I have read some of your referenced writings and will happily engage you on this topic. Let us simply agree to be polite.
I agree with you that Islam does not endorse the Bible. However, the Qur’an appears to endorse the Bible. I say “appears to” because it mentions several books of the Bible.
OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?
If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?
If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
Regards,
Grenville
Snakelegs is absolutely correct.
We believe in the ORIGINAL scripture sent to previous Prophets. We do not believe they are the same as what you have today. Of course, mixed in with what is now "the bible" are some remainders or traces of the original scripture, but we only accept that which agrees with the Qur'an.
Peace,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?
If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.
Regards,
Grenville
Peace, blessing and Mercy be upon those who follow guidance and the straight path,
We believe that Allah sent these books, But we also believe that currently only the Qur'an contains the infalliable (spellin'?) words of Allah,
Tk.
"Whoever lives amongst you will see much differing, so adhere to my Sunnah" Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه و سلم)
That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:
1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.
2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.
Regards,
Grenville
Last edited by Walter; 02-08-2008 at 10:14 PM.
Reason: I added Happy to my greeting
That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:
1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.
2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.
Regards,
Grenville
This vicar in the church of England right.., told one of my teachers right.. that the corruption of the bible and where the bible has been corrupted is written in this book which contains the history of the church..
But I never did find out where this mystery book was,
By the way, A few errors can make a big difference bruv,
Tk.
"Whoever lives amongst you will see much differing, so adhere to my Sunnah" Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه و سلم)
That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:
1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.
2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.
Regards,
Grenville
lol what you mean is that this is the typical Christian claim and typical response when we do respond lol
Are you kidding me?? There is no evidence the Bible has been corrupted?? There are many verses in the bible that were never found in the oldest manuscripts. These are NOT simply copyist errors, they are blatant additions to verses....verses miraculously appear where they never existed. This was very common practice between the Jewish and Christian scribes and is well known and accepted by the vast majority of theological scholars. They have also been removed from the modern day translations in an attempt to bring the books closer to the original manuscripts (which they don't have!)
Now, they have found MANY added/deleted verses, so, would you like to guess as to how many they have yet to find?? Errors in the Bible, "the word of God", means they are NOT the words of God and considering there are NO original manuscripts, there is no way to go back to see exactly how many times they were changed over the centuries. The council of Nicea sure made lots of changes and additions....and that was only ONE council....there were many others and it was also 325 years AFTER the life of Jesus.
LOL care to back up your statement that Muhammed deemed the bible accurate? Show us the proof, not your lip service. And, I sincerely advice you to stay away from hate sites in your attempt. I would also like to have you tell me when the first Arabic bible was printed, and I guarantee you...it wasn't during the life time of Muhammed, pbuh. I also guarantee you that Muslims NEVER believed the collections of stories in the "bible" were God's word.
You may also want to search the form as this ridiculous claim has been refuted many times.
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
Are you kidding me?? There is no evidence the Bible has been corrupted?? There are many verses in the bible that were never found in the oldest manuscripts.
There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.
Yes. And no. There is no confirmation either way that the Bible has been 'corrupted' in terms of significant doctrinal content but the second two sentences in that paragraph are nonsense. The copying was probably no less accurate than that of any other ancient works but every significant early copy and manuscript we have are different. The vast majority of those differences are trivial (case endings, etc) but even the 'minority' figure of different words, missed sentences, etc. is huge.
However... the fact is that in the case of the NT that most of those errors - and certainly most of the significant errors would have occurred during the early spread of Christianity, i.e before the Qur'an was written (or revealed, depending on your point of view). In the case of the Jewish Bible it would have been rather earlier. In which case,
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Exactly which "scripture which He sent to those before" were early muslims supposed to 'believe' in?! The idea that this Biblical 'corruption' only set in after Mohammed is absurd. The only versions at that time would have have nearly as 'corrupt' as those that came later, and nobody would have any way of telling which was 'right' even in the unlikely event there was more than one copy available.
God said "My words shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31) and "thou shalt preserve them (God's words) from this generation for ever" (Psalm 12:7).
Verses that have been removed:
Matt 12:47, Matt 17:21, Matt 18:11, Matt 21:44, Matt 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Mark 16:9-20, Luke 17:36, Luke 22:43, Luke 22:44, Luke 23:17, Luke 24:12, Luke 24:40, John 5:4, John 7:53 - 8:11, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Rom. 16:24, 2 Cor. 13:14, James 1:8
Then there are the 300 verses that have been changed. (I doubt I've listed all 300 here...but this should suffice)
God said "My words shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31) and "thou shalt preserve them (God's words) from this generation for ever" (Psalm 12:7).
Verses that have been removed:
Matt 12:47, Matt 17:21, Matt 18:11, Matt 21:44, Matt 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Mark 16:9-20, Luke 17:36, Luke 22:43, Luke 22:44, Luke 23:17, Luke 24:12, Luke 24:40, John 5:4, John 7:53 - 8:11, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Rom. 16:24, 2 Cor. 13:14, James 1:8
Then there are the 300 verses that have been changed. (I doubt I've listed all 300 here...but this should suffice)
I would like to point out something incredibly important.
The Quran refers to the books sent to previous Prophets, specifically the Torah (to the followers of Moses) and Injeel (to the follower of Jesus).
Contrary to popular belief, the bible (New Testament) is not the Injeel!
The NT is a collection of works written by many different men, none of it was written by God (some Christians believe it was inspired by God but that it was still authored by those men, not Jesus. Muslims reject that anyone other than a Prophet can claim to be inspired by God in such a way).
Therefore when the Quran says that the Injeel was corrupted there is no point talking about the corruption of the NT because the Quran is not referring to the NT.
That being said, it is still possible that parts of the Injeel were quoted in the Bible, however we do not know if this is the case or not.
As for the Torah, that is a different story because as far as I understand it is believed that the first for chapters (or books?) of the OT was actually written by God and given to Moses who passed it on to his followers. Whether that is the case or not, Allah knows best.
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