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Saints in Islam?

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    Saints in Islam? (OP)


    assalam alaykum

    Im confused. Are there really such things as "saints" in Islam? I was reading about a place in Alexandria, Egypt where a saint is buried underneath a mosque there. (at least I think it's under a mosque). Anyways, I also watched a program about Iran last week and they showed a lot of people going to various sites there where saints are buried and kissing the tombs, etc.

    What's up with that? One of the things that attracted me to Islam was the fact that they don't have statues and like a million saints, etc. to pray to like I did when I was Catholic. The simplicity of praying to one God, Allah was the main draw for me so when I see stuff like this it is depressing and confusing.

    help.

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

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    From Ibn Taymiyyah's 'The Criterion...':
    Among these people also are those to whom the shaitaan brings foods, fruits and sweets which are not found in the area of the person. Others are flown by their jinn to Makka or to Jerusalem or other places. Some of them are carried to Arafat on the day of standing at Arafat in the Hajj, and are returned the same night. He has not made a legal Islamic Hajj. He goes in his ordinary clothes, does not enter Ihram when passing the point of doing so, does not pronounce the "Labbaik" of the Hajj, does not stand at Muzdalifa, does not perform Tawwaf (circumambulation) of the Ka'ba at Makka, does not run between Safa and Marwa, and does not throw the stones at the boulders symbolizing the devil. No, he just goes to Arafat in his ordinary clothes, and comes back the same night. This is not a valid Hajj in the consensus of all of the Muslims. It is like one who comes to the Friday prayer and prayers without ablutions to other than the direction of prayer. One of these people who were carried to Arafat on the day of standing saw angels in his sleep after his return recording the reward of the pilgrims. He asked them: Aren't you going to record me? To which they answered: You are not one of the pilgrims. i.e. You did not perform a legal Islamic Hajj.

    There are many differences between the karamaat with which Allah honors His allies, and the satanic states which seemingly resemble them. For example, the karamaat of the allies of Allah are a result of faith and pious practice, while the satanic states are a result of that which Allah and His Prophet have interdicted. Allah said:
    [Say: That which my Lord has forbidden is none other that despicable acts - both apparent nd hidden - sin, transgression with no justification, to associate as partners with Allah that for which He has sent no authority, and to say about Allah that which you do not know.] Qur'an 7/33
    Thus speaking about Allah without knowledge, associationism, oppression, and all despicable acts have been forbidden by Allah ta'ala, and His Prophet (sas). They can never, therefore, be a cause or reason for the honor bestowed by Allah on His allies in the form of karamaat. If any seemingly miraculous feat does not come about via prayer, remembrance of Allah, and reading of the Qur'an, but is brought about by that which is loved by shaitaan, and by those things in which there is shirk (associationism) such as seeking the aid or succor of created beings, or is something sought for the purpose of oppressing others or committing sins, all of these are satanic states, and are not of the karamaat of Ar-Rahman!

    Some of them, when they attend the sessions of whistling and beating sounds (music) are descended upon by their shaitaan, and carried through the air right out of the house. If one of the true allies of Allah comes on the scene, the shaitaan is repulsed, and the man falls to the ground as has happened on more than one occasion.

    Others seek the succor of created beings - either living or dead - and irregardless of whether the one whose aid is sought is a Muslim, a Christian, or a Pagan. Shaitaan then comes to them in the form of the one whose aid was sought, and helps him out with some of his needs. The man then thinks that the one who he called indeed came to him, or that an angel came to him in the form of the one called. In reality, it is none other than shaitaan, who has succeeded in leading him astray by getting him to commit blatant shirk by calling to other than Allah for aid, just as shaitaan used to enter into the idols of Makka, and speak to the idol-worshippers. Sometimes, shaitaan appears to them in human form and says that he is Al-Khidhr. He then informs him of some of the unseen things, and helps him with some of his needs. Another satanic trick which has been witnessed by many Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others among the disbelievers in the lands of the East and the West is that when one of them dies, shaitaan comes to them after his death in his form and his face, and so they believe that it is that person (i.e. his "ghost"). This jinn then may pay off some of the dead man's debts, return his trusts, do various other things related to the dead man, and enter into his wife, and leave. They may have burned the body of the dead man, as the disbelievers of India do, and so imagine that he lives after his death. One of these who are fooled by shaitaan was an old man in Egypt. He left a will to his servant not to let anyone wash his body, telling him that he would come himself after his death to wash his own body. When he died, his servant saw someone come in the form of the man, and believed that it was him and that he washed his own body! When the one who had come had finished the body washing, he vanished without a trace. That was a shaitaan he had succeeded in leading the one who had died astray by telling him that he would come to wash himself and not to allow anyone to wash his body. When he died, this shaitaan came in his form in order to lead others astray as he had already led the dead man astray.

