I would like to start off by using a quote from the thread the profound teachings of Mohammad "The Prophet said: 'The cure for ignorance is to question.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)"
If you look at any of the attributes of god according to Islamic teaching(or any other religious teaching) you will come to the conclusion that there is no god if you are so sure of your faith then tell me an attribute of your god and i will show you what i mean if you don't then i have won the debate.
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for. Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful. That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
so youre saying that humans have the capacity to be more merciful than god?
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
Example. It is in the woman's nature to be merciful to her children, especially when they are just babies. And thats something that you see with most women. Given that its so common, i would suggest that it is in womens nature to be merciful to their young children, rather than a choice that they must make.
Example. It is in the woman's nature to be merciful to her children, especially when they are just babies. And thats something that you see with most women. Given that its so common, i would suggest that it is in womens nature to be merciful to their young children, rather than a choice that they must make.
We all know that not every woman is merciful to their children so you cannot say that women are merciful. It is in a woman's genes to be merciful to her children for a reason which is explained by evolution but it is not a fixed attribute. But you are getting of the topic we are not talking about the nature of women. So what you are saying also is proof that God is not merciful and that god would have to have the same nature as a woman.
An attribute of god is something that is meant to be fixed and is the essence of its nature and this is the reason that there cannot be a god.
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
It would be sensible to start off any logical or even illogical argument (like this one) by looking into the concept (understanding) of God.
It is firstly irrational to say that using an attribute of God such as Merciful to be against the existence of God. The problem here is that you are taking it against yourself (intellectually) that you do not have the capacity to keep the idea of God out of your head, nor can you deny it so easily. It is like an allergic reaction, when the body becomes over-protective. You need to ask more and try to argue less, until you understand enough to actually argue for/against it.
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist
So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
If thats your level of debate go and find some children to debate with.
And what a very great scholar you must be to make such a remark. I can't see these discussions being solved by themselves. If denial of God All-Mighty has taken away your ability to communicate with others in a decent manner; it is best for you to say nothing. For those who deny God are deaf, dumb and blind. They have no sense.
This is also impossible to be true or else god would have created itself.
So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.[/QUOTE]
By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist . I am not talking about human existence
And what a very great scholar you must be to make such a remark. I can't see these discussions being solved by themselves. If denial of God All-Mighty has taken away your ability to communicate with others in a decent manner; it is best for you to say nothing. For those who deny God are deaf, dumb and blind. They have no sense.
If all you can do is insult reason and truth. go and play with the other children
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for.
This has nothing to do with it. you claimed you were going to question the posibility of a notion of God, rather then question his actual existance. Wheter he exists or not is a totally difrent subject. And for argument's sake, even if he doesn't exist that still wouldn't necesairly make the notion of God flawed or contradicting.
Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful.
First of all he is the most merciful, not the ever mercifull. There's a difrence inbetween those. One implies that he is by comparison the most mercifull, whereas teh other implies that he is mercifull in every single occasion. The last one isn't correct, some people will be thrown in Hell.
That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
God is omnipotent. He has the capacity to be un-mercifull, but he chooses not to be. Therefor he is -by his own choice- the most mercifull. There's nothing contradicting by that. God Is also the all-knowing. That means he anticipates everything and will therefor not suddenly "change his mind" as there will be no new information forcing him to change opinions. In fact he isn't even bound to the dimension of time so he can witness present, past and future simultaniously. So that means he is consequent. That means that when he makes a choice, he sticks with it. So even if he has the posibility to be less mercifull then others, he waves that capacity and decides not to be as such.
For other charesteristics of Allah (s.w.t.) I shall refer you to the following link. It are allah's 99 names by which he is refered to in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. It is teh only thing we know about what Allah is like. http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
Well first of al Allah is the most mercifull, not the ever-mercifull his merci will not save every single soul from hell as he will throw some people in Hell
But even then, on what base do you claim a deity can not have such capacitys? If you were to say a human being cannot have them I would agree. But God is not a human being. you're saying God cannot have certain capacitys by comparing it to human capacitys. Newsflash: humans are far from being deities!
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for. Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful. That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for.
I don't know what comes to your mind when you think 'Faith', but the arabic word is 'Aqeedah', which comes from 'I'3tiqaad' which means belief, and it's different to 'I think', (conjecture/thoughts/speculation is 'dhann').
Believing doesn't impose the conditiont hat there has to be no evidence... when you find footprints of a well known thief (yeh weird xample), you believe that that the thief was around.. based on the evidence you see.
So our belief in Allah/God isn't baseless, Allah talks to us in the Quran and commands us to contemplate his creation and come to the conclusion ourselves that he must exist.
Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful.
I recommend you read the books of creed "aqeedah" before you tangle yourself in these discussions, in the chapter of 'asma wasifat' (names and attributes of God).. there's a very well established principle "The Similarity is only in names, but the application of these names is beyond our perception". So when we say Allah is merciful, he is merciful, in a manner that we can not comprehend, beyond our senses.
And Allah is a being.. but a being different to what we percieve because he is beyond our limits... Jesus refers to Allah as 'yourself', in teh last verses of surat al-maida (when Allah asks Jesus 'Did you really tell your people to worship yourself as a partner to me?' Jesus replies "You know what is in myself, but i don't knwo what is in yourself, you know that i didn't say that to my people").
That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
Allah is not evil, he is just, and his punishments can be severe (veeeeery severe), but he never afflicts anyone with any punishment without them being warned about their actions and teh consequence of it...
Read into the naems and attribute sof Allah and then come back to us... a good start might be books of aqeedah (creed) written by Ibn Taymiyah.. (im pretty sure there's translations somewhere out there)
This Sounds like philosophy to me...
sorry i didnt hav tiem to read all the other replies, im sure they where pretty good.. ill read it later, yeh cheese's piont also makes sense... just keep in midn that the attributes are only similar in their name, their application, or the way they are carried out is just beyond our scope, the mind just boggles.
This is also impossible to be true or else god would have created itself.
So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.
By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist . I am not talking about human existence[/QUOTE]
You are talking about either a static existence or an existence of chaos. When you look at what Allah has created, you see only a fraction of what is there; you only see what, don't see why. You see how it came about, but only a little. You see a big bang, but you do not see what triggered it. You see a balance, but do not understand what has held it. You (may) know that 90% of the known universe is dark matter, still not understood by scientists, yet even without scienctist knowing such a small part of the universe; you claim to provide a definate answer to the existence of God. If you can do what you claim, then please do take over all the worlds science industries at least and solve their problems first.
If all you can do is insult reason and truth. go and play with the other children
I did not see any point of wasting time in answering your stupidity, but this is just posting junk. I doubt very much that any Muslim would sit around reading what you have to say about Muslims scholars. If you are so desperate to play, do it yourself. If you need to see a doctor, you can do so; if you need help in finding a doctor; I'm sure people around this forum can help you.
I requestthe moderators or administrators to do something about this.
^^ Bro Ahmed, i agree, but you know what... if we close the thread he'll claim it a victory.. it's not hard to see through the brain-junk... so we'll putup till its sorted inshalah ta'3ala..
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