I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).
In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?
Allah says He is not father to any. Then why do you adduce such stories as evidences in which Allah is stated as Father of Jesus? Do they, who cite such stories, recognise that Jesus is son of Allah? Do Dr. Zakir Nayek, who often cites such verses, himself acknowledges that Jesus is the son of Allah?
god is father- meaning,God is father of universe,that he create his creation
god is son- for jesus christ born as a child without a dad in the womb of mary,Jesus is like a miracle to them, he can do miracle,so meaning God turning into Son...mean Jesus son of God,God is Son...Cause can be son and Father.so meaning it can transform to either one
God is Holy spirit..A holy spirit, is unseen...God transform back to Holy spirit...cause HE remain as himself....so Christian believe in trinity.
is like triangle!
Jalla Allahu Fi 'oulah, Ma lana rabbun siwah.
laa ilaha illa Allah
A sect of Muslims have invented a story which sttes that Mohammed (pbuh) said : "When Adam was in clay and water, I was there the messenger of Allah". It seems that the the worshipers of Jesus and Mohammed have received the virus from the same invented stories!
even if this is an invented story , it did not make Muhammed (p) God or son of God . So , this is not the same virus
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
even if this is an invented story , it did not make Muhammed (p) God or son of God . So , this is not the same virus
There are innumerable instances where Muslims deem Mohammed as a god or God's assistant. Instances are:
* They say Mohammed is omnipresent and all-hearing and they supplicate to him for intercession. Here they ascribe Allah's attributes to him.
* They say Mohammed manages the affairs of the earth from his grave. By this they ascribe the attributes of Alla to him.
* They often lie in their implication that Mohammed is the only friend of Allah. They also say Allah is pleased when His friend, that is Mohammed, is worshiped and He forgives the sins of the worshipers.
* They say it is Allah's command to supplicate to all-hearing and omnipresent Mohammed for intercession.
* A sect of them say Mohammed is none but Allah Himself in human form as he is created from Allah's light.
So it is necessary for Muslims that they themselves be unitarians in their faith and worship.
You may invite Christians to watch video of Dr. Zakir Naik..few lines from his lecture : A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary.The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):
(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]
(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
If you and your mentor Dr. Nayek say that the qoted verses are not corrupt, that is they are truly the words of Jesus, then it may be unequivoclly said that you agree to the statement that God is father of Jesus. So whoever quotes the said corrupt verses as true words of Jesus, he or she must be committing shirk and kufr in that Allah has clearly said in the Quran that He is not father to any, nor has He any parent.
You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame. He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
If you and your mentor Dr. Nayek say that the qoted verses are not corrupt, that is they are truly the words of Jesus, then it may be unequivoclly said that you agree to the statement that God is father of Jesus. .
nuh. These verses are for Christians to understand that God is greater than ALL including Jesus (p) & holy Spirit (p).
You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame. He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
with due respect , I totally disagree with you.
Dr. Naik is an excellent speaker . I am sure , his lecture has removed many minconceptions against Islam , Jesus (p) , God already. Not only Muslims , but many non-Muslims also learnt many things from him.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
it's a common belief in my country that when we offer darud , angels take that darud to the Prophet (p) . Yes , many believe Allah will accept the dua / will allow the Prophet (p ) on the last day to intercession for Muslims . Some believe he is made of light of Allah but these concepts are not making him equal to God.
Fortunately here no one believes ( to
my knowledge ) that Mohammed (p) is none but Allah Himself in human form . Astagfirullah.
May Allah forgive us all & show us all the right path , Ameen.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
Is God father of Jesus? Surely He is not father of any. So, the verse must be corrupt and a corrupt verse should not be knowingly cited.
it's a common belief in my country that when we offer darud , angels take that darud to the Prophet (p) . Yes , many believe Allah will accept the dua / will allow the Prophet (p ) on the last day to intercession for Muslims . Some believe he is made of light of Allah but these concepts are not making him equal to God.
All ibadah (worships) are for Allah. Does the story mean that the durud is for Mohammed (pbuh)? Will he be able to give any reward to any reciter of durud? Surely not. If so, then why should it be reported to Mohammed (pbuh) ?
ANYWAY, here's a "different" look at the claims of Christians in regard to their shirk,
Jesus/Isa[pbuh], according to the Christians is God, he and God are the same [Nowuthu Billah]; now in order to forgive us for something Adam [pbuh] did, Jesus/Isa[pbuh] had to be killed. now, who could [in theory] kill God except for God?????
so, according to Christians, God killed himself [because surely no-one can kill God], in order to forgives us from Adam's [pbuh] sin...
is suicide permissible in either Judaism, "Christianity" or Islam? NO! therefore to say that God HAD to violate the "Law" in order to "save us" from Adam [pbuh] violating the "Law" is ridiculous! WHO will then need to be sacrificed for God's breaking of His own Law?????