    Some have seen a throne in the air above which there is a light and a voice which addresses them saying: I am your Lord. If they are people of knowledge, they recognize this as shaitaan, castigate him, seek refuge in Allah from him, and the whole vision and the voice disappear.

    Others see humans while they are wide awake, and they claim to be prophets or righteous men or "shaikhs". This has happened to many people. Some have seen this when visiting the grave of that person - they see the grave split open, and this image comes out of it to them, and they believe it to be the dead man. It is nothing but a jinn which has assumed the form of the dead man. Others have seen a horseman coming out of the grave or entering it. That, too, is nothing but a shaitaan. Anyone who says that they have seen a prophet with his eyes saw nothing but his own imagination.

    Some of them see in their sleep a great man such as Abu Bakr or others come to them and shave their head, or cut short their hair, or dress them in a hat or a robe. Then, when they wake up, they find their hair shaven or shortened, or that hat or coat which they dreamed on them. It was a jinn who came and did these things, and this is one of the satanic states which occur to those who have deviated from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They are of different levels (of deviation), just as the jinn which become attached to them and are of their type and their school of belief are. Some of the jinn are disbelievers (kuffar), some corrupt sinners (faasiq), and others are simply mistaken in their actions (mukhti'). If the human is a disbeliever or a sinner, or ignorant, the jinn will join him in his disbelief or sin or going astray. They may help him when he agrees with them in the kufr which they have chosen such as swearing in the name of those jinn which they view as great (thereby associating them with Allah), or writing the names of Allah or His words with filthy materials, or inverting the opening chapter of the Qur'an or the sura of Ikhlaas, or Ayat-ul-Kursiy or other parts of the Qur'an, and then write them with filth. Then the jinn will carry him on water, or through the air because of that kufr which has pleased him. What's more, they may come to him with women or young boys which they desire, either through the air, or by driving them to him. There are many such examples which would take too long to enumerate. Belief in such things is belief in Al-jabt and At-Taaghoot which has been mentioned in the Qur'an (4:51). Al-Jabt is sorcery, and At-Taaghoot is devils and idols. If a man is in obedience to Allah and His Prophet, they (i.e. the evil jinn) will not be able to join him in that, nor to make peace with him.

    This is why the prescribed worship of the Muslims is in the mosques, which are the houses of Allah. Those who frequent the mosques most are the farthest of the creation from the satanic states. On the other hand, the people of associationism and innovation (bid'a) sanctify graves and tombs of the dead. They pray to the dead (saints, etc.) or they pray (to Allah, but) in his name, or they hold the conviction that any du'a made in the presence of his grave is answered. Such are much closer to the satanic states, the Prophet said in a hadith reported by both Muslim and Bukhari:
    "Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians, they took the graves of their prophets as places of prayer (masajid)."
    And, in the collection of Muslim, it is recorded that the Prophet (sas) said just a few nights before his death:
    "The most generous of people with me with his companionship and that which he possesses is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a beloved friend from the people of this world, I would take Abu Bakr as my beloved friend, but I am the beloved friend of Allah. Let there not remain any small opening into the masjid without being sealed up except for that of Abu Bakr. Verily those who came before you take their graves as places of worship. Take note! Do not take graves as places of worship, verily, I forbid you that."
    In Muslim and Bukhari it is reported that the Prophet during his terminal illness was told by his companions of a church in Ethiopia, its beautiful architecture and its statuary. The Prophet said:
    "Those people, whenever a righteous man among dies build a place of worship over his grave, and carved for it those statues. They are the most evil of Allah's creation before Allah on the day of Qiyama."
    In the collection of Ahmad and Ibn Hibban, it is reported that the Prophet (sas) said:
    "Verily among the most evil of Allah's creation are those to whom Qiyama comes while they are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship."
    And, in another sahih hadith, the Prophet (sas) said:
    "Do not sit on graves, nor pray toward them."
    In the collection of Malik, the Prophet is recorded as having said:
    "O, Allah, do not let my grave become an idol after I am gone which is worshipped. The anger of Allah is intense at a people who take the graves of their prophets as places of worship."
    In the books of As-Sunan, it is recorded that the Prophet said:
    "Do not take my grave as a special place (to which you exert yourselves to come from near and far), and ask Allah's prayers upon me wherever you are for, verily, your prayers reach me."

