Israel is cause of bigger problems than allocating men and women in buses.
Israel's 'modesty buses' draw fire
The other day I was waiting for a bus in downtown Jerusalem. I was in the bustling orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of Mea Sharim and the bus stop was extremely crowded.
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.
When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women.
These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".
The separation system operates on 30 public bus routes across Israel.
The authorities here say the arrangement is voluntary, but in practise, as I found out, there is not much choice involved.
'Abuse and threats'
Naomi Regen is one of a group of women now taking the separation bus system to court. She is an orthodox Jew herself.
"I wasn't trying to start a revolution, all I wanted to do was get home," she tells me.
"I was in downtown Jerusalem and I saw a bus going straight to my neighbourhood and I got on and sat down, in a single seat behind the driver.
"It was a completely empty bus, and all of a sudden, some men started getting on, ultra-orthodox men. They told me I was not allowed to sit there, I had to go to the back of the bus."
Not only is the segregation system discriminatory, says Ms Regen, but it can also be dangerous, she says, for those like her who ignore it.
"I said to him look, if you bring me a code of Jewish law and show me where it's written that I have to sit at the back of the bus I'll move.
"And he tried to gain support from the rest of the passengers and I underwent a half-hour of pure hell - abuse, humiliation, threats, even physical intimidation."
'Positive discrimination'
Supporters of the separation system say the buses involved serve mainly religious Jewish neighbourhoods - but not exclusively.
"Modesty bus" in orthodox Jewish neighbourhood in Israel
Men only through the front door of Israel's "modesty buses"
Many passengers are not happy. You will hear complaints at bus stops all over town.
One man told me that if some people wanted segregation buses they should pay a private company to provide them.
Another told me that in a society that is democratic and where the buses are subsidised by the government, a minority's concerns should not override those of the majority.
But Shlomo Rosenstein disagrees. He is a city councillor in Jerusalem where a large proportion of Israel's segregation lines operate.
"This really is about positive discrimination, in women's favour. Our religion says there should be no public contact between men and women, this modesty barrier must not be broken."
Uphill struggle
Opponents of the separation buses face an uphill struggle. Orthodox Jewish leaders are a powerful minority in Israel.
Naomi Regen says the buses are just part of a wider menacing pattern of behaviour towards women in parts of the orthodox Jewish community.
"They've already cancelled higher education in the ultra-orthodox world for women. They have packed the religious courts with ultra-orthodox judges.
"In some places there are separate sides of the street women have to walk on."
She says that there are signs all over some religious neighbourhoods demanding that women dress modestly.
"They throw paint and bleach at women who aren't dressed modestly and if we don't draw a line in the sand here with this seat on a bus, then I don't know what this country and this religion is going to look like in 20 years," Ms Regen said.
Petitioners like Naomi Regen have asked Israel's High Court to either ban the segregation buses altogether or to force bus companies to provide parallel bus routes for passengers wanting to sit where they like.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm
comment: Good to see that immodest women are being harassed by a group other than the Muslims. And I don’t see why the tolerant and democratic part of the society can’t respect different lifestyles.
-SI-
Israel is cause of bigger problems than allocating men and women in buses.
Extremism in anything is just plainly wrong.
There's a difference between 'modesty' and discrimination, it is clear that women in that community are looked down upon.
Hmm...Interesting...provided its a Muslim country...One man told me that if some people wanted segregation buses they should pay a private company to provide them.
Sounds cool to me, I had a picture of a modest bus in my mind to be a bit like thomas the tank engine but with hijaab...ok yeah, ermmm I think it would be a good idea in a Islamic state to have 'modesty buses'.
Salaam,
well an interesting story,i tried to post this at our SG forum but the moderators deleted it.
No education for women
Segregation
Modesty
Punishment for beign immodest.
All that is eveil about the Taliban ..but somehow not a comment of how eveil and backward these judasit are..
wonder why..
I think it is because the government is not endorsing it and strictly enforcing it, it should be stopped though in my opinion, either that or these people just need to find a different bus, no one is forcing them to rideformat_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Shalom! Before you jump to conclusions please read this:
The neighborhoods where these buses are, are 100% Ultra-Orthodox. Not 99.9%, that is to low of an estimate. They cannot ride the buses if they are not run with modestly in mind, therefore, I will stress that since the people in this area democraticaly elect officials and there taxes are what fund the buses they should have a say in what the few buses that run through their own neighborhoods do. Now for non-orthodox people, they go to these neighborhoods for the sole purpose of taking pictures, and being amused by what they view as extremist fundamentalists of a religion, who are "backwards" in their minds.
They should have respect for the communities view of morality before they enter it, instead of insisting on imposing there view of morality on the people.
The only scary part of the story is the fact that it continues to describe all Jews based on the violent actions of a few by saying "they" numerous times. A fact that Muslims, if they are truly interested in more then their own freedom to practice modestly, and deny extremism should think about.
