When does the fetus become male/female?

[doodlebug]

assalam alaykum

[75:37] Was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female discharge of semen) poured forth?
[75:38] Then he became an 'Alaqa (a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion.
[75:39] And made him in two sexes, male and female.


Are there any scientific discoveries that show that the sex is affirmed after the fetus is made? I thought that once the sperm contacted with the egg, that the DNA in the male sperm was the determining factor, and therefore at that point the male/female distinguishment can be made.

[Woodrow]

assalam alaykum

[75:37] Was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female discharge of semen) poured forth?
[75:38] Then he became an 'Alaqa (a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion.
[75:39] And made him in two sexes, male and female.


Are there any scientific discoveries that show that the sex is affirmed after the fetus is made? I thought that once the sperm contacted with the egg, that the DNA in the male sperm was the determining factor, and therefore at that point the male/female distinguishment can be made.

You are correct in that in reference to genetic determination. However morphologicaly both are identical for something like 3 months and then differentiation takes place. In otherwords at the moment of conception sex is determined. However there are no morphological differences. although the sex is determined at conception it is not formed until later.

[doodlebug]

You are correct in that in reference to genetic determination. However morphologicaly both are identical for something like 3 months and then differentiation takes place. In otherwords at the moment of conception sex is determined. However there are no morphological differences. although the sex is determined at conception it is not formed until later.

assalam alaykum brother

that is soooo way wicked cool that it says that in the Qur'an like over a thousand years ago when no one could possibly know this!

[Malaikah]

[75:37] Was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female discharge of semen) poured forth?
[75:38] Then he became an 'Alaqa (a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion.
[75:39] And made him in two sexes, male and female.

umm the verse doesnt say THEN, it says and, maybe that implies that its a comment that is seperate to the previous verse? as in its not included in the chronological order?

im not sure but, i think you need to ask someone who understands the arabic.....

[glo]

[75:37] Was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female discharge of semen) poured forth?
[75:38] Then he became an 'Alaqa (a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion.
[75:39] And made him in two sexes, male and female.

I don't understand how exactly this is describing the development of the fetus?

And why would people 1400 years ago not have a very rough awareness of the fetal developments during pregnancy? Surely women had miscarriages in those days at varying stages of their pregnancies?

For me, as a non-Muslim, those verses sound fairly inconclusive ...

Peace

[Fishman]

I don't understand how exactly this is describing the development of the fetus?

And why would people 1400 years ago not have a very rough awareness of the fetal developments during pregnancy? Surely women had miscarriages in those days at varying stages of their pregnancies?

For me, as a non-Muslim, those verses sound fairly inconclusive ...

Peace

There are more verses about this, not just these three. And the word used for clot, so I've heard, can also mean leech. The early embryo has a very strong resemblance to a leech.
Also, these things at this stage are microscopic. The 'fetus' would get lost in the blood and gunk in the event of a miscarriage.

[glo]

There are more verses about this, not just these three. And the word used for clot, so I've heard, can also mean leech. The early embryo has a very strong resemblance to a leech.
Also, these things at this stage are microscopic. The 'fetus' would get lost in the blood and gunk in the event of a miscarriage.

It would look like a 'clot', you mean?
That was the point I was trying to make.

Is the Qu'ran describing things that could have been observed by people at the time? Are we reading too much into these verses? Are we trying to 'make them fit modern medical knowledge'? (I am just wondering ...)

It would be interesting to read the other verses, if you can get them.
And perhaps I'll dig my old medical biology books out ...

Peace, Fishman ...

[جوري]

No! We are not reading too much into these verses ... there are verses to describe even how the bilaminar germ disk differentiates itself further into a trilaminar embryo. And was discovered by a Christian surgeon who later converted to Islam. I have this all described in a book entitled the miracles of the Quran and will have to find the specific verse as I don't know which sura it is from currently. There is no such a thing as too many coincidences of correct observation. further ....an embryo differentiating to include a mesodermal layer is a fairly MICROSCOPICAL phenomenon. Even if people "observed" miscarriages. How are they to differentiate between a regular heavy menses from an aborted fetus?

[glo]

Hi PurestAmbrosia

My point is that I fail to see how this:

[75:37] Was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female discharge of semen) poured forth?
[75:38] Then he became an 'Alaqa (a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion.
[75:39] And made him in two sexes, male and female.

equates to that:

there are verses to describe even how the bilaminar germ disk differentiates itself further into a trilaminar embryo.

It's not that I cannot see how it can be interpreted (with the benefit of modern medical knowledge) to be a description of the forming of the fetus ... but it still doesn't sound conclusive to me ...

I guess what I am saying is that there has to be a certain amount of faith and 'wanting to believe' to make the verses fit medical evidence ...
To me as a non-Muslims it just reads like a vague statement.
(I don't mean to offend anybody by saying this!)

peace

[Malaikah]

^I think she might have been refering to different verses which have not been quoted in this thread

[Ummu Sufyaan]

It would look like a 'clot', you mean?
That was the point I was trying to make.

Is the Qu'ran describing things that could have been observed by people at the time? Are we reading too much into these verses? Are we trying to 'make them fit modern medical knowledge'? (I am just wondering ...)

It would be interesting to read the other verses, if you can get them.
And perhaps I'll dig my old medical biology books out ...

Peace, Fishman ...

or maybe modern medical knowledge is trying to fit them (the verses).

as for other verses:

023.012
And certainly We created man of an extract of clay,

023.013
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;

023.014
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!


035.011
YUSUFALI: And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.

these are some other verses that i know of. there could be more. im not sure.

[جوري]

Greetings Glo

I am not sure you are aware but, Dr. Moore wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline read: "SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT PRAYER BOOK!" Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad (s) and convinced him to put this information in his book.

Dr. Keith Moore-- I am sure has no interest in becoming a Muslim, but is an embryologist. If he can see it? why can't you?

I don't want to digress into other topics.... but embryology isn't the only scientific proof found in the Quran .

There is Also Geology, there is high altitude hypoxia, there is a description of the bee being female a fact that wasn't even known Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time.

There are tons of examples like that, written in a style that is very eloquent, yet can be understood by one who doesn't have an in depth knowledge in any of those fields, science or geology or the sea....A merchant marine was so impressed with the Qur'an's description because he had been in a storm on the sea, and he knew that whoever had written that description had also been in a storm on the sea. The description of "a wave, over it a wave, over it clouds" (Surah Nur, 24:40) was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like. This is one example of how the Qur'an is not tied to certain place and time. Certainly, the scientific ideas expressed in it also do not seem to originate from the desert fourteen centuries ago.

So I guess in the face of overwhelming evidence we can all be "wanting to see" or interpret as we please.... But I highly doubt it...

As a woman who dedicated the last 13 years of her life to science, and as a hobbyist of history, and someone who is fluent in Arabic. I can say without a reasonable doubt ... there is nothing a matter of faith here ... the Quran satisfies both the heart and the mind of those who wish to reflect.

Again when I rummage through the books in the library I'll try to find the Sura and the verse where the bilaminar germ disk differentiates itself further into a trilaminar embryo. As I find that very very specific details, and a disceovery of early last century.

peace

[glo]

Greetings, PurestAmbrosia

Thank you for all your information. It sounds very interesting.

Peace