What is Shariah? Whenever any mention is made of the Shariah, usually two facts emerge, viz. (i ) the cutting off of hands, and (ii) stoning to death for adultery. This is generally accompanied by ridicule and contempt. Yet the same people, when any member of their family is murdered, raped or kidnapped, would cry out: “Bring back the death penalty! Let’s have some law and order!”
Shariah is derived from the Arabic word Shaar-i’ ( ) “a way; to oil the smooth and orderly movement of the social and economic activities of society.” Through the Shariah we derive our rights and obligations, justice and protection within the state.
Crime: A crime is an act or conduct whereby a person ( i) breaks the law, and (ii) infringes upon the rights of oth*ers. In the religious parlance it is called “a sin”.
Punishment: Before one can even think of punishment for any crime, it is incumbent upon the state to see that conditions and opportunities exist for the proper education and training for its citizens to be gainfully and productively occupied.
In order to prevent and curb crime, the authorities have to implement punishment. Punishment may be in different forms: (i ) fine; (ii) imprisonment; (iii) corporal (bodily). Islam does not subscribe to the prison system as a form of punishment for crime because:
it incurs great cost - a portion of the state funds is directed to the upkeep and maintenance
of the prison system - thus robbing other important projects, like education, free health care and
training people to apply themselves in proper, productive, and meaningful occupation, thereby
actually preventing crime;
the taxpayer has to foot the bill - thus increasing the burden on an already struggling economy
and spiraling cost of living;
people may land up in prisons and meet great “tutors”. On being released, they become more
hardened and daring. A person guilty of a petty civil offence may be placed together with
hardened career criminals, murderers and rapists and may be influ*enced by them in their evil,
anti-social ways;
from the point of view of health, we know that the prisons may be infected with sexually
transmitted diseases (STD), like gonorrhea, syphilis, HIV/AIDS, and so on. A
prisoner is liable to contract these diseases, and on being released, pass these on to the members
of his family. And, don’t we often hear of prisoners raping one another?
it is a social responsibility of every person to function either as a father, mother, and so on.
When an individual is incarcerated, the family is robbed of a breadwinner, a caring father or
husband, a wife or mother. When a father (or mother) is taken away, the rest of the family goes
astray in his/her absence. Irrespective of how rotten or evil a person may be, his family life is
important and acts as a great “therapy”. Why should such a person not rather be gainfully
employed (under correctional supervision) for the benefit of his family?
The above are just some of the shortcomings of the prison system.
The Islamic form of punishment: For most of the crimes, Islam recommends corporal (bodily) punishment. However, it is carried out only as a last resort - after a thorough effort at reforming the person has totally failed. (Quran, 5:39)
Punishment must be meted out in public: The Quran tells us that a party of the people should witness the meting out of the punishment (24:2). Special stadiums and arenas should be built and the public should be actually invited to view the punitive act being carried out. It could even be televised these days - as the Americans televise the death penalty by lethal injection. Why? The Quran states that viewing such scenes wherein various punishments are carried out, could serve as a deterrent and a lesson for the public. (5:38)
A sure and definite advantage is that justice is not only done, but it is also “seen to be done”. There should be no mercy or favoritism shown when inflicting the punishment. The criminal would be so humiliated that he would never think of committing the crime - any crime - again.
Type of punishment: From time to time the state, in consultation with the judiciary, would decide what punishment should be prescribed for different types of crimes. For example: for theft, from a few (one or two) lashes for petty theft to the severing off of the hand for HARDENED, HABITUAL criminals who are beyond reform.
In South Africa, the Correctional Services are facing immense problems. The prisons are overcrowded; diseases are rife, petty criminals are imprisoned with hardened criminals, and so on.
At least, let us begin by flogging publicly for certain selected crimes. The prisons will not be over-full, and the criminals will be back at home to look after their responsibilities thus, also, getting a chance to rehabilitate and become decent, law-abiding and useful members of society!