    "No one gives salaam to me but that Allah returns my soul to me until I can return his greeting."

    "Verily, Allah has assigned angels to my grave who deliver to me the greetings of my nation."

    "Be prolific in asking Allah's prayers upon me on Friday, and the night before Friday, for your prayers are shown to me. They said: O, Messenger of Allah, how are our prayers shown to you when you have decomposed in the earth? The Prophet said: Verily Allah has forbidden the earth to consume the meat of the prophets."
    Allah said in His book about the associationist people of Nuh:
    [They said: Do not forsake your gods, do not forsake Wadd, Suwaa', Yaghooth, Ya'ooq, and Nasr.] Qur'an 71/23
    Ibn Abbas and others of the first generations reported about this verse:
    "These "gods" (mentioned in the verse) were a righteous people among the people of Nuh. When they died, the people were devoted to their graves. Later, they made images of them and worshipped them. This was the beginning of idol worship."
    Thus, the Prophet forbade the taking of graves as places of worship to block the way which leads to shirk, just as he forbad praying at the time of sunrise and sunset because the associationists at that time used to prostrate to the sun, and shaitaan positions himself in line with the sun at those times. Prayer at those times resembles the prayer of the associationists, so the Prophet closed this door. Shaitaan leads the sons of Adam astray to the extent of his ability. So whoever worships the sun and the moon and the planets and calls to them as the planet worshippers do, shaitaan will cone upon them and speak to him and inform of certain things. They then call this the "spirits of the planets", and it is shaitaan! Although shaitaan may aid a person with some of his needs and goals, he does harm to him many times greater than any benefit! The final disposition of one who obeys him is evil indeed - except for he toward whom Allah turns in acceptance.

    Likewise, the devil may address those who worship idols, and likewise also those who call for aid from someone who is dead or absent, and likewise someone who prays to a dead man, or prays with his name, or believes that supplication near his grave is superior to supplication in his house or in the mosques. Many of them believe in an alleged hadith, which is a forgery in the unanimous opinion of the experts, and which says:
    "When knowledge fails you, you must take yourselves to the people of the graves" (forged hadith)
    This was forged by those wishing to open the door to shirk.

    The people of innovations (bid'a) and the people of shirk who resemble them among the idol worshippers, the Christians, and the Muslims who have gone astray experience phenomena at the tombs which they visit which they imagine to be karamaat, but which are from the devils. For example, they may put a pair of pants on the grave, and come back to find it tied in a knot, or they may bring someone who is possessed to the grave, and see the jinn who has afflicted him leave him. The devil does this to lead them further astray. If Ayat-ul-Kursiy is read there with true belief and intention, none of these things will happen. Tauhid drives shaitaan away. This is why some of them have been carried in the air and when they said: "Laa ilaha illa Allah" (There is no deity but Allah), they fell to the earth. When some of them see the grave split open and someone coming out of it who they imagine to be the dead man, it is really a shaitaan. There are so many examples that this small book is not sufficient to enumerate them.

    Since isolation in caves or deserts is an innovation which has not been prescribed or recommended by Allah and His Prophet (sas), the devils frequently make their abode in caves and on mountains. Examples are the cave of blood which is on Mount Qasiyoon, Mount Lebanon, Mount Fath in Aswan, Egypt, the Mountains of Rome in Afghanistan, various mountains in the Arabian Peninsula, Mount Lukam, Mound Al-Ahyash, Mount Sulan near Ardabeel, Mount Shahank in Tabriz, Mount Mashko in Aqshwaan, Mount Nahawund, and many other mountains and places where people believe there are righteous man of the human type. They call them "the men of the unseen", and they are nothing but men of the jinn. The jinn are "men", just as humans are men. Allah said:
    [And verily some men from among the humans used to seek refuge in men from among the jinn, and so the latter merely increased the former in their burden (their burden of fear as the jinn gain more ability to strike fear into them due to their shirk, and their burden of sin, as they sink deeper and deeper into the shirk of seeking the protection of the jinn instead of Allah.)] Qur'an 72/7
    Some of these jinn appear in the form of a man covered with hair, with skin like that of a goat, and people who do not know him think him to be a human, but he is a jinn. It is said: on every mountain of the ones mentioned earlier are the forty Abdaal (see page 10). Those who they believe to be the abdaal are the jinn who live on those mountains, as is well known in a number of ways.

