. I'm really interested to know more about his case but you're not providing any information other than essentially saying "I know someone who contradicts your claim". I maintain the same claim all along - everyone who has left Islam has done so due to sociopolitical factors or because they had an improper understanding of the religion. Your friend fits perfectly into the first category since you mentioned that he abandoned his religion after coming to the US - there are many weak Muslims who lose their religion once they become immersed in western society. Your friend didn't become any more intelligent after arriving in the US then he was before. As for spending years obtaining ijazahs, orientalists spend years studying Islam, but they don't believe in it. The more I think about it, the more absurd the claim is - no practicing sincere Muslim suddenly wakes up and says, "I can't believe in the supernatural" after they move to another society. That is indicative that they have had problems and struggles with their faith from the beginning. Unless he can bring some stunning proof that caused him to say, "This is it. This shows Islam can't be the truth." it just doesn't happen. If he has found something like that, then by all means please bring it forward and I'll be happy to discuss it. You really have not provided me with any information and that is why I was hoping to contact your friend himself, and there are a number of ways of doing that while maintaining anonymity.

Peace.

[sharvy]

A flaw is a mistake, an error. According to you he didn't find that, he just became disillusioned with religion and personally could not continue to believe in the supernatural.

Dear Ansar,

It is my understanding that in the Koran, the Prophet (pbuh) claims that souls continue to exist after physical death and may be either punished or rewarded in the afterlife for their past deeds and actions. If any man knowingly reads these claims of the Prophet (pbuh) and declares them false, claiming there is no human soul that persists after physical death of the body, claiming that no reward or punishment will be given to person after physical death - is that not the same as finding a mistake or error in the Koran?

Respectfully,
Sharvy