Homophobia, not injustice, is what really fires the faiths

[root]

Polly Toynbee
Tuesday January 9, 2007
The Guardian


The religious are rallying by torchlight outside parliament this evening. In the Lords they are trying to strike out regulations in the new equality act that outlaw discrimination and harassment of gays, making it illegal to discriminate in providing any goods and services to anyone, from healthcare to hotel rooms. This is a mighty test of strength between the religious and the secular. Any peers against discrimination, get on down the Lords: the vote is at 7.30pm. Will the Tories prove to be gay-friendly?

Christians, Muslims and Jews are all fighting against the sexual orientation regulations with a wrecking clause that would render them meaningless: "Nothing in these regulations shall force an individual to act against their conscience or strongly held religious beliefs." Anyone could use their "conscience" to discriminate against gays.

Get one thing clear: this law does not stop religions from banning gays joining their congregations or becoming priests. (Though they don't seem to be very good at it.) But it does oblige any organisation or business offering services to the public to offer them equally to all comers. Bizarre and repugnant ads in newspapers from Christian organisers have spread outright lies about what this law does. Their campaign, strongly supported by the Daily Mail, has whipped up a degree of homophobia still lurking under an apparently tolerant surface. The gay rights group Stonewall has been horrified at the resurgence of threats and obscene abuse.

To make their case, the religious have struggled to think up extreme scenarios where the law might affect them, but each has proved to be wrong, as ministers have refuted them all.

They claim the law will "force all schools to actively promote homosexual civil partnerships to children (from primary-school age) to the same degree that they teach the importance of marriage". No it won't: the curriculum does not "actively promote" homosexuality, nor even make sex education compulsory. They claim the law will "force a printing shop run by a Christian to print fliers promoting gay sex". No it won't, unless the same printers promote heterosexual porn too. Or how about this one? "Force a family-run B&B to let out a double room to a transsexual couple, even if the family think it in the best interests of their children to refuse to allow such a situation in their home." Oh no it won't: it doesn't even cover transsexuals - and what a daft scenario anyway. The National Secular Society has complained to the Advertising Standards Authority. But on and on go the prurient situations the religious homophobes dream up. The Christian Concern for Our Nation, petitioning the Queen, claims they "love their neighbours", but "Christians, of course, earnestly desire the repentance and salvation of homosexuals".

None of this might matter much if it were just about the strange practices in private of religious bigots. But faith groups already run and are bidding to take over many more social services. If they win this debate, free to discriminate as they please, they will prove themselves utterly unfit to provide state services or receive state funding.

Lord Ferrers in the last debate said hospitals should be allowed to discriminate if they had a Christian ethos. Does that mean they do now? Are they turning away gay Aids patients? He said a pro-life Catholic hospital should be allowed to turn away a lesbian for fertility treatment. (Though any non-Catholic turning to Catholics for fertility treatment needs their head examined.) The Catholic adoption society said it will shut up shop if it has to allow gay couples to apply. Churches say they will never let out a hall to a gay organisation. Christians running soup kitchens say they want to refuse gays shelter and soup. (Soup!) The Catholic Archbishop of Liverpool threatens to withdraw all cooperation over schools and charity programmes if the law goes through. The Bishop of Rochester says it will damage church work in inner cities. (Only if his church shuts down services.) The C of E pretends that the law would force it to bless civil unions (it won't).

Listen to all these good reasons why the state should step back from its current infatuation with faith provision of social services. In a democracy, public services paid for out of general taxes can't be held to ransom by the weird sexual fantasies of unelected service providers. These faith groups are now showing exactly why they should not be running an ever growing number of schools and academies. Homophobic bullying is rife in schools: 15-25 children a year kill themselves due to bullying, many, if not most, tormented because they are perceived to be gay. So why are we putting state schools into the hands of organisations that openly preach homophobia as a creed so holy it trumps all their other good works?

