"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not."
thanks and i know now its in the quran sorry my bad
There are three types of Kuffar: 1- Dhimmis (people of the book) who live in an islamic state with restricted rights. 2 - Harbis, these are the enemies of islam. and they have no rights! 3 - Mustamins, people who get temporally a contract being like Dhimmis
There are also "people of the book" who do NOT live in an Islamic state. Why didn't you mention them as being kafir? Why only mention those who live in an Islamic state?
From my personal experience If I love and have deep respect for someone I would want to be like them.
Your attitude is one which leads to wars and bloodshed. When will Muslims learn that there is no compulsion in Islam and that Muslims can have good relations with disbelievers, as long as they don't fight us?
If you accept him as a messanger of Allah you must also be obedient. If you just aknowledge that he's a messanger I don't think is enough. I could be wrong.
If you believe in Allah and accept Muhammad as a messenger you are a Muslim (even if you never pray or fast etc.) There are no ifs or buts.
format_quote Originally Posted by Rasema
Brother, correct me if I am wrong.
If a person rejects one verse of the Qur'an is a kafir,correct.
I have read it by a scholar that it falls under kufr.
There are many Muslims today who "prefer" hadiths over the Quran, even if those hadiths clearly contradict the Quran. I guess that makes them kafirs as well? In the end it's not up to us to label people kafir. There are sunnis who call shias kafir, for example. It's very wrong when all of us start calling each other kafir.
Last edited by Argamemnon; 08-22-2009 at 06:05 AM.
Your attitude is one which leads to wars and bloodshed. When will Muslims learn that there is no compulsion in Islam and that Muslims can have good relations with disbelievers, as long as they don't fight us?
But ,you can't take them as friends, you better agree to this.
I haven't called no Muslim a kafir.
In order to be a complete Muslim you must accept all hadeeths and all verses of the Qur'an. If not, than your shahadat is not complete. Every snunni scholar will agree to this.
I don't see what does,what I said, lead to compultion in religion.
[QUOTE=Argamemnon;1207169]If you believe in Allah and accept Muhammad as a messenger you are a Muslim (even if you never pray or fast etc.) There are no ifs or buts.
Once you accept Muhammad,saws,as a messanger you accept everything he says. That is shahadat. So, there are many sects that accept Muhammad as a messanger but reject many verses of the Qur'an and reject many things he had said.
I don't mean that they have to pray and fast to be Muslims but they have to accept everything from the Qur'an and the hadeeths,that is shahadat.
There are many Muslims today who "prefer" hadiths over the Quran, even if those hadiths clearly contradict the Quran. I guess that makes them kafirs as well? In the end it's not up to us to label people kafir. There are sunnis who call shias kafir, for example. It's very wrong when all of us start calling each other kafir.[/QUOTE]
Hadeeths do not contradict the Qur'an. Aldough I can't prove my claim, I know that it takes a scholar to make claims such as your's. It could be that you're one of those who interpreat things themselves.
Give me one fatwa where a scholar says what you did.If you can't than,brother,for your own good, don't speek of what you know not.
I request any moderator to close this thread & others ( not related to Ramadan ) temporarily ; so that Muslims can avoid the arguments and can concentrate more on prayers and threads related to blessed Ramadan only.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
But ,you can't take them as friends, you better agree to this.
Yes, you cannot accept them as true friends, this is clearly mentioned in the Quran. However, as long as they don't attack you (and have no intention to), you too have to treat them well. Creating a hostile and intolerant environment would not benefit anyone.
In order to be a complete Muslim you must accept all hadeeths and all verses of the Qur'an. If not, than your shahadat is not complete. Every snunni scholar will agree to this.
Not all hadiths, I think you meant the sahih ones.
Last edited by Argamemnon; 08-22-2009 at 07:16 PM.
Hadeeths do not contradict the Qur'an. Aldough I can't prove my claim, I know that it takes a scholar to make claims such as your's. It could be that you're one of those who interpreat things themselves.
Give me one fatwa where a scholar says what you did.If you can't than,brother,for your own good, don't speek of what you know not.
No, I don't claim anything. I have books of reputable Islamic scholars. A very famous and knowledgeable Turkish Islamic scholar who has dedicated his life to Islam says that even Bukhari's works can't be accepted as "infallible", and that all hadiths must be filtered by carefully comparing them to the Quran. There are actually many other scholars throughout the world who hold the same view.