I think you misunderstand Westerners' problems with Shariah law. While we do have a problem with the severity of the punishments Shariah prescribes, I think a bigger issue is with what types of crimes are punishable in Shariah law.
For example, unless I am mistaken, blasphemy and adultery are punishable by death in Shariah law. As a Westerner I fail to see why either of these things should be punishable at all, and I would strongly oppose any ideological system that sought to punish them.
I think you misunderstand Westerners' problems with Shariah law. While we do have a problem with the severity of the punishments Shariah prescribes, I think a bigger issue is with what types of crimes are punishable in Shariah law.
For example, unless I am mistaken, blasphemy and adultery are punishable by death in Shariah law. As a Westerner I fail to see why either of these things should be punishable at all, and I would strongly oppose any ideological system that sought to punish them.
I hope u took it wrong brother.
The Severity in Punishment is implemented in two ways.
1. According to the way the nation structures the law
2. According to the way the real Shariah law describes.
I am sure the first point is merged with the second, like they merge Muslim names to terrorist on every place. where other terrorist are not associated to their Religion
The Severity in Punishment is implemented in two ways.
1. According to the way the nation structures the law
2. According to the way the real Shariah law describes.
I am sure the first point is merged with the second, like they merge Muslim names to terrorist on every place. where other terrorist are not associated to their Religion
I'm not sure if you understood my post. Again, my problem is not so much with the severity of Shariah law punishment as with the subjects of punishment.
Shariah law says that people who mock religious figures or choose to sleep with people outside of marraige deserve to be killed. This bothers me much more than chopping off thieves' hands.
Shariah law says that people who mock religious figures or choose to sleep with people outside of marraige deserve to be killed. This bothers me much more than chopping off thieves' hands.
That's exactly the idea!!! - if a punishment is not severe.... and if it doesn't really bother you... that means us... then - why bother being afraid of committing sins like .... fornication or adultery?... in fact - the bible suggests that the wrath of the jealous husband is worst and one should really avoid it." - In the Netherlands - people would commit a petty crime just to be jailed. Why? - because they have a good bed, good heater, pool tables, television and beer inside the jail". In other poorer countries - sin or criminality is poverty driven... without a shariah form of law whatsoever will only make human life more inhuman with the prison or jailing system. Reflect on it.:sunny:
La illaha illalah
45: Surah-al-Jahtiyah
verse 20: "This Qur'an is a Clear Proof and Evidence for Mankind and a Guidance and Mercy for a people who have faith with certainty.
That's exactly the idea!!! - if a punishment is not severe.... and if it doesn't really bother you... that means us... then - why bother being afraid of committing sins like .... fornication or adultery?... in fact - the bible suggests that the wrath of the jealous husband is worst and one should really avoid it." - In the Netherlands - people would commit a petty crime just to be jailed. Why? - because they have a good bed, good heater, pool tables, television and beer inside the jail". In other poorer countries - sin or criminality is poverty driven... without a shariah form of law whatsoever will only make human life more inhuman with the prison or jailing system. Reflect on it.:sunny:
Again, I don't think you're understanding me.
I don't care that much about the severity of the punishments.
I DO care about what is being punished. I fail to see why adultery should be punished with anything. It is a personal matter between a husband and wife. I don't see why blasphemy should be punished with anything. Blasphemy is the expression of an opinion that hurts absolutely no one.
If you are going to try to convince me that Shariah law is better than our laws now, you are going to have to convince me that things like adultery, homosexuality, and blasphemy should be punished in the first place. Then we can discuss the severity of the punishment.
I also fail to see how "shariah law will make human life less inhumane, in comparison to a prison system." Remember that we have different conceptions of what is "inhumane." I believe that punishing adulteresses and homosexuals and blasphemers is inhumane.
Also, if immigration is any indication, people seem to think that Western-style justice is better than Muslim/shariah justice—at least judging from the millions of people who immigrate to the West from shariah-law countries. You don't see many people in the West flocking to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
I don't care that much about the severity of the punishments.