Recently there has been an organised upsurge of religions protesting at secularism. Nothing surprising about a fightback from the Archbishop of Canterbury and the rest against what they claim is militant secularism. That's their job. The recent Guardian ICM poll showed 63% are non-believers, with 82% regarding religion as the cause of division. Fighting back on these pages, Tobias Jones intemperately called secularists totalitarian dictators pretending to be tolerant. However, secularists are not threatening to deny services to the religious: it is they who want to discriminate. Keeping the public sphere free of dogmas is not a denial of the right of anyone to act as they please - so long as they don't harm others.

More alarming is the backsliding of liberal and left thinkers on religion. Neal Lawson, an atheist from leftist pressure group Compass, laid into secularism on these pages. He is right that many religious groups do good work in the toughest inner-city areas. But how depressing to suggest that moral leadership now only resides among the faiths. Indignation about social injustice may be lacking in politics, but today the faiths use their greatest firepower not to challenge gross inequality. No, what ignites their torchlit excitement is, yet again, other people's sexuality. Given an ounce of power they abuse it to deny basic liberties. Last year, they rallied to refuse the right to die with dignity. Now they are back harassing gays. Religion may appeal to some on the left yearning for moral certainty in a complicated world. But today's debate will be a sharp reminder of the intolerance and illiberalism that comes with it. Get on down the Lords for 7.30, you peers!

Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...985899,00.html

[Keltoi]

I agree somewhat. Think of all the good that could be done by the religious community if they put as much passion and effort into social work as they do in stopping the homosexual agenda. That being said, most people of faith view homosexuality as a grave sin, and nothing will change that.

[Dawud_uk]

look,

homosexuality is a sin, but so is hurting someone unjustly without a trial etc.

if you look at the cases they use, they actually spin this one pretty well and it is cunning and well hidden.

lets take this one for example,

They claim the law will "force a printing shop run by a Christian to print fliers promoting gay sex". No it won't, unless the same printers promote heterosexual porn too.

but they could be forced to close if they dont stock books promoting gay christian lifestyles as valid and there are many such gay christian groups so it is a spin, of-course it wont promote gay sex but it can promote gay marriage in a christian bookshop especially if coming from a gay christian.

in the same way a muslim bookshop could be forced to stock literature from the so called progressive muslim movement that promote homosexuality as valid within islam.

here is another...

Or how about this one? "Force a family-run B&B to let out a double room to a transsexual couple, even if the family think it in the best interests of their children to refuse to allow such a situation in their home." Oh no it won't: it doesn't even cover transsexuals - and what a daft scenario anyway.

i have never heard a speaker or newspaper mention transexuals, but a homosexual couple could sue a B&B for not renting them a double bed. this is a spin by mentioning transexuals and making everyone think the same would apply for homosexuals.

it is clever and cunning but also totally wrong to use such spin to promote your argument when you know it is not true.

homosexuality is a sin, and so it should not be promoted or said to be ok, you cant force me to say it is and if laws were introduced forbidding me from saying so then i might have to consider a non violent protest of maybe wearing a t-shirt on that one.

there are many other issues it is true, but with homosexuality being one of the chief means for shaitan to tear down society then it should be argued against and taught that it is wrong.

Abu Abdullah

[wilberhum]

Religions have always justified inequality and discrimination by calling it god's will. It is just Homophobia and other concepts of superority.

[Dawud_uk]

who said i feel superior?

they're could be good muslims sincere in their heart but sinful in this one matter and so superior to me in the sight of Allah.

but homosexuality is a disease of the heart and mind and as such can be cured of their illness and i hope homosexuals look at these cures for the heart and mind that are found in the teachings of Islam.

Abu Abdullah

[arabiyyah]

i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?

[Abdul Fattah]

i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?

Yes the bonobo monkey for example. In their culture sex is traded for food, so a good hunter gets all the action in return for some leftovers of yesterdays dinner. Eventually this leads to situations where weak males who are unable to hunt for food offer their body in return for food. Next to this there are also other effects. Incest for example is also very common among bonobo's due to this.

[root]

i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?

Actually over 250 homosexual practicing species are known about.

[north_malaysian]

Yes the bonobo monkey for example. In their culture sex is traded for food, so a good hunter gets all the action in return for some leftovers of yesterdays dinner. Eventually this leads to situations where weak males who are unable to hunt for food offer their body in return for food. Next to this there are also other effects. Incest for example is also very common among bonobo's due to this.