No, I don't claim anything. I have books of reputable Islamic scholars. A very famous and knowledgeable Turkish Islamic scholar who has dedicated his life to Islam says that even Bukhari's works can't be accepted as "infallible", and that all hadiths must be filtered by carefully comparing them to the Quran. There are actually many other scholars throughout the world who hold the same view.
excellent post.. there are different levels of kufr, just like there are different forms of shirk..
many Muslims commit at times what we call shirk asghar .. when they say for instance 'sydna mursai abu il3abas' a founder of some town in Alexandria, or ya Ali or ya Hussain, to call upon any other than Allah.. also there are certain bida3 that go into the category of shirk.. talisamans and what nots...
same for kuffr, I imagine the ultimate kufr is atheism but certainly you can have that in Judaism, christianity, hinduism, etc
and Allah swt knows best
Given Islamic beliefs, I certainly understand why you would label those in other religions kuffr. But as you said that there are many levels of shirk, some committed by Muslims, would there be a case when a person who is Muslim by birth and culture, but not personal practice might also be considered kuffr? Or what do you call a person who accepts self-identifies with the label Muslim because they have never known anything else, but who in daily life lives just as do those who have no religion whatsoever? For example, he's make a great pretence at being at the big family feast at the end of Ramadan, but himself ate and drank (included all non-halal food and spirits) throughout the month, never fasting nor praying nor even giving thought to anything than the annual family gathering at the end of the month? Is there a name for this sort of "Muslim"?
Would he be viewed any more positively than a devout and practicing Christian or Jew? Why or why not?
Given Islamic beliefs, I certainly understand why you would label those in other religions kuffr. But as you said that there are many levels of shirk, some committed by Muslims, would there be a case when a person who is Muslim by birth and culture, but not personal practice might also be considered kuffr? Or what do you call a person who accepts self-identifies with the label Muslim because they have never known anything else, but who in daily life lives just as do those who have no religion whatsoever? For example, he's make a great pretence at being at the big family feast at the end of Ramadan, but himself ate and drank (included all non-halal food and spirits) throughout the month, never fasting nor praying nor even giving thought to anything than the annual family gathering at the end of the month? Is there a name for this sort of "Muslim"?
That person is a hypocrite. Islam, surrender to God, requires action on the part of the individual. You cannot expect to fool Allah with pretenses.
Would he be viewed any more positively than a devout and practicing Christian or Jew? Why or why not?
That is up to Allah who knows every detail of their lives. We cannot give an answer for sure because only He deals out perfect justice.
Hypocrite. Yeah, that's probably an accurate word. They exist in all religions don't they? Is there a special name for this type of hypocrite in Islam, or is that label itself sufficient?
Of course, since he really never was asked to say the Shahadd, and was just assumed to be Muslim because he was raised that way, maybe he isn't a hypocrit, but just your typical secular atheist??
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
That is up to Allah who knows every detail of their lives. We cannot give an answer for sure because only He deals out perfect justice.
Yes, of course the ultimate salvation of every person is up to Allah. Only Allah can answer for any of us. We can't even answer that question for ourselves, we only have hope in what Allah himself decides. But I've noticed we still have opinions on the subject. So, do you have an opinion in this case? In your personal eyes, would he be viewed any more positively than a devout and practicing Christian or Jew? Why or why not?
If out of ignorance , they are doing this , other Muslims must teach them about the basics/ principles of Islam . If out of arrogance , they reject / refuse to offer salat , fasting etc , they are called as Murtad /apostate- no more a Muslim .
If they don't offer sincere repentance and utter the Shahada , scholars differ about the punishment .
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Hypocrite. Yeah, that's probably an accurate word. They exist in all religions don't they? Is there a special name for this type of hypocrite in Islam, or is that label itself sufficient?
Not sure. Someone more knowledgeable than me can answer that.
Of course, since he really never was asked to say the Shahadd, and was just assumed to be Muslim because he was raised that way, maybe he isn't a hypocrit, but just your typical secular atheist??
It depends. I don't have any information about this theoretical person other than a few sentences by you.
Yes, of course the ultimate salvation of every person is up to Allah. Only Allah can answer for any of us. We can't even answer that question for ourselves, we only have hope in what Allah himself decides. But I've noticed we still have opinions on the subject. So, do you have an opinion in this case? In your personal eyes, would he be viewed any more positively than a devout and practicing Christian or Jew? Why or why not?
There is a difference between the theoretical and actual. Theoretically, person A is better than person B. But in reality, there are many variables that we don't know or haven't considered. Our theoretical relationship still holds true, abeit with interference from many other variables that make it impossible for you, as a human, to give judgment.
There's nothing wrong with having hope in what Allah decides and keeping his warning against becoming certain types of people in mind.
As for your last question, I don't know. I'll leave the answer to someone who has more knowlege. But keep in mind, your question is vague. For example, has the devout Jew or Christian heard of Islam and understood it but refused to follow it? Or did he never hear about it? See? A simple fact that you didn't mention changes the whole dynamic.
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