I DO care about what is being punished. I fail to see why adultery should be punished with anything. It is a personal matter between a husband and wife. I don't see why blasphemy should be punished with anything. Blasphemy is the expression of an opinion that hurts absolutely no one.
If you are going to try to convince me that Shariah law is better than our laws now, you are going to have to convince me that things like adultery, homosexuality, and blasphemy should be punished in the first place. Then we can discuss the severity of the punishment.
So far as I know, fornication is punishable by flogging, and adultery by stoning.
Fornication is punishable because it is a willful disobedience towards G-d, and a disgusting thing to do. There are meant to be limits on what people do, yet people today seem to think that being sexually active where people may find them is okay.
Its no wonder most of the people in this country (UK) are riddled with STIs or pregnant and on the dole.
The reason that Adultery is punished harshly is first (like fornication), because those laws were handed down by G-d, and by breaking the law, they have diobeyed G-d (someone correct me if Im wrong), and secondly, Adultery harms people. Its not just a matter between husband and wife, its a matter for their entire family, and their children, should they have any (come one, how many kids arent royally screwed over just because mummy or daddy couldnt control themselves and chose to do the dishonest thing!?). Its deceitful-a betrayal-and it destroys lives. How can someone who humiliates and hurts their loved ones just to gratify their sexual desires be looked favourably upon?
Last edited by Thanaa; 10-16-2007 at 01:48 PM.
A whisper of peace,
Moving through the land.
Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hands.
A word of hope will call to every woman and man.
A light until the end of time,
This is our Islam.
Shariah law is a bit difficult to understand for a Westerner. In simple terms it prescribes what the punishment for an offense can be, but it also gives very tight conditions under which the punishment is to be applied. For example while the death penalty is permitted for apostates (those who leave Islam) the conditions required for the death penalty to be implemented are so specific that the only time the death penalty would be justified under sharia law is if the person is committing an open act of treason against the country and not just simply changing religion.
Actually shariah law is a moot point as it can only be enforced in an Islamic nation and there are no Islamic nations in existance today. there are some countries using what they are calling Shariah law, but it is not true Shariah.
Shariah law is a bit difficult to understand for a Westerner. In simple terms it prescribes what the punishment for an offense can be, but it also gives very tight conditions under which the punishment is to be applied. For example while the death penalty is permitted for apostates (those who leave Islam) the conditions required for the death penalty to be implemented are so specific that the only time the death penalty would be justified under sharia law is if the person is committing an open act of treason against the country and not just simply changing religion.
Actually shariah law is a moot point as it can only be enforced in an Islamic nation and there are no Islamic nations in existance today. there are some countries using what they are calling Shariah law, but it is not true Shariah.
I should have mentioned that.
Isnt it true that for adultery there must be 4 witnesses to the act of penetration itself? I could be wrong.
What I want to know is how people think that the same could possibly apply to rape. I mean, most people who are raped are dragged out of sight.
A whisper of peace,
Moving through the land.
Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hands.
A word of hope will call to every woman and man.
A light until the end of time,
This is our Islam.
I don't care that much about the severity of the punishments.
I DO care about what is being punished. I fail to see why adultery should be punished with anything. It is a personal matter between a husband and wife. I don't see why blasphemy should be punished with anything. Blasphemy is the expression of an opinion that hurts absolutely no one.
If you are going to try to convince me that Shariah law is better than our laws now, you are going to have to convince me that things like adultery, homosexuality, and blasphemy should be punished in the first place. Then we can discuss the severity of the punishment.
Oh - I understand you fully well alright! I believe it is you who doesn't understand what you think you do.
Apparently, you have no idea of what is sacrilege. Apparently, you have been exposed very much to the standards of the world and what you seem to think is innocent mischief like adultery is no big deal.