I dont know this...

[north_malaysian]

Is it true, that Abbasid Caliph Al Ma'mun (813 - 833 CE) had love affairs with Abu Nuwwas?

[Abdul Fattah]

Actually over 250 homosexual practicing species are known about.

Really? By what standards is this counted? I mean I know cases of dogs and goats and so on who do this, but there it's just the case of confusion, dogs will jump on humans' legs too. I know off a guinea pig that used to hump a stuffed animal. All those things do not mean that those animals can be counted as "homosexual practicing species" (or fetishism or bestiality for that matter). Do those 250 animals all have documented cases of males that have a re-occurent pattern of preferring a male partner over a female when both are available? Do these 250 animals actually sodomies each other or just "dry hump"? It's easy to come with a nice round figure like that, but I'd need some sources before you convince me.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

It is ismple.in Islam gays/lesbina are an abomination..""!!!!

sinful..i am sure some moderate muslim would say otherwise.

But for the chrisitan and judaist here,,i would say,,do you have sodom and gammorah in your books?

[wilberhum]

who said i feel superior?

they're could be good muslims sincere in their heart but sinful in this one matter and so superior to me in the sight of Allah.

but homosexuality is a disease of the heart and mind and as such can be cured of their illness and i hope homosexuals look at these cures for the heart and mind that are found in the teachings of Islam.

Abu Abdullah

Your statements are proof of your claim to superority.

[wilberhum]

Salaam,

It is ismple.in Islam gays/lesbina are an abomination..""!!!!

sinful..i am sure some moderate muslim would say otherwise.

But for the chrisitan and judaist here,,i would say,,do you have sodom and gammorah in your books?

Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?

[Fishman]

I class homosexuals into two different groups:
1. People who have homosexual desires, but hate being homosexual, and don't fall to their desires by doing such things as dressing as the opposite gender or having gay sex, for example. Some fatwas I have read say that these people will not be punished for merely having these desires, as we are judged for our actions not our thoughts:
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=33

2. People who want to act on their homosexuality. They are the people who dress as women, have intercourse with other men and go around being proud of being gay. They are like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and are real sinners.
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=33

I think the cause of homosexuality is not because of genetics, nor is it a conscious choice, but since most gay people say that they were gay even in childhood it must be something to do with the development of the child in early life, because they were in a bad environment.

[root]

Steve - Really? By what standards is this counted? I mean I know cases of dogs and goats and so on who do this, but there it's just the case of confusion, dogs will jump on humans' legs too. I know off a guinea pig that used to hump a stuffed animal. All those things do not mean that those animals can be counted as "homosexual practicing species" (or fetishism or bestiality for that matter). Do those 250 animals all have documented cases of males that have a re-occurent pattern of preferring a male partner over a female when both are available? Do these 250 animals actually sodomies each other or just "dry hump"? It's easy to come with a nice round figure like that, but I'd need some sources before you convince me

Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. Researchers have observed monogamy, promiscuity, sex between species, sexual arousal from objects or places, rape, necrophilia, sexual orientation (heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and situational sexual behaviour) and a range of other practices among animals other than humans. Related studies have noted diversity in sexed bodies and gendered behaviour, such as intersex and transgender animals.

The study of animal sexuality (and primate sexuality especially) is a rapidly developing field. It used to be believed that only humans and a handful of species performed sexual acts other than for procreation, and that animals' sexuality was instinctive and a simple response to the "right" stimulation (sight, scent). Current understanding is that many species believed monogamous have now been proven to be promiscuous or opportunistic in nature, a wide range of species appear to both masturbate and to use objects as tools to help them do so, in many species animals try to give and get sexual stimulation with others where procreation is not the aim, and homosexual behavior has now been observed among 1,500 species, and in 500of those it is well documented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...exual_behavior

