What are your opinions about that?
Christian Convert Fights Malaysian Law
By EILEEN NG 05.27.07, 1:38 PM ET
Lina Joy has been disowned by her family, shunned by friends and forced into hiding - all because she renounced Islam and embraced Christianity in Muslim-majority Malaysia.
Now, after a seven-year legal struggle, Malaysia's highest court will decide on Wednesday whether her constitutional right to choose her religion overrides an Islamic law that prohibits Malay Muslims from leaving Islam.
Either way, the verdict will have profound implications on society in a country where Islam is increasingly conflicting with minority religions, challenging Malaysia's reputation as a moderate Muslim and multicultural nation that guarantees freedom of worship.
Joy's case began in 1998 when, after converting, she applied for a name change on her government identity card. The National Registration Department obliged but refused to drop Muslim from the religion column.
She appealed the decision to a civil court but was told she must take it to Islamic Shariah courts. But Joy, 42, has argued that she should not be bound by Shariah law because she is a Christian.
Subsequent appeals all ruled that the Shariah court should decide the case until it reached the highest court, the Federal Court, which will make the final decision on whether Muslims who renounce their faith must still answer to the country's Islamic courts.
About 60 percent of Malaysia's 26 million people are Malay Muslims, whose civil, family, marriage and personal rights are decided by Shariah courts. The minorities - the ethnic Chinese, Indians and other smaller communities - are governed by civil courts.
But the constitution does not say who has the final say in cases such as Joy's when Islam confronts Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions.
If Joy loses her appeal and continues to insist she is a Christian, it could lead to charges of apostasy and a possible jail sentence.
"Our country is at a crossroad," Joy's lawyer, Benjamin Dawson, told The Associated Press. "Are we evolving into an Islamic state or are we going to maintain the secular character of the constitution?"
The founding fathers of Malaysia left the constitution deliberately vague, unwilling to upset any of the three ethnic groups dominant at the time of independence from Britain 50 years ago, when building a peaceful multiracial nation was more important.
The situation was muddied further with the constitution describing Malaysia as a secular state but recognizing Islam as the official religion.
Joy's case "will decide the space of religious freedom in Malaysia," said Dawson. If she wins, "it means that the constitutionally guaranteed right of freedom of religion prevails. If she loses, that means the constitutional guarantee is subservient to Islamic restrictions," he said.
Joy's decision to leave Islam sparked angry street protests by Muslim groups and led to e-mail death threats against Malik Imtiaz Sarwar, a Muslim lawyer supporting her. The widely circulated anonymous e-mail described him as a "traitor" to Islam and carried his picture with the caption "Wanted Dead."
Proselytizing of Muslims is banned in Malaysia and apostasy is regarded a crime punishable by fines and jail sentences. Offenders are often sent to prison-like rehabilitation centers.
Many Islamic nations have similar laws. Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. The case of an Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity caused an outcry in the United States and other nations, and Afghanistan released him.
Even Jordan, considered one of the most tolerant countries in the Middle East, convicted a Muslim man for converting to Christianity several years ago, taking away his right to work and annulling his marriage.
By law, all Malays have to be Muslim and few convert. Those who do prefer to keep it quiet.
Some seek legal approval for their action, but civil courts invariably refer the case back to the Shariah courts.
Joy was born Azlina Jailani and began going to church in 1990. She was baptized eight years later. She then applied for the changes to her identity card.
When authorities refused her request to drop Muslim from the religion designation, Joy went to the High Court in May 2000 but was told to go to Shariah courts. She challenged the decision in the Court of Appeal but lost, and took it to Malaysia's highest court in 2005.
The hearing in Federal Court ended in July 2006, but it has taken the judges until now to declare a verdict, saying a careful examination was necessary because of the sensitivity of the case.
Meanwhile, Joy has been disowned by her family and forced to quit her computer sales job after clients threatened to withdraw their business. Joy and her ethnic Indian Catholic boyfriend, known only as Johnson, went into hiding early 2006 amid fears they could be targeted by Muslim zealots, Dawson said.
"Lina is very steadfast in her belief. She is aware that her chances (of winning) are slim but is putting her faith in God. She is just an ordinary Malaysian girl who wants to lead an ordinary life."
Joy has never made any public appearances and has rejected requests for interviews.
In a sworn statement to a lower court in 2000, she said she felt "more peace in my spirit and soul after having become a Christian."
Muslim groups, however, say Joy is questioning the position of Islam by taking the case to the civil courts.
"It is not about one person, it is about challenging the Islamic system in Malaysia," said Muslim Youth Movement President Yusri Mohammad, who set up a coalition of 80 Islamic groups to oppose Joy's case.
"By doing this openly, she is encouraging others to do the same. It may open the floodgates to other Muslims because once it is a precedent, it becomes an option."
