Saints in Islam?

We don't have saints in Islam, thats a given.

Statues are forbidden and we are only allowed to worship ALLAH, no one else!

But what is a wali?

But in islam 'wali' Allah do exist.

this is what confused me....
i know that muslims do not worship saints or have statues. but some do recognize saints and use them as wasila (?) though this is not approved of by orthodox muslims, and as some have mentioned, is considered shirk.

One cannot know what Tawheed is, if he first does not know what shirk is. Here is a link to an excellent book:

Kitab at-Tawheed of Shayk Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/creed/...ahab/index.htm

When you read this book you'll notice how little the author speaks from himself. You’ll notice that it is just verses of Qur’an and Ahadith with benefits that are derived from them.

format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug

assalam alaykum

Im confused. Are there really such things as "saints" in Islam?

No.

But the believers who have Imaan (strong faith) and Taqwa (Fear of Allaah) are the Awliya of Allaah, or the Allies of Allaah.

62. No doubt! Verily, the Auliyâ' of Allâh [i.e. those who believe in the Oneness of Allâh and fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which he has forbidden), and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)], no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve,
63. Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism), and used to fear Allâh much (by abstaining from evil deeds and sins and by doing righteous deeds).
64. For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allâh, this is indeed the supreme success.

A muslim is an Awliya of Allaah if he satisfies the above conditions and if he is not an innovator and he is a follower of the Sunnah of the Messenger as the Messenger and his Sunnah is the criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil.

Shaykh Al Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah has written an entire book on this subject which you can read here (and it's really the best book on this subject, it'll clarify everything for you Insha'Allaah):

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

The Awliya of Allaah are not a special class of people who have hidden knowledge as some believe. Every muslim is a Wali' of Allaah, and his level of closeness to Allaah depends on how much worship he does, how close he is to the sunnah etc. The book explains this entire concept very clearly.

I was reading about a place in Alexandria, Egypt where a saint is buried underneath a mosque there. (at least I think it's under a mosque). Anyways, I also watched a program about Iran last week and they showed a lot of people going to various sites there where saints are buried and kissing the tombs, etc.

This is clearly wrong and it's condemned in the religion, and sadly it occurs far and wide. The Messenger has forbidden us from raising graves and taking graves (even his own) as places of worship and he has commanded us to level the graves. Following are clear and explict narrations regarding the forbiddence of taking graves as places of worship:

It is narrated in Muslim that:

Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him:

Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.

Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said:

"When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:

"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good chain on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:

"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

The Messenger has even forbidden muslims from travelling for the sake worship, except to three places:

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)." (Bukahri, Muslim)

The Messenger has blocked all the means to shirk and he has put great efforts to safe guard tawheed. But some muslims have deviated and gone down the road that you see, imitating the Jews and the Christians as the Messenger foretold would happen, and you yourself are a witness to this.

The way shirk came into this world was by people exaggerating the status of righteous people at the time of Nuh a.s. The 5 names of idols mentioned in Surah Nuh in the Qur'an were righteous people. Once they died, people built statues and started using these statues to get close to Allaah, using them as intercessors. This is exactly what occurs. The people who go and call out to the dead in the graves claim they are using them as intercessors, but Allaah has made it clear that that is the very essence of polythiesm. Surah Yunus:

18: And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!

What's up with that? One of the things that attracted me to Islam was the fact that they don't have statues and like a million saints, etc. to pray to like I did when I was Catholic. The simplicity of praying to one God, Allah was the main draw for me so when I see stuff like this it is depressing and confusing.

help.

I agree with you sister. That's the beauty of Islaam, that we simply pray to one God. This is the pure message of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad, and every other Prophet invited to. It is however, very sad and unfortunate, that some people are misleading Muslims into going to graves and asking the person in the grave to fullfill needs. And at times the grave is empty and the people running the show are making money off of the ignorance of the muslims. Don't let this matter cause a rift in your heart, Islaam is pure, strict, and uncompromisable monothiesm. May Allaah guide the muslims who have fallen in this evil of taking graves as places of worship.

If you have any questions at all, please ask

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

now i'm confused. how is a wali different from a saint?
hazrat moinuddin chishti is recognized as a sufi saint - he is the founder of the chishti sufis.
what's the difference?

Without getting into sectarianism, its quite wierd what the sufis have in regards to their belief of saints. Their concept of saints is quite akin to the catholic/christian concept, where they believe it is not only permissible, but recommended to go to these dead 'saints' and ask them to fullfill needs. I have heard this from their own scholars.