African Buffalo
African Elephant
Agile Wallaby
Amazon River Dolphin (Boto)
American Bison
Aperea
Asian Elephant
Asiatic Mouflon
Atlantic Spotted Dolphin
Australian Sea Lion
Barasingha
Barbary Sheep
Beluga
Bharal
Bighorn Sheep
Black Bear
Blackbuck
Black-footed Rock Wallaby
Black-tailed Deer
Bonnet Macaque
Bonobo
Bottlenose Dolphin
Bowhead Whale
Bridled Dolphin
Brown Bear
Brown Capuchin
Brown Long-eared Bat
Brown Rat
Caribou
Cat (domestic)
Cattle (domestic)
Cheetah
Collared Peccary
Commerson's Dolphin
Common Brushtail Possum
Common Chimpanzee
Common Dolphin
Common Marmoset
Common Pipistrelle
Common Raccoon
Common Tree Shrew
Cotton-top Tamarin
Crab-eating Macaque
Crested Black Macaque
Cui
Dall's Sheep
Daubenton's Bat
Dog (domestic)
Doria's Tree Kangaroo
Dugong
Dwarf Cavy
Dwarf Mongoose
Eastern Cottontail Rabbit
Eastern Gray Kangaroo
Elk
Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)
European Bison
Fallow Deer
False Killer Whale
Fat-tailed Dunnart
Fin Whale
Fox
Gelada Baboon
Giraffe
Goat (Domestic)
Golden Monkey
Gorilla
Grant's Gazelle
Gray-headed Flying Fox
Gray Seal
Gray Squirrel
Gray Whale
Gray Wolf
Grizzly Bear
Guinea Pig (Domestic)
Hamadryas Baboon
Hamster (Domestic)
Hanuman Langur
Harbor Porpoise
Harbor Seal
Himalayan Tahr
Hoary Marmot
Horse (domestic)
Human
Indian Fruit Bat
Indian Muntjac
Indian Rhinoceros
Japanese Macaque
Javelina
Kangaroo Rat
Killer Whale
Koala
Kob
Larga Seal
Least Chipmunk
Lechwe
Lesser Bushbaby
Lion
Lion-tailed Macaque
Lion Tamarin
Little Brown Bat
Livingstone's Fruit Bat
Long-eared Hedgehog
Long-footed Tree Shrew
Markhor
Marten
Matschie's Tree Kangaroo
Mohol Galago
Moor Macaque
Moose
Mountain Goat
Mountain Tree Shrew
Mountain Zebra
Mouse (domestic)
Moustached Tamarin
Mule Deer
Musk-ox
Natterer's Bat
New Zealand Sea Lion
Nilgiri Langur
Noctule
North American Porcupine
Northern Elephant Seal
Northern Fur Seal
Northern Quoll
Olympic Marmot
Orangutan
Orca
Pacific Striped Dolphin
Patas Monkey
Pere David's Deer
Pig (Domestic)
Pig-tailed Macaque
Plains Zebra
Polar Bear
Pretty-faced Wallaby
Proboscis Monkey
Pronghorn
Przewalski's Horse
Puku
Quokka
Rabbit
Raccoon Dog
Red Deer
Red Fox
Red Kangaroo
Red-necked Wallaby
Red Squirrel
Reeves's Muntjac
Reindeer
Rhesus Macaque
Right Whale
Rock Cavy
Rodrigues Fruit Bat
Roe Deer
Rufous Bettong
Rufous-naped Tamarin
Rufous Rat Kangaroo
Saddle-back Tamarin
Savanna Baboon
Sea Otter
Serotine Bat
Sheep (Domestic)
Siamang
Sika Deer
Slender Tree Shrew
Sooty Mangabey
Sperm Whale
Spinifex Hopping Mouse
Spinner Dolphin
Spotted Hyena
Spotted Seal
Squirrel Monkey
Striped Dolphin
Stuart's Marsupial Mouse
Stumptail Macaque
Swamp Deer
Swamp Wallaby
Takhi
Talapoin
Tammar Wallaby
Tasmanian Devil
Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo
Thinhorn Sheep
Thomson's Gazelle
Tiger
Tonkean Macaque
Tucuxi
Urial
Vampire Bat
Verreaux's Sifaka
Vervet
Vicuna
Walrus
Wapiti
Warthog
Waterbuck
Water Buffalo
Weeper Capuchin
Western Gray Kangaroo
West Indian Manatee
Whiptail Wallaby
White-faced Capuchin
White-fronted Capuchin
White-handed Gibbon
White-lipped Peccary
White-tailed Deer
Wild Cavy
Wild Goat
Wisent
Yello-footed Rock Wallaby
Yellow-toothed Cavy