    Again, this area is too vast to go into it here, nor to mentions all of the things which I know about it. I have personally seen and heard more of these things than can fit in this book which was written for one who asked me to mention to him something about the allies of Allah, and how to recognize the important elements in this question.
    Read the rest of the chapter here: http://www.islamicboard.com/597999-post15.html

    Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 06-15-2007 at 04:21 PM.
    Saints in Islam?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?



    another thing is people keep taking misconceptions and slinging them, the sufi's who worship other then Allah have gone astray and the ones who do waseelah thru nabi have not gone astray.

    this is my view, respect it and i have seen much evidence for it.
    Imaam Abu Haneefah said,
    "It is not befitting for anyone to call upon Him, except by Him, and with the supplication that He has permitted and ordered, that which is instructed in His statement:
    "And Allaah has Beautiful Names, so call upon Him by them, and leave the company of those who deviate concerning His Names. They will be recompensed for what they used to do." [Sooratul-A'raaf 7:180]”
    ad-Durrul-Mukhtaar ma'a Haashiyah Raddul-Muhtaar (6/396- 397).

    Imaam Abu Haneefah also said,
    It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
    Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
    Saints in Islam?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by MM²™ View Post


    Imaam Abu Haneefah also said,
    It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
    Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
    WHOAH!!!

    i see, so its makhruh but not haram?

    detested - makhruh right? :S


    jazakAllah khair for thaT!!!

    Alhamdulillah ive never performed waseelah yet, but i never considered it haram either. i still aint sure, i'll research although i've already done loads of research.


    i'll make istikhara
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    detested - makhruh right
    Means hated not just disliked (makruh)

    wasalaam

    detest is to feel intense hatred
    Last edited by NoName55; 06-15-2007 at 05:15 PM.
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    Wow thanks for all the input guys!!

    So...bottom line..... do I not bother going to this place 'cause it's a bad mosque? http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...rsi-mosque.htm
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by MM²™ View Post
    Yes and this is because Islaam is strict monothiesm. To make an intercessor between yourself and Allaah is shirk, to supplicate to other than Allaah is shirk, even if you believe that Allaah is the one who will ultimatly answer the supplication as this was the very polythiesm of the Arabs before Islaam.

    The beauty of Islaam is that the common person has a direct connection to Allaah, and can pray and supplicate directly to Him without any intermediaries in the middle, and this is what Sr. Doodlebug said led her to Islaam.

    Not because they follow their scriptures, but because they took their scholars as gods obeying them in the permissible and impermissible matters of the religion.
    i agree that it is a beautiful thing about islam that you do not need a "middleman" to connect with god.
    but i still have a question about the role of intent here, because i know intent is important in islam. if someone chooses to invoke a saint's merits but his intent is completely to worship god alone and he is supplicating to god alone - is he doing wrong? (i am aware that there have been abuses and deviations in sufism over the centuries).
    the other question i have is would you say hazrat moinuddin chishti (http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-nawaz-ra.html) was practicing black magic?
    sorry for all these questions, but this is something i've wondered about for a long time.
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
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    Re: Saints in Islam?



    format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim View Post
    WHOAH!!!

    i see, so its makhruh but not haram?

    detested - makhruh right? :S


    jazakAllah khair for thaT!!!

    Alhamdulillah ive never performed waseelah yet, but i never considered it haram either. i still aint sure, i'll research although i've already done loads of research.


    i'll make istikhara
    Will you do something that a person from the Salaf considered as 'detested'? Especially an Imam like Abu Hanifa (you say you make taqlid of him)? I really don't see the need to even do Istikhara when the proof of its dislike amongst the Salaf is in front of you.

    format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug View Post
    Wow thanks for all the input guys!!