My friend,
Everything boils down to respect of one's right over something.
for example, a husband is owned by his wife as a wife is to her husband. Would it be alright with you to share your wife to your best friend? ... or perhaps your worst enemy?.... how would you feel? moreover, would it be ok if your wife be sleeping with another man in your own house? with the knowledge of your children?
Blasphemy operates in the same principle. We are all children of Adam... and Adam is created by Allah.... therfore, we are all properties of Allah.... in that note, we have no right to desecrate (sorry for the wrong spellings) any of Allahs' property... if we do, then it is better for us to have our punishment in this earth, than have it in the afterlife.... because, a sin that goes unpunished will earn a bigger punishment later on. The same thing goes with a deed that goes unrewarded... will be rewarded bigger later on if not then the Rewards is multiplied in the afterlife.
Is we are not really aware that we are comitting a sin because we think these are just petty mischief... and if we are really ignorant or sincerely innocent about it... then we are not liable for it.... however, ignorance of these things will not excuse us on judgement day. Ignorance is not really bliss after all.
What you are weary about is why punish these crime to humanity with death?... actually, death is prescribed.... but, one can always repent if he doesnt want to die. But, if you only know the consequence of having a sin with such gravity - you will chose to be punished in this life. Self-punishment is not allowed by the way.
I am sure you will still FAIL TO SEE the wisdom of shariah. By the way, there is no country in the world that is really under shariah law.... Saudi is not even theocratic... it's a monarchy. If there is Shariah, you will not see a prison or jail... since there is no need for that... also, you will not find a Mental Insitution... and a Home for the Aged. These 3 institutions are ideas that came from the devil.... these institutions are seemingly and innocently disguised as good for humanity.... many people will FAIL to SEE this also why.
May you spend more quality time in reflection to whats really happening to humanity.... and if you can.... please read the Qur'an... find time to read it... all your questions will find their answers there. I guarantee that. Inshaallah.
La illaha illalah
45: Surah-al-Jahtiyah
verse 20: "This Qur'an is a Clear Proof and Evidence for Mankind and a Guidance and Mercy for a people who have faith with certainty.
I should have mentioned that.
Isnt it true that for adultery there must be 4 witnesses to the act of penetration itself? I could be wrong.
What I want to know is how people think that the same could possibly apply to rape. I mean, most people who are raped are dragged out of sight.
Nowadays we don't need witnesses - we can provide evidence - photos, list of phone calls, reservations etc - alll of which is more reliable than 4 witnesses. Does Sahriah law today still require witnesses or does evidence suffice to punish the wrongdoer?
Does it apply to rape accordind to the Shariah law?
also, you will not find a Mental Insitution... and a Home for the Aged. These 3 institutions are ideas that came from the devil.... these institutions are seemingly and innocently disguised as good for humanity.... many people will FAIL to SEE this also why.
I guess I'm one of them.
I know psychology wasn't a developed science or wasn't a science at all the time Quran was written, but that unfortunately doesn't mean that its findings are wrong. Mental diseases are real, they're as real as cancer, pneumonia or any other "normal" disease.
Some are socially acquired and some are genetic (in a way). the latter ones cannot really be prevented, so they have to be cured.
Many mental diseases, such as depression, can be cured with therapy, conversations, holidays etc, but some can't. And those just have to be treated medically and if that's not possible, the patients need to have a safe and positive enviroment - which mental isntitutions tend to provide. So we definitely need mental institutions, as humane as possible of course.
I think I know why you don't like homes for the aged...you probably think they they should be looked after by their children...Well, I definitely agree on that, but I am aware that that's rather unrealistic, at least in our society, the (capitalistic) west.
I guess I'm one of them.
I know psychology wasn't a developed science or wasn't a science at all the time Quran was written, but that unfortunately doesn't mean that its findings are wrong. Mental diseases are real, they're as real as cancer, pneumonia or any other "normal" disease.
Some are socially acquired and some are genetic (in a way). the latter ones cannot really be prevented, so they have to be cured.
