5 executed

[جوري]

he can even read about it in his favorite source for credible information..

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic

Maybe peter gilmore can teach him a trick or two..


cheers!

 

[Tania]

Under the Islamic system, you can be punished for things that dont exist ie. Black magic.

Apperently it isnt strict enough.

Inquisition did the same. They burned the people found guilty for spreading the magic but only after they were tortured. I don't believe in magic.

 

[Isambard]

I am in reality... apparently you aren't though, because my post never said that mistakes will never happen, just that Islamic law is designed to minimise the chance of mistakes.



Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, it doesnt exist period. There is no proof of it and alot of the allegations of 'magic' are just people not understanding what an Illusion is.

If under an Islamic sysmtem you have ppl admitting to stuff that doesnt exist, then there is obviously something very wrong with the so called justice system.

 

[Isambard]

Inquisition did the same. They burned the people found guilty for spreading the magic but only after they were tortured. I don't believe in magic.

Exactly. Might as well bring back the Inquisition or the Witch Trials. Follows a similar logic.

 

[Malaikah]

No, it doesnt exist period. There is no proof of it and alot of the allegations of 'magic' are just people not understanding what an Illusion is.

It has nothing to do with illusions. Black magic in Islam isn't about the illusions magicians get up to. It involved demons possessing people and what not. Not tricks!

Technically it isn't even magic because the demons are facilitating it and they aren't doing anything beyond their own capacity.

Anyway, you don't even believe in God, so I see no point in trying to convince you of anything else.

 

[Isambard]

It has nothing to do with illusions. Black magic in Islam isn't about the illusions magicians get up to. It involved demons possessing people and what not. Not tricks!

Technically it isn't even magic because the demons are facilitating it and they aren't doing anything beyond their own capacity.

Anyway, you don't even believe in God, so I see no point in trying to convince you of anything else.

You are trying to convince me that Shariah is more just that regular Western law. So by defacto you would have to convince me that black magic exists else your arguement immidiately falls apart as you can make ppl confess to that which doesnt exist. Thereby making Shariah a repeat of the Witch trials and damaging any credibility of the Saudi system of justice.

So, convince me

 

[Malaikah]

The only way I can convince you is by convincing you that Islam is the true religion. And I have neither the experience nor skills to do such a thing.

We are getting off-topic anyway.

 

[muthenna]

As for atheists theyre lost, death penalty is prescribed by Allah and his messenger Muhamed pbuh, thats all we need, Allah didnt say christians are right or democracy, or atheists, Allah obliged us to follow his instructions, thats final i guess,
As for Magic it exists, as shown clearly in quran and hadith, of course if you dont believe in god you wont believe in jinn (maybe atheists would believe in aliens more)
Saudi has bad things but it has good things in their law too

 

[Trumble]

In a just system you don't drag a man to his death is there were 1% doubt...

1% means one in a hundred might be innocent. A 0.1% doubt means one in a thousand might be innocent. In neither case can the figure be measured.

You have to understand the finite details of the law before building an argument on a hypothetical!

An understanding of any particular system is unnecessary when a conclusive argument embraces all. There have been more than enough miscarriages of justice across all legal systems to demonstrate that innocent people can be wrongly convicted under all of them. To think any system, 'Islamic' or otherwise is different is deluded. For any legal system, even if the legislature were divine, the judiciary and executive are not. Where there are people, there is the possibility of error, not to mention bloodlust, corruption. And indeed politics.

If you condemn the guilty so death sooner or later you also condemn the innocent. Many people argue for the death penalty while accepting that obvious fact, but it is complete foolishness to deny it. If you defend the death penalty you must also be brave enough to defend all its potential consequences.

am not going to suddenly think a murderer deserves another chance because joe mama thinks it inhumane to behead..

Although I could easily present one, the argument I posted has nothing to do with mercy or being 'humane'. It is concerned solely with the fallibility of any justice system.

No it isn't playing God, it is enforcing justice in a undisciplined and unruly world!

Such enforcement of justice can only be necessary in a Godless world. As IceQueen said,

That's why on the Day of Judgement, God does HIS Justice

 

[guyabano]

you speak as if you were a criminal?
I wouldn't want to feed a criminal and put a roof on his head while there are children literally starving to death..