Whilst the correct Islamic concept of a Wali is different and it is briefly explained in my previous post, and for an in depth look at it, you can refer to the book I linked to in the same post.

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

this is what confused me....
i know that muslims do not worship saints or have statues. but some do recognize saints and use them as wasila (?) though this is not approved of by orthodox muslims, and as some have mentioned, is considered shirk.

You see, no muslim would ever say he is worshipping other than Allaah. But then you will see some of those who profess Islaam, believing it to be permissable to call out to other than Allaah and to seek help from other than Allaah which is in direct contradiction to the core message of Islaam. You will find them at these graves making supplication to other than Allaah whilst the Messenger has said 'Supplication is worship', and they will be directing their worship to other then Allaah when worship is to be directed to Him only. And I have seen this happen with my own eyes, people prostrating to graves and such.

It seems it's a vice versa thing

Yeah. You can't appreciate black, if you've never seen white. You can't appreciate Tawheed if you don't know the futility of shirk.

thanks syilla and MM. i don't know about doodlebug, but i think i've got it clear now about saints and walis. some sufis call their saints by the title of "auliya" i think that's what confused me.
btw, i never heard of any muslims anywhere using statues! that's a whole new one for me. i thought all muslims were agreed on statues being strictly forbidden.
doodlebug, please forgive me for going somewhat off topic with your thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

btw, i never heard of any muslims anywhere using statues! that's a whole new one for me. i thought all muslims were agreed on statues being strictly forbidden.

But if someone were to put a chair in front of them with the same purpose behind it, whats the difference? It's not what the tangible object is, it could be a tree, the sun, a grave, or the person in the grave, but if the purpose and reasoning behind it is the same, then it doesn't really matter if its a statue or something else since it is being worshipped besides Allaah.

forgive me a little more, doodlebug, but my post crossed with this one.
thanks for your reply MM.

format_quote Originally Posted by MM²™

Without getting into sectarianism, its quite wierd what the sufis have in regards to their belief of saints. Their concept of saints is quite akin to the catholic/christian concept, where they believe it is not only permissible, but recommended to go to these dead 'saints' and ask them to fullfill needs. I have heard this from their own scholars.

yes, this is true.

Whilst the correct Islamic concept of a Wali is different and it is briefly explained in my previous post, and for an in depth look at it, you can refer to the book I linked to in the same post.



You see, no muslim would ever say he is worshipping other than Allaah.


But then you will see some of those who profess Islaam, believing it to be permissable to call out to other than Allaah and to seek help from other than Allaah which is in direct contradiction to the core message of Islaam. You will find them at these graves making supplication to other than Allaah whilst the Messenger has said 'Supplication is worship', and they will be directing their worship to other then Allaah when worship is to be directed to Him only. And I have seen this happen with my own eyes, people prostrating to graves and such.

yes, i have a friend who has gone to an urs celebration. are they making supplication to these saints or using them as intercessors? i realize that to use anyone for an intecessor is also considered shirk, but i don't really understand that. what about the role of intent? if he believes in his heart, and his intention is to worship god only, does the intent count? it's like a non-muslim may thing a muslim is worshipping the ka'ba, but he most definitely is not.

Yeah. You can't appreciate black, if you've never seen white. You can't appreciate Tawheed if you don't know the futility of shirk.

i think shirk is a much broader concept in islam than simply making a partner for god - would you agree? like some muslims consider jews to be practicing shirk even tho they are also strict monotheists - because they follow the teachings of their scriptures.
just noticed your most recent post -yes, i agree - if they are worshipping it, it doesn't matter whether its an actual statue, chair, money, grave etc.

I'm confused. Some one just neg repped my post saying we do have saints...

What saints?! How come I've never heard about this?

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55

wali can be translate as friend.

in this context all pious Muslims are friends of Allah ta'ala

its tru bro Allah takes all those who are pious as his friends may Allah make us of them!

Ameen

format_quote Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4

So saints = wali ullah?

yep

So basically some people translate the word wali as saint? (Which is outrageous considering the connotations the word has in the English language!)

By the way, if someone who is strong in bid'ah appears to be able to do a miracle, it is not a miracle given to walis, it is from the shaytan.

This was mentioned in Ibn Tayymiyahs book which was linked to earlier.