    So...bottom line..... do I not bother going to this place 'cause it's a bad mosque? http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...rsi-mosque.htm
    I'd avoid it myself since the Mosque has a grave in it.

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    i agree that it is a beautiful thing about islam that you do not need a "middleman" to connect with god.
    but i still have a question about the role of intent here, because i know intent is important in islam. if someone chooses to invoke a saint's merits but his intent is completely to worship god alone and he is supplicating to god alone - is he doing wrong?
    What do you mean by 'invoke a saint's merit'? I just want to get the intended meaning completely clear.


    (i am aware that there have been abuses and deviations in sufism over the centuries).
    the other question i have is would you say hazrat moinuddin chishti (http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-nawaz-ra.html) was practicing black magic?
    sorry for all these questions, but this is something i've wondered about for a long time.
    I don't know much about him, but anything from the sufi Tariqa's detailing the 'miracles' of their 'shaykhs', I would take with a few grains of salt.
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55 View Post
    would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
    yes. but it is not a good analogy because it lacks the shirk concept. if you go by this example, it is merely silly, not harmful.
    (mind you, i am not advocating anything here - just trying to understand).
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    What do you mean by 'invoke a saint's merit'? I just want to get the intended meaning completely clear.
    well, i'm not sure if i really understand this idea, but i think it means to remind god (which of course, he doesn't need) of a certain person's good deeds - like trying to put god in a good mood?). personally, i don't see the point either and it doesn't make much sense to me, but is it really shirk if the person's intent is to worship god alone?
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NoName55 viewpost 1 - Saints in Islam?
    would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
    yes. but it is not a good analogy because it lacks the shirk concept. if you go by this example, it is merely silly, not harmful.
    (mind you, i am not advocating anything here - just trying to understand).
    Not harmfull? is silly Billy going to pass his exams or fail? Is Mr. Examiner going to pass him?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    Hi snakelegs.


    If you've seen most of the acts of shirk which have taken place in history, most have only taken place as acts of 'disliked activities' - yet if one was to persist in this, then many generations later this is likely to turn into an innovation in the religion, and from innovations come other aspects which usually lead to shirk (associating partners with God in worship.)


    So we have to turn away from the disliked to save the future generations from any deception the shaytaan (satan) may cause. Just try to remember this famous saying; give shaytaan an inch, and he'll be a ruler.


    He just wants us to do one act of innovation per generation, and then the future generations are likely to increase in the innovations, and then usually fall into shirk. As you can see in the story of Prophet Noah, the story of the Christians, and even people from among the Muslims who have fallen into similar. And Allaah knows best.




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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    well, i'm not sure if i really understand this idea, but i think it means to remind god (which of course, he doesn't need) of a certain person's good deeds - like trying to put god in a good mood?).
    This is where I think your getting. If a person were to say in supplication: "O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet! (or the name of other righteous persons)".

    Br Abuz Zubair of IA had written about this:
    5) To call upon Allah alone, asking Him by His Prophet is a valid difference of opinion in Fiqh where none is censured. For example: O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet!

    This type of tawassul does not entail Shirk by agreement, but it is, nevertheless, a bida'i tawassul, over which the scholars have differed.

    Bida’i tawassul is, as al-‘Allama Hasan al-Shatti al-Dimashqi al-Hanbali says while commenting on Matalib Ulin-Nuha, quoting Ibn ‘al-Imad al-Hanbali: ‘Tawassul through the righteous is for one to say: O Allah! I make tawassul to you through your Prophet Muhammad SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam, or someone else, that you fulfil my need’

    Take note, that the tawassul referred to here involves directly calling upon Allah and addressing Him alone, by the right of His creation. It does not involve calling upon anyone other than Allah, for that will be dealt with later on.

    This type of Tawassul is differed over amongst the scholars, including the Hanbalis.

    Some scholars, including Ibn Qudama allow this type of Tawassul, while other scholars, such as Ibn Taymiyya do not allow it.

    [...]
    And as I quoted before, great Scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa detested this practice. He said:
    It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
    Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
    personally, i don't see the point either and it doesn't make much sense to me, but is it really shirk if the person's intent is to worship god alone?
    In the above scenario, the supplication is being made to Allaah alone and not the Prophet or saints, therefore it is not shirk.