[edit] Birds
Acorn Woodpecker
Adelie Penguin
Anna's Hummingbird
Australian Shelduck
Aztec Parakeet
Bangalese Finch (Domestic)
Bank Swallow
Barn Owl
Bicolored Antbird
Black-billed Magpie
Black-crowned Night Heron
Black-headed Gull
Black-rumped Flameback
Black Stilt
Black Swan
Black-winged Stilt
Blue-backed Manakin
Blue-bellied Roller
Blue Tit
Blue-winged Teal
Brown-headed Cowbird
Budgerigar (Domestic)
Buff-breasted Sandpiper
Calfbird
California Gull
Canada Goose
Canary-winged Parakeet
Caspian Tern
Cattle Egret
Chaffinch
Chicken (Domestic)
Chiloe Wigeon
Cliff Swallow
Common Gull
Common Murre
Common Shelduck
Crane spp.
Dusky Moorhen
Eastern Bluebird
Egyptian Goose
Elegant Parrot
Emu
European Jay
European Shag
Flamingo
Galah
Gentoo Penguin
Golden Bishop Bird
Golden Plover
Gray-breasted Jay
Gray-capped Social Weaver
Gray Heron
Grayling
Great Cormorant
Greater Bird of Paradise
Greater Rhea
Green Sandpiper
Greenshank
Greylag Goose
Griffon Vulture
Guianan Cock-of-the-Rock
Guillemot
Herring Gull
Hoary-headed Grebe
Hooded Warbler
House Sparrow
Humboldt Penguin
Ivory Gull
Jackdaw
Kestrel
King Penguin
Kittiwake
Laughing Gull
Laysan Albatross
Least Darter
Lesser Flamingo
Lesser Scaup Duck
Little Blue Heron
Little Egret
Long-tailed Hermit Hummingbird
Mallard
Masked Lovebird
Mealy Amazon Parrot
Mew Gull
Mexican Jay
Musk Duck
Mute Swan
Ocellated Antbird
Ocher-bellied Flycatcher
Orange Bishop Bird
Orange-footed Parakeet
Ornate Lorikeet
Ostrich
Oystercatcher
Peach-faced Lovebird
Pied Flycatcher
Pied Kingfisher
Pigeon (Domestic)
Powerful Owl
Purple Swamphen
Raggiana's Bird of Paradise
Raven
Razorbill
Red-backed Shrike
Red Bishop Bird
Red-faced Lovebird
Redshank
Red-shouldered Widowbird
Regent Bowerbird
Ring-billed Gull
Ring Dove
Rock Dove
Roseate Cockatoo
Roseate Tern
Rose-ringed Parakeet
Ruff
Ruffed Grouse
Sage Grouse
San Blas Jay
Sand Martin
Satin Bowerbird
Scarlet Ibis
Scottish Crossbill
Senegal Parrot
Sharp-tailed Sparrow
Silver Gull
Silvery Grebe
Snow Goose
Steller's Sea Eagle
Superb Lyrebird
Swallow-tailed Manakin
Tasmanian Native Hen
Tree Swallow
Trumpeter Swan
Turkey (Domestic)
Victoria's Riflebird
Wattled Starling
Western Gull
White-fronted Amazon Parrot
White Stork
Wood Duck
Yellow-backed (Chattering) Lorikeet
Yellow-rumped Cacique
Zebra Finch (Domestic)

[edit] Fish
Amazon molly
Blackstripe Topminnow
Bluegill Sunfish
Char
European Bitterling
Green swordtail
Guiana leaffish
Hammerhead
Houting Whitefish
Jewel Fish
Mouthbreeding Fish sp.
Salmon spp.
Southern platyfish
Ten-spined stickleback
Three-spined stickleback

