I posted this on another thread, but it didn't really belong. So I decided to make a new thread. I think this is a serious issue. It disturbs me how people brush off certain practices as not being torture, simply because their home countries do not define certain acts as torture.
To me, that's like saying, 'Well, in Chinese and Pakistani law, none of that malpractice by the authorities is forbidden, therefore it's perfectly fine! Besides, the Hutts on Tatooine do far worse to their prisoners, so that completely purges the Chinese and Pakistani authorities of any wrongdoing!'
Note - the above is not meant to start a discussion on China or Pakistan, it's just by way of example.
Anyway:
torture
• noun 1 the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion. 2 great suffering or anxiety.
• verb subject to torture.
— DERIVATIVES torturer noun.
— ORIGIN Latin tortura ‘twisting, torment’, from torquere ‘to twist’.
If merely dripping water on someone's head constitutes torture, I fail to see how pouring water over their face such that they are forced to inhale it does not.
Most people would not consider dripping water on somebody's head to be torture, but of course anything can be considered torture if it something that truly disturbs somebody.
Say John Doe doesn't like spiders. During the interrogation you could dump a bucket of harmless but ugly spiders all over him. Is that torture? To John Doe I'm sure it is.
I think the problem is that in many people's minds, torture consists of beatings, cutting, breaking, or otherwise inflicting physical pain and damage on an individual. When you get into the territory of "dripping water is torture", it becomes something that nobody can define. Can you raise your voice if it makes them uncomfortable? How about making Khalid Sheik Muhammed listen to rock music until he broke down...is that torture?
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
think of the torturers...would they really do anything to make thier prisoners feel comfortable, safe and happy? sometimes the most simplest of things...i.e. the dripping water, are enough to drive somebody mad.
Torture can not be defined by naming specific acts. What is physically torturous to one may not even cause discomfort to another person. While to that very same person something that appears to be very benign can be an unbearable torture.
Now it is true that some specific acts, considered torture need to be outlawed. Perhaps it can also be true, that some acts not considered torture need to be outlawed.
Torture can not be defined by naming specific acts. What is physically torturous to one may not even cause discomfort to another person. While to that very same person something that appears to be very benign can be an unbearable torture.
Now it is true that some specific acts, considered torture need to be outlawed. Perhaps it can also be true, that some acts not considered torture need to be outlawed.
yeas specific acts need to be outlawed...but what I dont understand is...why do they have the right to do anything to the prisoners? Even something as insignificant as the dripping water? they may not see it as torture...so why the need to do it in the first place?
It is called interrogation. Believe it or not, some people will not give up information after a nice and logical conversation. Now, I do not think outright torture is warranted in most situations, mainly because it doesn't produce reliable info in most cases, but various forms of coercive interrogation are often necessary.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
It is called interrogation. Believe it or not, some people will not give up information after a nice and logical conversation. Now, I do not think outright torture is warranted in most situations, mainly because it doesn't produce reliable info in most cases, but various forms of coercive interrogation are often necessary.
And do you really think a truthful and coherent 'confession' will be drawn out in that way? With torture?
If merely dripping water on someone's head constitutes torture, I fail to see how pouring water over their face such that they are forced to inhale it does not.
The chinese water torture inflicts it's pain by the steady incessent dripping on one spot. Tap yourself on the forehead for a hour: no problem. Do it for a week- Your in agony.
The Gitmo officers threw a cup of water over the prisoners if they refused to drink it.
It's not in the same league. It inflicts about as much pain as beating someone with a Toothbrush.
Now throwing petrol on someone and setting them alight or attaching Battryys to testicals. Thats more like torture. (A-la Iran.)
One day we may see a Saudi Prison gaurd go up in court for their beating with rubber hoses and chains. A bit like PFC Linsey Edwards rightfully went through the justice system for her inhumane treatment, we shall no doubt see a flood of Iranian, Indonesian and Saudi gaurds having the same justice meted out by their respective regimes.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
It seems to me "waterboarding" is torture. It seems likely, though it remains unconfirmed, that this method was used by the CIA (probaly either in Pakistan or in undisclosed European locations) to interrogate the big bosses (like Khaled Sheik Muhammed). I have seen no evidence that waterbaording was used at G'itmo.
The Congress got involved, through its oversight responsibility, and partly to score domestic political points and partly out of genuine concern has since banned the practice. Of course, the US Government isn't going to publicly say exactly where the limit of allowed interrogation techniques is because uncertainty on the part of the "guest" might be useful.
Leaving a light on in a prsioners cell, or varying sleep schedule or making him take a shower once a week is not torture. Having a female interrogator is not torture either. That is more akin to a lack of cultural awareness on the part of the prisoner.
Abu Ghraib was a national embarrassment because of the foolish and immoral and sadistic and purposefully degrading behavior. Soldiers have been convicted and sent to jail. The General in charge of Abu Ghraib at the time (a woman, believe it or not) was kicked out of the military.
Of course, I don't really expect some of the same people who believe the Jews were responsible for 9-11 to believe the Red Cross inspections of G'itmo or the US Congress or the GAO or the DOD. G'itmo will probably be closed for geopolitical resons so be careful what you ask for. Good luck trying to find out what happened to the repatriated Saudis or Yemenis or Pakistanis once they are back in "friendly" hands.
BTW, perhaps the person who suggested the granting of asylum by a 3rd, "friendly" country to the reamining detainees at G'itmo who, for some odd reason, don't want to go back to their homeland, will nominate such a place. I am curious.
Lastly, perhaps someone will open another thread to discuss the treatment of American prisoners in AQ custody...oh..wait...never mind.
It is called interrogation. Believe it or not, some people will not give up information after a nice and logical conversation. Now, I do not think outright torture is warranted in most situations, mainly because it doesn't produce reliable info in most cases, but various forms of coercive interrogation are often necessary.
you and the wrong person alone in a room together with a razor blade and soon enough even you'd name yourself a secret al-qaeda terrorist or report those you knew as such.
but i shouldn't be complaining...as Bilal bin rabah radianhu...experienced worst than me.
25:36 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.
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think of the torturers...would they really do anything to make thier prisoners feel comfortable, safe and happy? sometimes the most simplest of things...i.e. the dripping water, are enough to drive somebody mad.
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