    But when one starts to believe that he can ask/call out to other than Allaah whilst at the same time believing that Allaah is the one who will answer his supplication and the one he is calling out to is nothing more than an intermediary, it is still shirk. This is because the Arabs of the time of ignorance believed that Allaah was the Lord, but they commited association in worship, i.e. they took their idols as intercessors (and these idols were statues of former righteous people) thus they commited polythiesm.

    This is confirmed in the Qur'an:
    And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!
    [10:18]
    Similarly, Allah said of the pagans: ‘Most of them do not believe in Allah, except that they associate partners unto Him’

    al-Tabari says in his tafseer: Their belief in Allah is their saying: Allah is our Creator, our Provider, who gives us death and gives us life; while their Shirk is to attribute partners unto Allah in His worship and invocation.

    Lastly, Ibn al-Qayyim says in Madarij al-Salikin (1/332):
    “From the forms (of Shirk): Requesting the dead for needs, seeking their aid and turning to them.

    This is the basis for Shirk in the world. This is because the actions of the dead have ceased. He is not able to harm or benefit himself, let alone the one who seeks his aid, or asks him to fulfil his need, or asks him to intercede for him with Allah, for this is from his ignorance with respect to the intercessor and the one interceded for, as has preceded. This is because he (the intercessor) is not able to intercede for him with Allah, except with His permission. Allah did not make his ‘seeking aid’ and petitioning, a cause for Allah’s permission to be granted. The only cause that grants Allah’s permission (for intercession) is the perfection of Tawheed. Yet, this Mushrik comes along, with a cause that only prevents Allah’s permission (for intercession)!”
    I think you'll get more clarification in these posts:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/691705-post4.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/691707-post5.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/691708-post6.html

    I know your origninal question was a bit different to this, but I figured that if you read all the possibilities, it might be more clearer to you. Besides, this isn't offtopic Ask if you have any more questions
    Saints in Islam?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    salaam

    i have always been like weary off this saint and sufism thin, because its just all dodgy.

    and if your gona ask, ask directly from Allah (swt)

    "you alone we worship, YOU ALONE WE ASK FOR HELP" - surah fatiha, we recite it everyday remem

    and clearly Allah (swt) says in surah ghafir " call upon me and i will respond to you, and the arrogant ones who dont call upon me, will go to hell" simple!

    there are loads of ayahs about it, Allah (swt) is the creator, we should ask directly to him, without a creation!

    there are only like 3 accepted ways of doin tawassul, calling upon Allah (swt) by his 99 namess, i.e- in surah al araaf it says "Allah has the most beatufill names so call upon him by them"

    and a hadiths in Abu Dawud, Nisaai....

    Once, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) saw a man saying in his Tashahhud: ‘I ask You by virtue of the fact that all praise belongs to You, none has the right to be worshiped but You Alone, having no partner. The Great Bestower of all blessings, O Originator of the Heavens and the Earth. O Possessor of Majesty and Honor, O Ever-Living, O Sustainer and Protector of all that exists. Indeed, I ask You for Paradise, and I seek Your Refuge from the Fire.” So the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said to his companions:“Do you know what he has suplicatted with?” They said: “Allah and His Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) know best.” He said: “By Him in Whose Hand is my soul, he has supplicated to Allah by His Great Name, if He is called upon by them, He responds and if He is asked by it, He gives.”

    Also tawassul can be done by your own goods as was evident from the people trapped in the cave and they mentioned their good deeds and asked Allah (swt) to open up the trapped cave and it did, and also in surah al imran

    “Our Lord! We have believed in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. none has the right to be worshiped except Allah).”

    and again

    “Those who say: ‘Our Lord! We have Indeed, believed, so forgive us our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire’”

    so by mentionin your good deeds you can do tawussal

    anotther way which is by a good person who is ALIVE!!!

    this is a bit like when you say to someone, oh pray for me, or remember me in your duas.

    a hadiths is in Bukhari bout it aswell...

