A great concern for us western non-Muslims....

[melonkali]

In the wake of Muslim immigration to western countries, and the growth of Islam in those countries -- can Muslims accept and support any form of government other than an Islamic theocracy, or must an Islamic theocracy always be the ultimate goal? I'm not talking about a "conspiracy to take over the world", just questioning that Muslims could or would support a traditional western secular democracy and civil rights/liberties associated with it, above an Islamic theocracy (which is, as you know, a terrifying idea to us non-Muslim westerners). How can you justify, within the bounds of your religion, supporting a status quo western secular democracy and its civil liberties? rebecca

 

[Crystal]

Hi I am not Muslim but I do like something about Islam. Countries that support democracy always go on and on and on about rights for humans - we have rights yes but we also have responsibilities - I think Islam acknowledges the responsibilities and rights in a more balanced way.

Democracy can also be flawed - are the majority always right?

 

[جوري]

sharia'a ISN'T A THEOCRACY.. we've actually discussed that previously here on board. Also western fears are western made and western propagated. Can you not see the complete difficulty of establishing Islamic rule in so-called Muslim lands with utmost disgusting resistance from the west? Can you not see the strife unleashed upon all those trying to establish khilafah even if that is what the people want through a so-called 'free and fair democratic process'
No we don't want to take over your world and if you'd look at it objectively, you'd see that western paranoia and western style system is what is imposed upon the world with force even though it is neither suitable nor working abroad or within the west itself, hence all those 'occupy movements'..
Westerners are doing exactly what they're accusing others of, through disgusting means and unleash hell upon wherever they go.. Look at the mess of Iraq, they managed to bankrupt it, ruin its infrastructure, looted its ancient treasures of Sumaria, killed its scientists made it into a sectarian shamble of a country between kurds, a Sunni majority and shiites. Have made the shiites hold control of everything, are shooting at the kurds who actually want to unite while highlighting how they're 'oppressed' obviously playing that card in three or four different places, such as Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq and have managed to leave with a vatican city size 'embassy' leaving behind their mercenaries and black-water agents to complete their agenda and playing the Iran card well so that when the time comes they can support their shiite counterparts in the region.
I can't tell you how your question irks me though it might not be your intent, but it shows complete political naivete and blindness to the ills the west brings to further their global agenda while highlighting a concocted threat against a people they've managed to play well for almost two centuries!

best,

 

[islamica]

Muslims are generally obliged to abide by the laws of the land and the country they live in, whether it is a Muslim state (al-khilafa), Muslim countries, or non-Muslim countries such as those in the west, as long as they are not ordered to practice something that is against Shariah. If they are forced by the law to commit a sin, then in such a case, it will not just be unnecessary to abide by the law, rather impermissible.

Some Muslims are under the impression that it is permissible to violate the laws of countries that are not a Muslim state (al-Khilafa), which is totally incorrect. Muslims must adhere to the laws of any country they live in, whether in the west or the east, as long as the law is not in contradiction with one's religion.

Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: "It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience." (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmizi).

The above Hadith (recorded saying of the Prophet) is general, in that it does not distinguish between Muslim and non-Muslim lands, although the understanding of the scholars is that it generally applies to Muslim lands.

Furthermore, many scholars have divided non-Muslim lands (dar al-Harb/kufr) into two categories, Dar al-Khawf & Dar al-Aman. The former (dar al-khawf) refers to a land where Muslims are under a constant threat and fear with regards to their religion, life and wealth, whilst the latter (dar al-Aman) refers to a land where Muslims are relatively secure and safe. In Dar al-Aman (such as many non-Muslim countries), many of the injunctions and rulings are very similar to Muslim lands (dar al-Islam), thus the command of following the laws of the land would also apply in these non-Muslim lands. (See: Radd al-Muhtar).

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=2409&CATE=144

 

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

Yes, Muslims will always prefer Shariah/God's laws over Man Made (secular, democracy etc.) Laws.

 

[Abz2000]

As long as there is no persecution of the faith and we are able to practice freely without being manipulated or forced to act Godlessly, and have freedom to invite others to the truth,
there is no violent revolution. Just a plain and fair field where the best ideas triumph, and the truth always wins through.

 

[melonkali]

Thank you for the honest responses. I apologize for any offense. I am shamefully aware of what the west, and particularly my country, has done to other countries and cultures. If I lived in another culture, I would be unhappy about people from the U.S. immigrating there -- we've been the cancer of the world. I also realize that much of the Muslim immigration to western countries is due to the devastation we've created in their home countries, where we never belonged in the first place.

Still, the situation now is what it is now -- the harm can't be undone, the U.S. is too financially tanked to offer restitution to the countries and peoples harmed, although we certainly owe such. There will be an increasing Muslim presence in the west, as there should be. Since we wrecked your homes, we should at least invite you to live in ours. I'm trying to understand in what ways we can naturally co-exist peacefully, and in what ways we may conflict.

Secular democracy is imperfect, but it is the preferred form of government and society for most of us in the west. It is my feeling that most westerners don't want a combination of church and state -- the Christian fanatics who demand a Christian state, while quite vocal, remain in the minority, at least in this country, where a combination of church and state is illegal, against our Constitution.

As for Sharia law, I'm not well versed in it, so I can only go by media reports -- do Muslims really require the right to behead their wives or practice honor killings, and stoning deaths, and other such traditions reported in the western media which are just too far from western values to be acceptable in our society? We've had issues in our history with wife abuse and child abuse and blood feuds, and our society has changed in the direction of women's and children's rights, no blood feuds or honor killings.

I do think that western countries which voice a problem with Muslim clothing are expressing an inappropriate Islamaphobia, and any objections about modest dress should be overturned in our courts of civil liberties. Have you seen the attire of the Amish and Mennonite (Christian sects) in America? I see no difference between their right of modest religious dress and the rights of Muslims. Quakers are not legally required to swear the usual legal court oath ("I swear to tell the truth...") because their religion forbids them to swear, on the grounds that all their words should be truthful, not just those spoken in a court of law or sworn by.

Do you think we might be able to peacefully co-exist and be helpful to each other, Muslims and Non-Muslim Americans? What good points/problems do you see? rebecca

 

[جوري]

do Muslims really require the right to behead their wives or practice honor killings, and stoning deaths,

Yes, it is a wonder any of us survive marriage or childhood being brutalized like so by our brothers, fathers and husbands ..

best,

 

[Nate]

most of the misconceptions reported about Islam is really just culture in the Middle East rather than Islam, culture and traditions can be good and very bad, thats just my 2 cents

 

[ayesha.ansari]

Well most of the time people merge the concept of westernization, Islam and democracy.. Well every thing can be wrong except the system oif Islam . If any country start following what Islam told then the country would become the most successful one. I saw many things which US follow is written in Islam. If they start follwoing complete then they would start ruling the world.

 

[Aprender]

do Muslims really require the right to behead their wives or practice honor killings, and stoning deaths, and other such traditions reported in the western media which are just too far from western values to be acceptable in our society?

Hello Rebecca. Thank you for presenting these questions here. To answer your question above:

No. No. No. No. Don't get your information from the media. I live in the U.S. Born and raised. As a former Christian and a former journalist, I can tell you, journalists lie. We wrote to sell papers. It is a business afterall and currently Muslims are the fuel to that negative spin money. Anyway, I think the best way for you to learn more about sharia law is to read a few books from Muslim scholars. I wouldn't try and learn about molecular physics from a dog groomer and so is the same with sharia law. You might be surprised at what you learn and see how much current U.S. laws aren't that far away from it.

And our society certainly hasn't cleaned up shop with blood feuds and honor killings. You do know about the bloods and the crips right? And don't get me started on other gangs. It still exists here. Visit your local "ghetto" sometime and you'll see. Just talk to a few of the children there and see how pretty our democracy really is....

As far as being able to peacefully co-exist I think it's possible but not probable just yet. Our government is becoming more and more islamophobic by the day to the point that they're now passing laws that take away the rights of "regular" Americans guaranteed in the constitution. And I don't care if people have a problem with me wearing my hijab when I am out and about. They can throw their little tantrum and shout at me whatever they like and I kindly invite them to get used to it. Muslims have been here before this land was the United States of America, we're here now, and God forbid unless the U.S. government is willing to put us all in concentration camps or nuke it's own country, then we'll be here after it falls. I am not going to conform to make my way of life fit into a secular democracy. Your secular "democracy" needs to conform itself to accept me for who I am, my religion, and live and let live and stop trying to change me or force me to be something I am not. I do not desire to follow any way of life other than Islam. There shouldn't be any concern about that at all. If anything other Christians should be happy that there are a group of people in the world that haven't modified the religion of Allah swt to fit their lives but strive everyday to adjust their lives to fit the religion of Allah swt.

May Allah help us and guide us all. Ameeeen.

 

[islamica]

As for Sharia law, I'm not well versed in it, so I can only go by media reports -- do Muslims really require the right to behead their wives or practice honor killings, and stoning deaths, and other such traditions reported in the western media which are just too far from western values to be acceptable in our society? We've had issues in our history with wife abuse and child abuse and blood feuds, and our society has changed in the direction of women's and children's rights, no blood feuds or honor killings.

No one beheads their wives in east or west unless they are pyschos. Honor killing is not an islamic concept but rather a cultural concept that cultural muslims, christians, sikhs, hindus, atheist and communists from india, pakistan, middle east, china, japan, etc engage in. It is not the majority but the minority who do it. If you google, you will find arab christians who came to the west have done it here as well.

Shariah or islamic law is governed and established by an islamic state which does not even exist in Muslim nations much less in the west. There are shariah courts in UK but they deal with civil law only, such as islamic rulings concerning divorce, marriage, custody, inheritance, etc. You can visit the link below to read up on what shariah really is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml

Do you think we might be able to peacefully co-exist and be helpful to each other, Muslims and Non-Muslim Americans? What good points/problems do you see? rebecca

We just need more educated and less intolerant Americans to make that happen.

 

[Crystal]

We've had issues in our history with wife abuse and child abuse and blood feuds, and our society has changed in the direction of women's and children's rights, no blood feuds or honor killings.

Sorry but I don't believe it is history. I think women all around the world suffer from similar issues but people in America seem to deny the fact that domestic abuse is still a huge problem there. I don't know why Islam is always matched with honour killings because I have never come across anything about it in the Islamic scriptures. Did you know that women in the US are killed by their partner more than any other person? And 1 in 4 women in the US are victims of domestic abuse. I wouldn't call it a historical problem its very much a present problem. But the thing is certain countries including the US make domestic abuse something to be ashamed of - why? Because we live in the 21st century it is presumed things like this don't happen and people have the attitude that no woman should put up with something like that - but some women do and they are ashamed to talk about it because of social pressure.

Its very sad that women in particular are subject to much abuse but don't direct the issue just in the Muslim world - its very much present everywhere and women should work together to solve these issues rather than working against each other.

 

[Riana17]

peace Sis Crystal, you are indeed knowledgable and we are longing to hear good news from you.

Inshallah it is written for you and all your loved ones. May Allah give you enough knowledge and guide you to the right path, Amen

 

[ardianto]

most of the misconceptions reported about Islam is really just culture in the Middle East rather than Islam, culture and traditions can be good and very bad, thats just my 2 cents

When Afghanistan Taliban regime forbade women to get education, some people on another place said "Look !..In Islam ....."

When a Saudi woman got lashes just because she drove a car, those people said "Look !..In Islam ....."

When a woman in Pakistan killed in honour killing because something that actualy not her fault, those people say "Look !..In Islam ....."

But when those people see a Muslim woman in Indonesia becomes a professor in university, drive her own car, and live happily with her family, those people say "Look !..In Indonesia ....." not "In Islam ....."

 

[melonkali]

Again, thanks for your courteous and informative responses. I'm only one average (or sub-average, really) American, but I can and do speak with other Americans from all factions, so if I can spread one grain of truth to one other person, perhaps that helps.

It's true that we still do have problems of blood feuds and abuse, but our society does not condone them, and so they seen as are a problem to be solved. It's sadly true that we aim at the leaves and branches instead of the roots of these problems, we address the symptoms instead of the sources. We'd rather spend 100x more punishing and incarcerating someone than it would cost to have given that person, as a child, a safe home and decent education. The U.S. has the highest per capita prisoner rate in the world -- we are a penal society -- many are incarcerated for non-violent or victimless crimes, especially drugs or crimes of poverty.

It's true that sometimes we can be insensitive toward the victims of abuse, not understanding the social, cultural, religious and psychological factors involved. So again we have a situation where we socially condemn and have legal measures against abuse, but in practice, we are not compassionate and do not practice the spirit of those laws.

Thanks for the clarification on Sharia law -- I gather, then, that the media is selecting the worst possible "examples" which actually represent mental pathology or a particular eastern rogue culture, but not the true teachings of Islam or practices of most Muslims. Muslims would certainly not be the first or only Americans to employ separate civil courts, so long as there is no action which would fall under the jurisdiction of U.S. criminal law. In all such instances of private jurisdiction of which I'm aware, a person always has the right to take his case before U.S. civil courts, and the choice is his/hers.

It seems, to me, that an influx of Muslim immigrants and/or a growth in the number of American Muslims would be healthy for this country, it might help us steady our moral compass. I support a secular democratic state because of the dangers inherent in church-state governments, which are less easily corrected than in a secular democracy. But a secular democracy is no better than its citizens, and we need informed citizens of high ethical ideals in order to sustain such a government.

Apologies for my insensitivity. It's been my experience that decent, honorable people can "cut to the chase" in discussions and address issues honestly -- it's the "too" politically correct ones I don't trust. However, I haven't yet mastered the art of being honest without sounding abrasive, sometimes rude. It's a problem of style, not substance.

People who know me personally could tell you that while I sometimes lack tactful speech, they can always trust that I've "got their backs", as we say in the Southern rural U.S. (redneck country) -- meaning that if I'm with you, and I won't say I am if I'm not, you can trust me to tangle with anyone who comes against you from any direction, I'm "watching your back". I have a feeling there is a Muslim equivalent of this sentiment? I know this kind of mutual trust formed the basis of my husband's friendship with a fellow social activist, a Muslim university professor, a few years ago (before the professor transferred to another state). rebecca

 

[جوري]

It seems, to me, that an influx of Muslim immigrants and/or a growth in the number of American Muslims would be healthy for this country, it might help us steady our moral compass. I support a secular democratic state because of the dangers inherent in church-state governments, which are less easily corrected than in a secular democracy. But a secular democracy is no better than its citizens, and we need informed citizens of high ethical ideals in order to sustain such a government.

How do you propose that when laws are being passed as we speak to make the lives of American Muslims an absolute hell? Yes believe me the FBI comes knocking on your door for merely sporting a beard and wearing a hijab or niqaab and going to the mosque.. they knock on your door so loud until your three years olds cry, and they're quoted as saying 'because we can' ..
I doubt anything can be done to forge bonds of trust or even friendship with agents provocateur, instigators and big brother watching.. it is a message for practicing Muslims to get out or be ready to be taken from your home in front of your wife and kids without trial, possibly even killed, as has already happened. They send their drones out on their own citizens because they don't like what they've to say. Your amendments are being repealed with the approval of the American public.. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing..

best,

 

[Perseveranze]

Muslims have been here before this land was the United States of America, we're here now,

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Amazing how many American's don't know this, not suprising really. When native Americans were first persecuted, quite a few of them were reverts of Islam.

[SIZE=+2]Islam in America before Columbus[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Hisham Zoubeir, 14 February 1998[/SIZE]

Before I begin this article, I would like to extend my thanks to the creators of the Internet. It was there that I found my research on the topic that follows, and it is to the people who wrote the various articles and references that credit for this article should go to. I merely put two and two together for the benefit of those reading this now.

The history surrounding the followers of our proud faith is one of two shades; the truth and the lie. The lies surrounding our history have been spread to every corner of the globe; that we were and are (?) barbarians, no better than animals. The truth is that although there were certain parts of history that do show that some of our followers were ruthless and brutal (such as the Ottoman Empire), this is not unlike every nation and country in the world. And we have a much more worthy things to focus on.

Before the West declared themselves the great scientists of the earth, before their own Renaissance, Muslims already were making discoveries in science that took the West hundreds of years to even begin to imagine. What a shame that people in Europe were being persecuted by the Church for their suppositions that the earth was round; they should have come to the Islamic world--- an Afghan Muslim had proved that in 793 C.E.!

However, the studying of the universe brought forth more questions, and more curiosity. The Muslims in West Africa were so intrigued by what was on the other side of the Great Sea, that they began their expeditions into the great unknown. Early reports of these travels are sketchy, but we can be sure that they crossed the Atlantic by 889 C.E.

That was 603 years before Columbus. And that is not counting the actual physical evidence in the United States today that dates back even further; however, we do know, as De Lacy O'Leary pointed out, that Muslims definitely had the scientific knowledge and skill to make journeys across the Atlantic ocean.

We were in the Americas, hundreds of years before Columbus, and of that we can be sure.

Clyde-Ahmad Winters. Barry Fell. Alexander Von Wuthenau. Ivan Van Sertima. What do they have in common? A lot. They all provided evidence to the above statement; and it is a statement of fact, not an opinion, although many have chosen to ignore it in the past.

Now, we are all aware of the grave tragedy that befell the various African people after the discovery of America. Many people from there were forcefully taken from their homes to America, to serve the people who had taken over that land. Black slavery. We also know, for a fact, that many of these people were indeed Muslims; that has never been in dispute, nor should it be. Clyde Ahmad Winters has given us details of how huge numbers of Muslims were brought to Latin America in a 1978 issue of Al-Ittihad: A Quarterly Journal of Islamic Studies, although later on in 1543, Muslims in Spanish colonies were ejected from them by the residing government.

Dr. Barry Fell, a noted New Zealand archaeologist and linguist of Harvard University showed detailed existing evidence in his work, "Saga America" that Muslims were not only in the Americas before Columbus arrived, but very active there as well. The language of the Pima people in the South West and the Algonquian language had many words in their vocabulary that were Arabic in origin, and Islamic petroglyphs were found in places such as California.

In the Inyo county of the State of California, according to Fell, there is another petroglyph that states, "Yasus bin Maria" which means in Arabic, "Jesus, son of Mary". This is not a Christian phrase; in fact, the phrase is to be found in the verses and ayahs of the Holy Quran. This glyph, as Fell believes, is centuries older than the US. In the Western states of the US he found texts, diagrams and charts engraved on rocks that were used for schooling that dated back to 700-800 C.E. The schooling was in subjects such as mathematics, history, geography, astronomy and sea navigation. The language of instruction was Kufic Arabic, from North Africa.

The German art historian, Alexander Von Wuthenau, also provides evidence that Islamic peoples were in America, in the time between 300 and 900 C.E. This was at least half a millennium before Columbus was born! Carved heads, that were described as "Moorish-looking" were dated between 300 and 900 C.E. and another group of heads dated between 900 and 1500 C.E. An artifact found in the earlier group was photographed, and when later examined was found to resemble an old man in a Fez, like the Egyptians.

Ivan Van Sertima is widely renowned for his work, "They Came Before Columbus" which showed that there was definitely contact between the ancient and early African people with the Native Americans. This and another of his works, "African Presence in Early America" both prove that there were African Muslim settlements in the Americas, before the expedition of Columbus was even conceived. His research has shown that Arab Muslim trade was active in America and one can only imagine that the marvellous culture that the Native Americans had that shared so much with Islamic teachings was of great attraction to the Muslims that came so far across the sea.

And for the record, Christopher Columbus, the man who so-called discovered America, himself declared that his impression of the Carib people (i.e., Caribbean people) were "Mohemmedans." He knew of the Mandinka presence in the New World (Muslims) and that Muslims from the West coast of Africa had settled down in the Carribean, Central, South and North America. Unlike Columbus, they had not come to enslave the populations or plunder the land; they had come to trade and they married among the Natives. Columbus further admitted that on October 21st, 1492, as he was sailing past Gibara on the coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque, and remnants of other masjids have been found in Cuba, Mexico, Texas and Nevada.

On the second voyage Columbus took to the West Indies, the people of Haiti told him that "black" people had been there before him. They showed him spears of these visitors, and further study of the metals involved in their construction showed that they could have been made only in one place: Guinea.

Another historian, P.V. Ramos, also showed in his essay in "African Presence in Early America" that the dietary regulations of the Carib were similar to Islamic teachings.

But let us say that we are wrong. Perhaps it is all just a coincidence; after all, there are no living survivors of the Native American Muslims, are they?

Wrong. And this last part is what originally drew me into this quest for knowledge: an exposé written by a Native Muslim.

Brother Mahir Abdal-Razzaaq El wrote in his account, recently posted on the Internet, about the Native Americans that were Muslims. He is of the Cherokee tribe; known as Eagle Sun Walker, and a Pipe Carrier Warrior of the Cherokees in New York. He tells of Muslim travellers that came to his land over one thousand years ago, and what is more important, existing evidence of legislation, treaties and resolutions that prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt that Muslims were in the Americas and very active. Although these documents have not been written after 1492, it is still interesting to note that Islam was in fact there. The Treaty of Peace and Friendship of 1787 have the signatures of Abdel-Khak and Mohammed Bin Abdulla. According to a federal court case from the Continental Congress,

Native Muslims helped put life into the constitution.

These are a matter of record; they cannot be disputed. Go to the National Archives or the Library of Congress and see for yourself; the Treat of 1987 show that the Natives abided by an Islamic system in commerce, maritime shipping and government. The records of the State of Carolina has the Moors Sundry Act of 1790. The Cherokee Chief of 1866 was a man called Ramadhan Bin Wati. Native clothing up until 1832 was full Islamic wear. The name Tallahassee actually means," Allah will deliver you sometime in the future." In North America, there are no less than 565 names of tribes, villages, cities, mountains and other lands sites of Islamic or Arabic roots.

The truth of Islam and the truth of the Native American culture is one and the same; many people hundreds of years ago realised that. The protection of the land and of the animals; the non-wastage of resources and the non-pollution of nature are all Islamic concepts.

I finish this article with a few Native sayings. And then, I want you to tell me that Islam is not nurtured in the hearts of these people.

"Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind but animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature." Chief White Cloud

"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night." Crowfoot

"In the life of the Indian there was only one inevitable duty- the duty of prayer - the daily recognition of the Unseen and the Eternal." Ohiyesa

Allahu akbar. Salaam wa allaykum wa rakhmatullah wa barakatu.

When this article was written] Hisham Zoubeir is at the University of Sheffield undertaking a multi-disciplinary degree in law. He has lived in Abu Dhabi, Cairo and London. His main interests delves into peace, equality, righteousness and spirituality.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html

​

 

[MustafaMc]

-- can Muslims accept and support any form of government other than an Islamic theocracy, or must an Islamic theocracy always be the ultimate goal? I'm not talking about a "conspiracy to take over the world", just questioning that Muslims could or would support a traditional western secular democracy and civil rights/liberties associated with it, above an Islamic theocracy (which is, as you know, a terrifying idea to us non-Muslim westerners). How can you justify, within the bounds of your religion, supporting a status quo western secular democracy and its civil liberties? rebecca

I have never heard a single word of a Muslim wanting to impose Islamic law and economic system on western governments. I don't get where this hate mongering and Islamophobia is coming from other than demonizing a segment of the population in order to make it acceptable to the general populace to treat them worse than rats and roaches as the Nazis did the Jews and gypsies in the 1930's and 1940's. My question is for you to honestly ask yourself, "Do Americans and non-Muslim westerners have a real justification for their 'terrifying idea and fear of an Islamic theocracy and shariah law', or do American Muslims and Muslims living in western countries have a right to fear their being arrested without charge and being sent to Gitmo or some secret prison to be tortured and to extract 'confession' to crimes they didn't commit?"

 

[Nate]

When Afghanistan Taliban regime forbade women to get education, some people on another place said "Look !..In Islam ....."

When a Saudi woman got lashes just because she drove a car, those people said "Look !..In Islam ....."

When a woman in Pakistan killed in honour killing because something that actualy not her fault, those people say "Look !..In Islam ....."

But when those people see a Muslim woman in Indonesia becomes a professor in university, drive her own car, and live happily with her family, those people say "Look !..In Indonesia ....." not "In Islam ....."

Thats propaganda at work, Americans want to believe the worst so the wars are "justified" in there eyes, many dont want the truth they feel if everyone believes it then its true. It disgusting how these people hate what they don't understand.