That is all.
Last edited by rav; 04-26-2007 at 08:54 PM.
Shalom Aleichem,Extremism in anything is just plainly wrong.
There's a difference between 'modesty' and discrimination, it is clear that women in that community are looked down upon.
Before making such a statement, I would advise you to consider actually looking into what you speak about, unless you of course never challenge the secularists who claim Islam is an opressive religion towards women. If you agree with the secularists then your view of religion and a womens role creates a situation where it is not even worth it to discuss your concerns.
Did you know that in Japan... 'modesty train' .
sourceJune 10, 2005 — Japan's capital is facing an epidemic of men who can't keep their hands to themselves, and it's happening inside one of its most famous symbols — the trains.
Whether above the crowded streets or below ground, Tokyo's trains are renowned for their efficiency and cleanliness.
But according to a survey conducted in Tokyo last year, nearly 64 percent of Japanese women in their 20s and 30s said they've been groped on trains, subways or at transit stations in the city.
Women Often Ashamed to Speak Out
These subway gropers — who lean, rub and pinch during the remarkably crowded rush hours — are known in Japanese as "chikan."
Victims are often ashamed to show their faces. They say the experience is degrading, humiliating and frightening, but most are too embarrassed to react when it's happening.
"They think it's a kind of shame to say something or to cry, 'Help, help,'" said Mihoko Ejiri, a professor at Tsuda College of Women.
Women-Only Train Cars
But now, there is some temporary relief for Japanese women — a train car of their own. It's just an experiment now, and only during rush hour, but for those who have been harassed, it has made a huge difference.
One woman passenger told ABC News, "Because it's just only girls, females, and we don't touch, you know, so … [it's] very safe!"
Even most men seem to think the women-only cars are fair. Many men worry about being falsely accused of groping if they accidentally brush up against a woman in a packed train. Gropers can be imprisoned for up to seven years or fined up to $485.
But there's also some grumbling, especially in overcrowded adjacent cars, where the men are packed like sardines, while the ladies ride in comfort.
However, as one newpaper editorial in Tokyo suggested, the victims did not bring about the women-only experiment, but the "chikan."
Only now.... Malaysia is trying to implement woman-only bus which getting alot of protest from the so-called equal-rights extremist.
rav,
is this part true?
"Naomi Regen says the buses are just part of a wider menacing pattern of behaviour towards women in parts of the orthodox Jewish community.
"They've already cancelled higher education in the ultra-orthodox world for women. They have packed the religious courts with ultra-orthodox judges.
"In some places there are separate sides of the street women have to walk on."
I dont mind a separate bus for women. All the fun to talk freelylol. Keep you from fitnah and such u know.
Shalom,format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
1. I doubt it, let me ask, why is it always viewed as women are seated away from men? Why not look at it like men are not aloud in the womens section?
2. There is no cancellation of higher education for women, because it was non-existant just like ultra-orthodox men. The men in Ultra-Orthodox communities will find work with a GED/HS diploma, and then maybe take night school college classes along with all day Torah learning in a Yeshiva. The women are the same case with the night school. There is no usser ever issued by an great Rabbi that I have ever heard of that limits women getting a higher education. A reason a women may not be able to get a higher education is because of the tendency to marry early and begin have a lot of kids, but in such situations, the man usually must find work to go along with his studies, and will usually not be going much farther into higher education as well.
3. Again, the writer says: "In some places there are separate sides of the street women have to walk on." However, why not say that the men in some places have to walk on the seperate sides of the street? But before even going further into that topic, I would like to let you know that while in the Ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Meah Shearim, I saw no such thing and I was there last april.
Interesting. I usually never take buses anyway.
I can't believe that lady is making such a big deal about a segregated bus... that is so lame.
Man, I wish they had those kind of buses where I live!!!!!!
Exactly!1. I doubt it, let me ask, why is it always viewed as women are seated away from men? Why not look at it like men are not aloud in the womens section?
Some people...
Last edited by Malaikah; 04-27-2007 at 08:10 AM.
It's not a government initiative, nor is it the law. But I agree, like the Taliban, these people are intolerant and this is a slippery slope.format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
:Sl:format_quote Originally Posted by JazzyI dont mind a separate bus for women. All the fun to talk freely
innit, atleast you done have to worry about stinky old men coming in a full bus and sitting next to you
kAding do you know if the taliban did this? dont acuse them then. saudi arabias buses are like this and i think its so cool. theres even a screen for the woman.
Men and women separate on buses. Whats shocking to me is that a country like Israel still practice some noble deeds. The ones in charge of things are still the zionists, they are anything but peaceful or religious. It kinda ruins it for the normal jews who want to live in peace.
I am sure jews and arabs follow the same moral codes, when it comes to basic everyday life, its not a matter that they cant get along its just certain people dont want this to happen.
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