    Anas Ibn Malik (radhi allahu anhu) narrates from Umar Ibn Khattab (radhi allahu anhu) that when the people suffered from drought he used to ask al-Abbas Ibn Mutallib (radhi allahu anhu) to pray for rain for them. He used to say: “O Allah we used to request our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You for rain, and You would bless us with rain. Now, we ask the uncle of our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You, so grant us rain.”


    so the three ways of callin Allah (swt) by his beautifull names, mentionin your good deeds and by a good person whos alive, are the ways to do tawussul!

    but most of scholars agree that the bestest way is by askin directly from Allah (swt)!!!

    anyone askin the dead or somethin is wrong and should jump off a cliff

    next

    miracles of the saints? erm erm erm

    Allah (swt) knows best, but personally i do highly doubt some of the miracles,im not mentionin names but i do doubt the miracles i.e - someone turnin into a bird and rescuin someone, and someone standin in water for 40 years and bein spoke to by Allah (swt) and then when asked what he wants replyin, he wants to be Ali (ra), then Allah (swt) sayin " Ali (ra) has already been created but il give you his scent" lol that just doesnt get into my heart because if Allah (swt) asked me and im sure all of us "what do you want" we would say "jannah" direct innit, and also when Hadhrat Musa (alayhi salam) wanted to see Allah (swt) he passed away because of the amount of noor, but these people manage to see Allah (swt) and speak with him directly and stuff, they can do somethin which a Prophet (alayhi salam) hasnt done, thats certainly dodgy and doubtin for manz

    also there are many other stories, but Allah hu Alim, like many times it may just be a lie attributed to the person, or it may be true, anywhoo it shouldnt make a difference because islam is stil great and will remain great, it dont need miracles to show that, Allah (swt) has already shown that islam is great!

    may Allah (swt) guide us and make us better muslims and forgive us
    Saints in Islam?

    Jaa-Ro-Nee-Mo!!!


    "they ask you when will the help of Allah (swt) come! Certainly Allah (Swt) help is always near"

    Surah al Baqarah v214



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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    thanks to all your replies, i think i understand this now.
    personally, i agree - god needs no middlemen, why would he?
    anyway, i'm glad i asked cuz i learned something about the reasoning behind this ruling about tawassul. (i always like to know the reasoning).
    Saints in Islam?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55 View Post
    Not harmfull? is silly Billy going to pass his exams or fail? Is Mr. Examiner going to pass him?

    Wasalaam alaikum to believers & seekers

    Talk like this scares me because it can lead one down a slippery slope. This is exactly how Catholics justify kneeling in front of statues of the saints....they say that they are merely going to God through the saint because the saint is already in heaven and can put a good word in for them, so to speak.

    God doesn't need anything. God is Almighty and All Powerful. He needs no one to put in a good word to make your chances better because He Sees All Things and knows all about what you have done and what your intentions are, etc. He knows more about you than you do.

    I think when we start putting things between us and Him it will lead to other things. I mean don't we have enough that comes between us and him?? Money, pride, lust, etc. It's all I can personally do to fight off these things I don't need to add more fuel to the fire.

    It just makes me sad to see these women and men crying at the gates of these tombs and kissing the metal thinking it will get them to heaven.

    You kind of see that in Hajj too though don't you? People craving to touch the Kaba.................what's that all about? It's a object...it's not Allah. Sure it is a holy place but why crowd around just to touch it unless it's just for the sake of history and makes you feel good that you've touched something that Abraham has touched. (though the amount of times it's been redone the chances of your touching a spot that he touched are pretty slim to none I would think, right?)

    Maybe I'm too confused right now but all I know is I like my old Islam where I put my head to the ground and I am alone in front of my Creator just Him and me and I am humbled beyond humbled and NO ONE ELSE is there. just us.
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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    How would you know that you're a saint?

    If the saints themselves dont know that they are saints, how other people know that they are saints.

    How people know that Walisongo (Indonesian 9 saints), Abdul Qadir Jilani (Iraqi), Dhul Nun (Egyptian), Ismail Nagore (Indian) etc.

    What are the qualifications of an act to be qualified as "Karamah"? Any example of "Karamah"?


    http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

    Simply the best book on the subject. I advice you to take the time out to read it.
    Saints in Islam?

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    Re: Saints in Islam?

    format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim View Post
    i accept asking Allah directly by mentioning the name of one of his beloved which in this case is rasullulah salawatullahi wassalamu alaih.

    so wats the disagreement? :confused:


    http://www.islamicboard.com/770258-post12.html
    Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 06-19-2007 at 08:56 PM.
    Saints in Islam?

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