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

assalamu alaikum

no one worships saints, they are just esteemed, a saint is below a sahabi or a tabi'ee etc. its just a recognition of their piety.

Akhi, there are those that make Dua' to these saints and make sajdah to their graves. I can post videos if you wish. Yet these are the very same people that claim they are on Tawheed.

saints are only called saints due to karamat bestowed upon them for example there is a well known event of hadrat moinuddin chishti in which he lead an army through the water when trying to turn the indian subcontinent into muslims.

A Karamat can happen to any muslim, and a Karama is not sought for. Some of the 'karama' of these 'saints' is flying through the air, which is plain black magic, you can even see it Criss Angel doing it. Is he a Wali? For example, one of the leading Shaykhs today of the Naqshaband apparently has 'eyes' that can cure the soul of a Muslim. Who do these people think they are fooling?? (I can post the site where you can give him an e-bayah )

True Karama do happen, but it is does not mean that the person who recieved it is correct in all matters of the religion etc.

my parents knew far more about the history of the great wali ullah, i shud try learn more inshaAllah.

it is not a sufi thing, it is an islamic thing, when a person is bestowed karamat he is certainly a pious friend of Allah.

Allah knows best

Recieving a karamat is not the criterion for a person to be considered pious.

As Ibn Taymiyyah wrote in his book "The Criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil":

The karaamaat of (miraculous occurrences granted to) the allies of Allah are greater than all of these things. These miraculous things, though they may originate from an ally of Allah, they may also originate from an enemy of Allah. Such miraculous are performed by many of the disbelievers, associationists, Christians, jews, and hypocrites. They may also be performed by the people of deviant innovation (ahl-ul-bid'a), and in all of these cases, they are from the devils (shayateen). Thus, it is not allowed to believe that everyone who brings about some of these miraculous events is an ally of Allah. They can only be considered allies of Allah according to the the characteristics, actions and conditions which have been attributed to the allies of Allah in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They may be known by the light of faith and the Qur'an, the internal reality of faith, and the external laws of Islam.

And it is known about some of those that the Sufis believe are Awliya were in reality practicers of black magic. You can refer to Ibn Taymiyyah's book and others. Here is an example of what can be termed miracle:

There are many such examples throughout history, such as Al-Harith Ad-Dimashqiy who appeared in Syria-Jordan in the time of Abdulmalik ibn Marwan, and claimed to be a prophet. His shayateen used to take his feet out of the leg irons, and prevent weapons from penetrating his body. Marble slabs praised Allah when he rubbed his hand over them. He used to see people walking and riding up in the sky and would say that they were the angels. In reality, they were nothing but the Jinn. When the Muslims captured him and prepared to kill him, the executioner thrust his spear at him, but it would not penetrate his body. Abdulmalik said to him: You forgot to say Bismillahi. The executioner then said the bismillahi, and killed him.

Is he then a wali?

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

but the thing is the books got tons of hadith and ayyat which might have so much around it which we dont know... it seems dangerous to attempt to read kitab at-tauhid without a learned qualified scholar due to the small amount of detail and explenation given.

like bro MM said, its MAINLY ayyat and hadith...


Allahu a'lam, hope u understand wat im trying to say tho

You're right bro. Even though the clear meaning of the verses can be understood by any layman, here are two long, detailed, really EXCELLENT sets of audio lecture explanations on the Kitab for those who want to really understand and know the book and the verses and Ahadith in it:

Shaykh Abdur Rauf Shakir: http://islamlecture.com/kitabtawheed.htm
Shaykh Yasir Qadhi: http://audioislam.com/?seriesdetail=Kitaab%20at-Tawheed

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

i think shirk is a much broader concept in islam than simply making a partner for god - would you agree?

Yes and this is because Islaam is strict monothiesm. To make an intercessor between yourself and Allaah is shirk, to supplicate to other than Allaah is shirk, even if you believe that Allaah is the one who will ultimatly answer the supplication as this was the very polythiesm of the Arabs before Islaam.

The beauty of Islaam is that the common person has a direct connection to Allaah, and can pray and supplicate directly to Him without any intermediaries in the middle, and this is what Sr. Doodlebug said led her to Islaam.

like some muslims consider jews to be practicing shirk even tho they are also strict monotheists - because they follow the teachings of their scriptures.

Not because they follow their scriptures, but because they took their scholars as gods obeying them in the permissible and impermissible matters of the religion.