[edit] Other vertebrates
Anole sp.
Appalachian Woodland Salamander
Black-spotted Frog
Broad-headed Skink
Checkered Whiptail Lizard
Chihuahuan Spotted Whiptail Lizard
Common Ameiva
Common Garter Snake
Cuban Green Anole
Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard
Desert Tortoise
Fence Lizard
Five-lined Skink
Gopher (Pine) Snake
Green Anole
Inagua Curlytail Lizard
Jamaican Giant Anole
Laredo Striped Whiptail Lizard
Largehead Anole
Mountain Dusky Salamander
Mourning Gecko
Plateau Striped Whiptail Lizard
Red Diamond Rattlesnake
Red-tailed Skink
Side-blotched Lizard
Speckled Rattlesnake
Tengger Desert Toad
Water Moccasin
Western Rattlesnake
Western Banded Gecko
Whiptail Lizard spp.
Wood Turtle

[edit] Insects and other invertebrates
Acanthocephalan Worms
Alfalfa Weevil
Australian Parasitic Wasp sp.
Bean Weevil sp.
Bedbug and other Bug spp.
Blister Beetle spp.
Blowfly
Box Crab
Broadwinged Damselfly sp.
Cabbage (Small) White
Checkerspot Butterfly
Clubtail Dragonfly spp.
Cockroach spp.
Common Skimmer Dragonfly spp.
Creeping Water Bug sp.
Digger Bee
Dragonfly spp.
Eastern Giant Ichneumon
Eucalyptus Longhorned Borer
Field Cricket sp.
Fruit Fly spp.
Glasswing Butterfly
Grape Berry Moth
Grape Borer
Green Lacewing
Harvest Spider sp.
Hawaiian Orb-Weaver
Hen Flea
House Fly
Ichneumon Wasp sp.
Incirrate Octopus spp.
Japanese Scarab Beetle
Jumping Spider sp.
Larch Bud Moth
Large Milkweed Bug
Large White
Long-legged Fly spp.
Mazarine Blue
Mediterranean Fruit Fly
Mexican White
Midge sp.
Migratory Locust
Mite sp.
Monarch Butterfly
Narrow-winged Damselfly spp.
Parsnip Leaf Miner
Pomace Fly
Prea
Queen Butterfly
Red Ant sp.
Red Flour Beetle
Reindeer Warble Fly
Rosechafer
Rove Beetle spp.
Scarab Beetle, Melolonthine
Screwworm Fly
Silkworm Moth
Sociable Weaver
Southeastern Blueberry Bee
Southern Green Stink Bug
Southern Masked Chafer
Southern One-Year Canegrub
Spreadwinged Damselfly spp.
Spruce Budworm Moth
Stable Fly sp.
Stag Beetle spp.
Tsetse Fly
Water Boatman Bug
Water Strider spp.




[edit] Sources
Bagemihl, Bruce. Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. St. Martin's Press, 1999. ISBN 0-312-19239-8
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior"

[Zulkiflim]

Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?

Salaam,

Muslim are supposed to keep each other in line.

Each individual are supposed to keep each other in line.
Or dont your parent teach you anything..

did you not learn the concept of honesty,truth and justice from your predecessor?
Or do you make it up yourself.

Like wise laws are made and the divine law makes clear that gay and lesbian are an abomination.
their action are despicable and they should refrain from it.

[AHMED_GUREY]

wow@ the Animal Kingdom

what happened?

no i don't believe a gay lion exist anywhere in Africa

thats a 300 pounds killing machine right there

don't expect any funny-walking from the King:blind:

[Dawud_uk]

it seems the the sinfuls latest justification for behaving like beasts, like dogs, humping anything in the street is well that some dogs and other beasts behave in this way...

strange logic really. i suppose this is what comes when people follow darwinism and see themselves as no different to animals.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Zone Maker]

Strange trying to justify such filth by pointing out that animals do it. The same creature's that use violence as a daily way of living. So basically I can justify any act referring to animals (such as murder, homosexuality, burglary, treachery, etc). Glad that I am a Muslim.