Many mental diseases, such as depression, can be cured with therapy, conversations, holidays etc, but some can't. And those just have to be treated medically and if that's not possible, the patients need to have a safe and positive enviroment - which mental isntitutions tend to provide. So we definitely need mental institutions, as humane as possible of course.
I think I know why you don't like homes for the aged...you probably think they they should be looked after by their children...Well, I definitely agree on that, but I am aware that that's rather unrealistic, at least in our society, the (capitalistic) west.
Salaam to you....
During those biblical times or early days of Islam... in the early days generally speaking - before the dawn of the industrial revolution. there are not so much elements that will help or easily destroy or disrupt humanities mental health. Thus, the need to have Psychiatry or Psychology has not come. Necessity is the mother of invention... thus - anything existing nowadays whether a concrete or abstract entity in this case - the science of Psychology and Psychiatry can be considered Mans' invention to address a growing problem.
How does Satan work? by with influencing man through his mind? .... by whispering suggestions into our minds. It was difficult for satan to make us mad in the early days... nowadays it's easier for satan - he uses media, TV, magazines, CD,DVD, presidents, writers, journalists, movie producers, etc.
How do you know if a person isinfluenced by Satan?.... when hi is afflicted by anxiety, stress, skitzo (I don't know the spelling sorry)... and many more - work related, social - related neurosis..., Anger is in fact - temporary insanity.
These are all symptoms... they care not the causes. If you would tour an indegenuous tribe somewhere in the deep forests of some Asian country... and find a tribe who doesn't have television, radio or newspaper... you will find they don't have this social disease of what we may call neurosis in general.
If the causes or medium is not present... then the causes or symptoms will also be absent, therefore - there will be no use for cure. Prevention is still better than cure.
The western capitalistic world is designed to have these institutions in the first place simply because it has the objective of having full control of each and every citizen.
Therefore, in fact, when the Ottoman empire declined - these institutions were immediately placed on the Muslim states in order to control the Islamic combatants and suppress any possible uprising.
In Capitalistic world... particularly America... work or career is on top of the heirarchy of the citizens value system. In an ideal community... God is placed 1st priority and then Mother is second and then the rest of the Family, Work will never get in the way and work will never play a more important value if it will destroy the family bond.
A Man who will have a weak family roots will be a great asset for the government... this is the reason why CIA is strong... because it is a family within itself. composed of people who mostly have no families who will cry if they die. .
A Caring mother is the best foundation any child can have... and a legitimate Father around the house - the child will grow to have a strong mental and psychological foundation. This is the reason why adultery is bad - simply because Islam does not prescribe Muslims to be making *******s.
A happy childhood and a healthy family life will always lead to a good future.... If every family institution is like that - then the State will be more peaceful... and empowerment is more on the people.
But - if the State wants more power in the seat of Government... then keep the people busy with free enterprise and corporate competition... keep them busy to be even thinking about their own souls... keep them busy by making residential houses far from their business or work.
Make people spend half of their live driving or commuting... then, also by keeping them glued to TV.... and keep putting rubbish in their minds... this way - State will have more control over them.
whew.... sorry for the lengthy reply.... this is a really broad thing and I cannot fully place it here due to size of the issue. I hope some light is shed as well.
:sunny:
La illaha illalah
45: Surah-al-Jahtiyah
verse 20: "This Qur'an is a Clear Proof and Evidence for Mankind and a Guidance and Mercy for a people who have faith with certainty.
During those biblical times or early days of Islam... in the early days generally speaking - before the dawn of the industrial revolution. there are not so much elements that will help or easily destroy or disrupt humanities mental health. Thus, the need to have Psychiatry or Psychology has not come. Necessity is the mother of invention... thus - anything existing nowadays whether a concrete or abstract entity in this case - the science of Psychology and Psychiatry can be considered Mans' invention to address a growing problem.