Christians also recite in their "Our Father" prayer: forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us" how come it doesn't say that they have to either kill themselves our their firstborn in order to forgive someone else??
just something to ponder....
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
I hope I can be forgiven making a comment. I'll not respond to individual posts, for I know I have no right to debate in this thread. But would like to say something for informational purposes that some of you may wish to think about. You see, one of the things I see happening is that assumptions are made regarding things that Christians believe regarding the Trinity that are not what Christians really believe. Often those assumptions aren't even stated in the posts. But when a person who holds those assumptions tries to educate others regarding the Trintiy they have those mistaken assumptions in their own mind when they beginning the process of analyzing, challenging, and submitting the Trinity to logic. Ultimately they reach conclusions which are posted in this thread. But if the assumptions are wrong to begin with, then those posts aren't really about the Trinity (or at least not what Christians mean by it), but something else that is not a part of our theology.
Disprove it, call it shirk, continue your discussion without correction from us Christians, but what you are disproving and calling shirk would not be the Christian Trinity, but only a stawman version of it created by those who apparently have no real knowledge of the Trinity.
So, you can knock it down, and knock it down pretty easily (I know I would certainly join with you in wanting to knock down some of the things that are being presented as if they were the Trinity here). But for all the posts (and even wisdom) this thread contains, unless you are actually discussing the concepts with regard to the Trinity that Christians actually hold to, you aren't discussing the genuine article, but the strawman others have created in its place.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 07-08-2008 at 12:42 PM.
All ibadah (worships) are for Allah. Does the story mean that the durud is for Mohammed (pbuh)? Will he be able to give any reward to any reciter of durud? Surely not. If so, then why should it be reported to Mohammed (pbuh) ?
what's the problem ? Allah sends darud to Prophet & it's the command of Allah for believers to do so .
"Verily Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet (s).
O, Believer! Send blessings upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation."
Surat Al-Ahzab (33:56).
offering darud for the Prophet (p) & reporting the matter about it does not make him equal to God. It's not worshipping Muhammed (p) but obeying God's command.
So , this practise / belief is not a shirk/blasphemy at all.
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 07-08-2008 at 06:21 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
the "Father" means daddy...Why A God is FAther? Father is attribute to human,not to God.....Jesus is Son of Man,Not Son of God....Isa al masih ibnu maryam!...God put the Nur(Quran)and Holy spirit(Bible) into Jesus,mean is created by Clay and Allah put a light into his heart,every chosen prophets by Allah,there will be a Light(Nur).....So jesus is noT Saviour,but to speak the words of Saviour,no one to be claimed to be as God,other than God!!
what's the problem ? Allah sends darud to Prophet & it's the command of Allah for believers to do so .
"Verily Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet (s). O, Believer! Send blessings upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation."
Surat Al-Ahzab (33:56).
offering darud for the Prophet (p) & reporting the matter about it does not make him equal to God. It's not worshipping Muhammed (p) but obeying God's command. So , this practise / belief is not a shirk/blasphemy at all.
Verse 33:56 is the most misunderstood one. Allah does not send durud. Whom will Allah pray for Mohammed? Allah either supports or blesses Mohammed. Allah does the same to all muttakins. Reciting durud (not sending) is command of Allah and the reward is from Allah. Why should Mohammed or his grave come into the play? Why should it be reported to him? Is he an entity to be pleased and reward? Only the misguided mushrikeens may take resort to such heinous faith and action, which is like worshiping a god besides God.
You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame.
I disagree abt Dr. Nayek.
There can b many reason which u don’t know or I do as well. We do not know any of other’s inner intention. So blaming others without knowing the real fact is an unwanted thing.
See this realistic example
Look when I speech how many ppl will listen 1-5 ppl may be..
But when top social person speeches how many will listen. It cud b 1000-100000 ppl.
So if u want 2 speak and make a large number of ppl listen to u have to b a top social person or a famous person or a powerful person or a leader of ur clan.
Rasulullah tried more to preach to the leader type person bocoz if a leader became convinced than most of his follower will b convinced with him as well.
It may looked to u Dr. Nayek is earning fame. But if u takes other angle it may look to u he may want to be a famous person in order to gain a comfortable access to a large number of ppl or top ranking ppl.
If we found he giving his effort to preaches an authentic things and make a very large number of ppl listen to it than there can’t b any doubt of his inner intention.
By the way. One think I must say you. No one is perfect. We r human. We can do mistakes.
format_quote Originally Posted by M H Kahn
He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
I think u misunderstanding this phrase totally. His idea was to prove from bible to the Christian. Who believe Bible is a word of God.
Look
U takes a quotation from Quran in order to convince a Christian that he is in wrong track.
U takes a quotation from Bible in order to convince a Christian that he is in wrong track.
What will b more workable?
As per my jurgement. I am no find him to convince a Muslim by quoting verse from Bible.
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