I would also say, those who are guilty should be 'whiped out' . There is no need for them in society and they just cost huge amounts of money.

But then again, there are those psychopathics, who just admit crimes to protect the real guilty person. That makes it complicated again...

 

[Malaikah]

But then again, there are those psychopathics, who just admit crimes to protect the real guilty person. That makes it complicated again...

Wow, that is creepy. Well, at least God knows what they are doing and will punish them accordingly if He sees fit.

 

[Keltoi]

To me, the thought of spending the rest of my life in prison is more disturbing than the thought of death.

 

[Idris]

To me, the thought of spending the rest of my life in prison is more disturbing than the thought of death.

Nevertheless, most of the prisons are so full. I do not know concerning the US but here in the UK the prison are so full that killers and sex offenders are being let out early!

However, do something like tax evasion you’re going in for a loooooong time.
Sweet sweet justice.

 

[wilberhum]

I am in reality... apparently you aren't though, because my post never said that mistakes will never happen, just that Islamic law is designed to minimise the chance of mistakes.

I think you made yourself quite clear when you said

Islamic laws are very strict to ensure that no innocent people are punished.

 

[wilberhum]

As for atheists theyre lost, death penalty is prescribed by Allah and his messenger Muhamed pbuh, thats all we need, Allah didnt say christians are right or democracy, or atheists, Allah obliged us to follow his instructions, thats final i guess,
As for Magic it exists, as shown clearly in quran and hadith, of course if you dont believe in god you wont believe in jinn (maybe atheists would believe in aliens more)
Saudi has bad things but it has good things in their law too

Is that justification for killing people because they don't believe in god?

 

[جوري]

1% means one in a hundred might be innocent. A 0.1% doubt means one in a thousand might be innocent. In neither case can the figure be measured.

Is everyone in the city a criminal or are we just getting lost in imaginary numbers?

An understanding of any particular system is unnecessary when a conclusive argument embraces all. There have been more than enough miscarriages of justice across all legal systems to demonstrate that innocent people can be wrongly convicted under all of them. To think any system, 'Islamic' or otherwise is different is deluded. For any legal system, even if the legislature were divine, the judiciary and executive are not. Where there are people, there is the possibility of error, not to mention bloodlust, corruption. And indeed politics.

I'll take my chances then putting thousands of murderers (by your numbers) off the streets -- your analogy if you'll forgive me, reminds me of the promiscuous who don't wish to use prophylactics because of the 1% chance it might fail, yet they endanger themselves and put hundrerds of others at risk along with them because of a foolish notion!

If you condemn the guilty so death sooner or later you also condemn the innocent. Many people argue for the death penalty while accepting that obvious fact, but it is complete foolishness to deny it. If you defend the death penalty you must also be brave enough to defend all its potential consequences.

I am not the judge nor the executioner, if I were I'd make sure I have no reasonable doubt so that when I meet with my maker, I can have a clean conscious..

Although I could easily present one, the argument I posted has nothing to do with mercy or being 'humane'. It is concerned solely with the fallibility of any justice system.

be that as it may, I felt it warrented for our purposes to take it the extra mile!

Such enforcement of justice can only be necessary in a Godless world. As IceQueen said,

I thought from where you are standing, and other atheists are standing it is?


just to make to cover all grounds with this post.. and no this doesn't concern you dear trumble--
Many parts of the world perform satanic rituals (America has a church of satan) dark voodoo or hoodoo in the south and New orleans.. pls don't quote me where 'standard voodoo' is an innocent religion because a great deal of dark rituals are being practiced.. thus just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean people out their don't perform it, are members of it or that it exists (feel free to stick your head in the sand).. Whether something comes of their hoodoo or not is inconsequential.. it is the intent of doing harm and going about it, that is reprehensible!

New Orleans Voodoo, which is a local variant of hoodoo, is a mystery. Some speculate that it was used as a means of self defense to intimidate superstitious slave owners[citation needed]. This practice is not unique to New Orleans voodoo, however, and has as much basis in European-based magical devices such as the poppet and the nkisi or bocio of West and Central Africa.