Right...so there were no people with mental illness before the 19th century? Are you kidding?
for example, a husband is owned by his wife as a wife is to her husband. Would it be alright with you to share your wife to your best friend? ... or perhaps your worst enemy?.... how would you feel? moreover, would it be ok if your wife be sleeping with another man in your own house? with the knowledge of your children?
I don't think he was saying that adultery wasn't a big deal (as it can cause a lot of pain), but that it shouldn't be defined by society as a crime. It should be dealt with between the participants and those affected.
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
Blasphemy operates in the same principle. We are all children of Adam... and Adam is created by Allah.... therfore, we are all properties of Allah.... in that note, we have no right to desecrate (sorry for the wrong spellings) any of Allahs' property... if we do, then it is better for us to have our punishment in this earth, than have it in the afterlife.... because, a sin that goes unpunished will earn a bigger punishment later on. The same thing goes with a deed that goes unrewarded... will be rewarded bigger later on if not then the Rewards is multiplied in the afterlife.
I think here, as he doesn't believe God exists I think, he is saying punishing someone for blasphemy is pointless and unnecessary. So if he is right, the punishment is proscribed for no reason.
Yet the same people, when any member of their family is murdered, raped or kidnapped, would cry out: “Bring back the death penalty! Let’s have some law and order!”
In those situations humans aren't capable of thinking objectively.
Salaam to you....
During those biblical times or early days of Islam... in the early days generally speaking - before the dawn of the industrial revolution. there are not so much elements that will help or easily destroy or disrupt humanities mental health. Thus, the need to have Psychiatry or Psychology has not come. Necessity is the mother of invention... thus - anything existing nowadays whether a concrete or abstract entity in this case - the science of Psychology and Psychiatry can be considered Mans' invention to address a growing problem.
I can agree there were less mental distractions that time at least as we see them today. There might have been other factors causing mental ilnesses back then. I am positive there were.
And as I said, not all mental ilnesses are caused by the enviroment. Some are inherited, some are caused by a genetic mutation, some are a result of an actual physical disease etc. It's mostly these people who need to go to a mental institution, not the dperessed and nervous ones.
Yeah, necessity is the mother of progress but it cannot do miracles. "Normal" diseases, as you probabably call them, have acompanied the human race since its very beginnings. There apparently had ben a great need of drugs, yet no one actually invented them. How is that? Progress doesn't make giant leaps. We cannot produce digestive drugs if we do not have knowledge of human digestion, chemistry etc. These things take time.
In case of mental illnesses it doesn't only take time but also a change in mentality. In the past it was ridicoulus to think the soul, a God-given immaterial object etc, could be cured...
How does Satan work? by with influencing man through his mind? .... by whispering suggestions into our minds. It was difficult for satan to make us mad in the early days... nowadays it's easier for satan - he uses media, TV, magazines, CD,DVD, presidents, writers, journalists, movie producers, etc.
How do you know if a person isinfluenced by Satan?.... when hi is afflicted by anxiety, stress, skitzo (I don't know the spelling sorry)... and many more - work related, social - related neurosis..., Anger is in fact - temporary insanity.
Are you saying mental ilnesses are caused by Satan? It seems we're very widely apart. In my opinion they're mostly caused by overwork, social pressures and bad timing.
Peace, brother. I know your thinking is different than mine, I know your religion sees things differently...I'm not here to change your beliefs.
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Crime and Punishment
That's exactly the idea!!! - if a punishment is not severe.... and if it doesn't really bother you... that means us... then - why bother being afraid of committing sins like .... fornication or adultery?... in fact - the bible suggests that the wrath of the jealous husband is worst and one should really avoid it." - In the Netherlands - people would commit a petty crime just to be jailed. Why? - because they have a good bed, good heater, pool tables, television and beer inside the jail". In other poorer countries - sin or criminality is poverty driven... without a shariah form of law whatsoever will only make human life more inhuman with the prison or jailing system. Reflect on it.:sunny:
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