If Joy wins her case, he warned, it could rend Malaysia's multiracial fabric by fomenting Muslim anger against minorities, who have largely lived in peace with Malays. There has been no racial violence in the country since the May 1969 Malay-Chinese riots that killed dozens.
Dawson said several apostasy cases are on hold in the civil courts, pending a verdict in Joy's case.
"Both the man in the street and lawyers want to know once and for all how to draw the line between civil and Shariah courts - whether Muslims can convert and if yes, what are the procedures," he said.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/...ap3761905.html
What are your opinions about that?
Howdy Aaron,
Well, I do wonder what this thread will be good for. Out of curiosity, are our opinions the reason for the thread?format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Other than that, I think its pretty amazing, at least she is Christian so she believes that if she dies or goes prison she'll be in heaven or something and I mean she'd have some hope in a next life.
As for the 'Islamic state' and 'Tolerant Country' and so forth, I wonder if Muslims will take into this 'either/or' mentality or not.
As for her personally, then it would be nice to speak to her, see her views, inquire, (last time I said this someone thought I mean I'd capture her, no no dont think I'd do that) ask why and so forth, but in the end I wouldn't be suprised.
Eesa
This goes back to compulsion in religion. Is she free to choose whether she wants to be Muslim or not?
I'll quote bro Ansar:
In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?
Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:
47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?
51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?
29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.
2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.
3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.
4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
From another of my posts:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'AdlAs a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...format_quote Originally Posted by blunderbus
First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.
If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.
_______
Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
Come on, we must by now get the jist of compulsion and apostacy in Islaam.
There are threads on that.
If the only point of this is to see the views on apostacy and laws in islam then maybe we can take it to one of those threads?
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Yes, they are. I want to know, if you agree that she should or should not have the right to leave islam and choose christianity.
I think that this thread wasnt posted before on IslamicBoard.
No no, i dont wanna hear quotes from islamic law, i just want to know your own opinion about this particalar situation.format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Should Lina Joy have right to leave islam in Malaysia, or not.
Thats all.
Thanks for approving my thread folks
Referring to that question, would she have the right to leave christianity and become Muslim?
Because there are verses from the bible which state otherwise.
A female's apostasy is not considered treason according to Hanafi school.format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
You do realise a Muslim's opinion should be the Islamic Law right?format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85No no, i dont wanna hear quotes from islamic law, i just want to know your own opinion about this particalar situation.
Should Lina Joy have right to leave islam in Malaysia, or not.
Thats all.
Thanks for approving my thread folks
So my answer or opion is what the Islamic law is.
ill base my opinion on your culture, no, she doesnt, such as in ww1 and ww2 traitors would be killed, hence ill base my opinion as i said on your culture. thank you.format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85No no, i dont wanna hear quotes from islamic law, i just want to know your own opinion about this particalar situation.
Should Lina Joy have right to leave islam in Malaysia, or not.
Thats all.
Thanks for approving my thread folks
In my own opinion she should definitely have the right to leave christianity and embrace islam if she wanted to.format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
But how is she a traitor? Is there a war now in Malaysia? And what about " no compulsion in religion" ?format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
Are we now gonna take no compulsion in religion from our own Tafsirs or the way of the Prophet? peace be upon him.
This is all it kind of boils down to I guess, why should she be killed or imprisoned.
Why this and so forth which would be better suited for the other threads.
Maybe she should just leave the country or not get her name changed, if she's a Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
But that wouldn't be the right thing to do if it went against your religion right?
DeuteronomyI know you dont have the intention of attacking Islaam, but i just want to clarify that it's not only Islaam.
Chapter 13
KJV
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
We follow our religion whole-heartedly, and if something goes against that - then we take God and His Messenger's command over our view. Since God has more knowledge than us, and He is the All Wise, All Knowing.
PS: You might also find this beneficial: Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion
Regards.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yes, i don't. I am just interested in this particular situation which i am interested from many reasons.
Anyway thnx for help.
Whatever verses from the Bible might say (and verses from the OT rather than the NT are hardly relevant in that context anyway), name one 'Christian' country where the same thing would happen if someone converted from Christianity to Islam?format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Any law that prevents freedom of choice in religion is to be condemned. There is no 'cultural' excuse for one, or many, persons to attempt to deny religious freedom and choice to another.
Last edited by Trumble; 05-28-2007 at 10:26 PM.
Thats it! You expressed my own thoughts very well.format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Its true that in christian countries ( or with christian majority) it never happens that a convert to islam( former christian) is threaten a jail or has to fight for his rights in courts.
Just imagine, if Lina Joy was a christian living in Holland for example, and after she converts to islam, she would have the same troubles as has the woman in Malaysia now, dozens of islamic organizations would condemn this act and cry about islamophobic and racist Europe.
In my opinion, anyone that would harm another for making a personnel choice, conceders themselves superior. In a society of equals, they are the apostates because they deny equality.format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
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