These are in fact power objects, what in Haiti would be referred to as pwen, rather than magical surrogates for an intended target of sorcery whether for boon or for bane

look it up in your favorite news source (wikipedia)

cheers!

 

[Trumble]

Is everyone in the city a criminal or are we just getting lost in imaginary numbers?

Where you may personally be getting lost is your problem. My statement was quite straightforward and the 1% was your number.

I'll take my chances then putting thousands of murderers (by your numbers) off the streets -- your analogy if you'll forgive me, reminds me of the promiscuous who don't wish to use prophylactics because of the 1% chance it might fail, yet they endanger themselves and put hundrerds of others at risk along with them because of a foolish notion!

Gibberish. Across the world all convicted murderers are indeed "taken off the streets". Most are put into prison (often with no possibility of parole) and are not executed. Should it later (sometimes many years later) transpire that they were in fact innocent, they are still around to apologise to.

I am not the judge nor the executioner, if I were I'd make sure I have no reasonable doubt so that when I meet with my maker, I can have a clean conscious..

If you support the death penalty both judge and executioner are your agents and you are responsible for their actions. Unless you can both define "reasonable" and quantify the numbers of innocent people likely to fall victim to mistaken execution outside it, you are deluding yourself. Can you? What is "reasonable" doubt? Nobody should be convicted without that, let alone executed - yet people still are.

I thought from where you are standing, and other atheists are standing it is?

It is. I was considering your perspective.

 

[جوري]

Where you may personally be getting lost is your problem. My statement was quite straightforward and the 1% was your number.

sorry-- next time I'll make the odds smaller so we are not lost in semantics!

Gibberish. Across the world all convicted murderers are indeed "taken off the streets". Most are put into prison (often with no possibility of parole) and are not executed. Should it later (sometimes many years later) transpire that they were in fact innocent, they are still around to apologise to.

And I have already stated my convictions as a tax payer. Punishment should fit the crime, I rather think it an utter waste to feed, clothe, put a roof over the head of criminals 'for life', plus provide them with health care, when even ordinary citizens don't have that much--

If you support the death penalty both judge and executioner are your agents and you are responsible for their actions. Unless you can both define "reasonable" and quantify the numbers of innocent people likely to fall victim to mistaken execution outside it, you are deluding yourself. Can you? What is "reasonable" doubt? Nobody should be convicted without that, let alone executed - yet people still are.

What is reasonable makes itself apparent in the individual case.. Again I can't build a case on a 'hypothetical murder' to please you in an argument.. there are many things that contribute to the final ruling.. one main factor is expert opinion.. certainly a state forensic pathologist could present the case in very like fashion to how it happened.. there is DNA evidence, there is eye witness... the list goes on and one. And again this isn't the American justice system, where 12 morons sit and judge when they couldn't distinguish a cucumber from a melon, or the system that throws people into gitmo without trial.
We are talking God's law. Might not mean much to you, but to those who are God fearing it means a heck of a lot!

It is. I was considering your perspective.

You haven't considered it well!

cheers!

 

[Tania]

I can't give data about my country because we don't have death penalities but i found related to Saudi this facts :-[ (from Amnesty International)

*In Saudi Arabia, people have been taken from their prison cells and executed without knowing that a death sentence has been passed against them. Others have been tried and sentenced to death in a language they didn’t speak or read.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engACT500092006

*The death penalty is frequently imposed following summary and secret trials. None of those executed has had access to a lawyer. Some have been convicted solely on the basis of "confessions" extracted by torture.
Source: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/issues/dp.html

*24.10.2007: Executed in Najran because of his big heart :
He was originally sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment for helping a man escape from prison, but his sentence was said to have been changed unexpectedly to death, possibly following a secret appeal process.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE230382007?open&of=ENG-392

Reading certain posts i understand the sisters are defending the religious justice. But my question would be is this applied in Saudi or its something changed by authorities :?

 

[Cognescenti]

I wouldn't trust a "confession" from a prisoner in a Saudi jail. Still, I will allow they might have got it right.

Fortunately, this kind of crime wouldn't happen in Iran because, according to Ahmedinajad, they "don't have that element there" :giggling: