A Question about Jesus being God

[MustafaMc]

Hi Qatada:

Thank you for clarifying your perspective on this matter. Your interpretation is logical and is supported by the contextual verses. However, it is in conflict with the Books that came before and with recorded history.

More important than the crucifixion, the Quran is in direct conflict with the NT over Jesus being the Son of God.

Quran 5:17
Indeed those have committed Kufr (rejected faith) who said, "God is the Messiah, son of Maryam." O Muhammad, ask them, "Who has the power to prevent Allah if He chose to destroy the Messiah the son of Maryam, his mother and all that is in the earth? Allah has the sovereignty over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He pleases and has power over everything".

If you want to assume that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place, then you must provide some credible evidence of that claim.

Why must we prove what the Quran says with so called historical evidence? We accept what it says as the Word of Allah and that is good enough for me.

Brother Qatada has already quoted Quran 4:157
They even say: "We have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam, the Rasool of Allah." Whereas in fact, neither did they kill him nor did they crucify him but they thought they did because the matter was made dubious for them. Those who differ therein are only in doubt. They have no real knowledge, they follow nothing but merely a conjecture, certainly they did not kill him (Jesus).

Are there other verses in the Qu’ran that support that claim? Are there any verses in the Codex Sinaiticus, or any other Bible that would have been easily available to Mohammed, that support that claim?

What evidence do you have that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) had access to the Christian Bible or that he read it?

Have any historians made that claim? If not, then it would be prudent to interpret the verse in a way that is consistent with the historical facts - if this can be done without being intellectually dishonest.

So you accuse us Muslims of intellectual dishonesty because we believe what the Quran says over the NT and so-called historical record? We don't "interpret" the Quran just to make it say what we may want it to say in order for it to be more "believable".

Fortunately, the verse can be interpreted in accordance with recorded history while maintaining the integrity of the verse.

In support of Jesus not being crucified, you quoted:
Since you used this argument to support your view that Jesus could not have been crucified, please provide some evidence of this belief.

We don't have to have evidence for our belief beyond what the Quran says. I have absolutely no evidence of life after death, Heaven or Hell, or even of angels, but yet I believe.

Please note that at the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah returned to the Earth and talked with Jesus before He died.

Have a great weekend everyone.
Grenville

After Jesus was transfigured did he get transfigured back to normal form before the "crucifixion" and then back again to "spiritual form" for accension?

 

[Walter]

Hi MustafaMc:

I was just leaving the office when I saw this:

So you accuse us Muslims of intellectual dishonesty because we believe what the Quran says over the NT and so-called historical record?

Of course not. Please review my post. Since the verse can be interpreted both ways, without damaging the integrity of the verse, and without having to be intellectually dishonest, then it would be prudent to interpret it a way that is consistent with recorded history.

I will respond to the rest of your post next week. Have a great weekend.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi Grenville.


The reason why i used this interpretation is because:


1) this was the interpretation of the classical scholars.

2) If we are to use your interpretation, the "..it was made to appear to them..." part of the verse wouldn't be there, but since it is - it supports point 1 even further.





Regards.

 

[Walter]

Hi Qatada:

You wrote:

The reason why i used this interpretation is because: 1) this was the interpretation of the classical scholars.

Please be advised that even the Tafsirs acknowledge that this verse lends itself to more than one interpretation. Since this verse is the most contentious verse in the entire Qu’ran, then why would you wish to interpret it in a way that is not supported by recorded history, and in a way that is not supported by any other verse in the Qu’ran. Why this refusal to interpret the verse in a way that supports recorded history and is in harmony with the rest of the Qu’ran and the entire Bible?

Regards,
Grenville

 

[silkworm]

Jesus Christ pbuh said nothing about himself of being a God or that he should be worshipped:

Gospel of John

Chapter 14, Verse 28
Chapter 10, Verse 29

Gospel of Matthew

Chapter 12, Verse 28


Gospel of Luke

Chapter 11, Verse 20
Chapter 5, Verse 30


Thanks

 

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Jesus is not god Allah is god.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus Christ pbuh said nothing about himself of being a God or that he should be worshipped:

Gospel of John

Chapter 14, Verse 28
Chapter 10, Verse 29

Gospel of Matthew

Chapter 12, Verse 28


Gospel of Luke

Chapter 11, Verse 20
Chapter 5, Verse 30


Thanks

Don't read those passages in isolation from these:

Luke 19
37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Luke 5
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."

John 10
30[Jesus said:] "I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Matthew 26
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.

Luke 22
66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us."
Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."

One does not have to explicit state "I am God" to be making a claim to be God. The way that Jesus used the phrase "Son of God" was a claim to diety. This was clearly understood that way by the Jews who used that as sufficient reason with one another to have Jesus put to death. Their charge against him would have been blasphemy. Of course, the Romans could care less about that, so with Pilate they charged Jesus with sedition against the state. That Jesus ascribed to himself diety is so clear that, even today, Jews who read the Gospel label Jesus with the charge of blasphemy.

 

[Walter]

Hi MustafaMc:

Why must we prove what the Quran says with so called historical evidence? We accept what it says as the Word of Allah and that is good enough for me.

Brother Qatada has already quoted Quran 4:157
They even say: "We have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam, the Rasool of Allah." Whereas in fact, neither did they kill him nor did they crucify him but they thought they did because the matter was made dubious for them. Those who differ therein are only in doubt. They have no real knowledge, they follow nothing but merely a conjecture, certainly they did not kill him (Jesus).


What evidence do you have that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) had access to the Christian Bible or that he read it?

Please note that much of what you have queried has already been responded to in this thread. Please read my discussion with Qatada and then let me know what specifically you disagree with.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey Grenville.


I stated in my earlier post;

2) If we are to use your interpretation, the "..it was made to appear to them..." part of the verse wouldn't be there, but since it is - it supports point 1 even further.​

Why would this part of the verse be stated if the crucifixion took place of Jesus son of Mary? It's clear and apparent in the verse that he never got killed, and the only difference you've shown is whether it was the Jews or Christians who performed the crucifixion. And even then, there's nothing contradictory in our texts in regard to that.




Regards.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Why would this part of the verse be stated if the crucifixion took place of Jesus son of Mary?

Sorry, I can't answer your question and keep the rules I agreed to abide by when I registered on this forum. So, it will have to remain unanswered.

 

[Walter]

Hi Qatada:

You raised a good point. Please remember that I have already acknowledged that there is some merit in your interpretation of this verse. However, since it is the most contentious verse in the Qur’an, let us see whether there is another logical interpretation.

Why is the phrase “it was made to appear to them” inserted. Well let us review the verse once more:

4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Qatada, let us try to agree with what the “it” refers to in “but so it was made to appear to them” in order to more accurately interpret the verse. The “it” can either be their boast "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" or it could be the response “but they killed him not, nor crucified him”. If we agree with that, then let us move on, otherwise please provide another reference to “it”.

Regardless of which of these options you select, they both support the interpretation that the Jews (the “we “ in “We killed Christ” and the “they” in “but they killed Him not”) did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Him, but the Romans did.

If we assume that the “it” refers to “he was not killed, nor was he crucified”, then that would clearly and irrefutably support your interpretation. However, the verse does not say that. Further, no other verse that I am aware of in the Qur’an supports the idea that Jesus was not crucified. If you know of another one, then please provide it, otherwise, you should be willing to look at another interpretation of this verse.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey Grenville.


From the verse, we see that the:

4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-



​

The part in blue follows up with the part in orange, i.e. that they 'killed him not, nor crucified him' 'but so it was made to appear to them' and this is the clear explanation. That they never killed him, nor crucified him - but it was made to appear to them.



It's not on my part to find another interpretation, since you're contradicting all the classical scholars of our religion, and i'm sure that none of them have ever come up with the conclusion that you've stated.


Why do i say this? Because if someone is to say that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) died - then they are saying that a person can return back to this world when this is not the case in Islam. Once someone dies/tastes death, they move on to the Barzakh [the life in between this life and the life of the hereafter] - so if Jesus son of Mary was to die, he wouldn't be able to return back to this world, and therefore he wouldn't be the Christ/Messiah. Since it's only the Christ/Messiah who will fight and defeat the Anti-Christ.


What's my proof that Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him still has to return?

Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.

And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.

And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

And let not Shaitan (Satan) hinder you (from the right religion, i.e. Islamic Monotheism), Verily, he (Satan) to you is a plain enemy.

And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me.

"For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."

But the denominations from among them differed [and separated], so woe to those who have wronged from the punishment of a painful Day.


[Qur'an 43: 59-65]



​

What are my proofs that Jesus is human:

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (Qur'an 5:75).



​

Until, when death comes to one of them (those who join partners with Allah), he says: "My Lord! Send me back,

"So that I may do good in that which I have left behind!" No! It is but a word that he speaks, and behind them is Barzakh (a barrier) until the Day when they will be resurrected.


[Qur'an 23: 100-1]



​

So we see from the two verses above that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) was a human, and so was his mother. And from the second set of verses we see that when someone dies, behind them is a Barzakh/a barrier until the Day of Ressurection, and they cannot return to this world.

Therefore to argue that Jesus son of Mary died, this would contradict our beliefs anyway, therefore that argument isn't valid from both sides.







Regards.

 

[back_to_faith]

The “it” can either be their boast "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" or it could be the response “but they killed him not, nor crucified him”. If we agree with that, then let us move on, otherwise please provide another reference to “it”.

Regardless of which of these options you select, they both support the interpretation that the Jews (the “we “ in “We killed Christ” and the “they” in “but they killed Him not”) did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Him, but the Romans did.

Regards,
Grenville

Where in the text is the slightest hint that the Roman did?

under your line of reasoning ....the following verse


Holy Quran 5:110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Allah will remind his prophet of his bless upon him and how he saved him from the Jews ,and let him to the Romans to crucify him !!!!

Does it make sense to you?!!

The “it” refers obviously to "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"

nothing Quranic ,or based on authentic Hadiths , has the slightest hint of a Roman crucifiction,nor someone else was put to death instead of Jesus

The best interpretation to the verse I ever read and feel convinced to ,is the following by the Genius scholar Muhammad Asad :

(excert from Translation of Holy Quran, Translated and Explained by M Asad)

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/

the Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it - albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).


Regards, BTF

 

[Grace Seeker]

The best interpretation to the verse I ever read and feel convinced to ,is the following by the Genius scholar Muhammad Asad :

(excert from Translation of Holy Quran, Translated and Explained by M Asad)

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/

the Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it - albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).


Regards, BTF

That interpretation hardly does justice to the Qur'an.

As the author indicates, the Qur'an says, "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so".

One must ask the question of the text, to whom does the term "them" apply? The author of this interpreation suggests that there was no crucifixion at all, and that it arose as a legend. That would make the "them" to whom it appeared that Jesus had died the later church that canonized this story. But it reads much more in harmony with the rest of the Qur'an to understand those being referred to by the pronoun "them" to be bystanders of an actual crucifixion. To these bystanders some one could "appear" to be Jesus who wasn't. But if the pronoun "them" refers to the later church as concotters of a fabriced story, then there would be no one to "appear" to them.

 

[back_to_faith]

That interpretation hardly does justice to the Qur'an.

As the author indicates, the Qur'an says, "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so".

One must ask the question of the text, to whom does the term "them" apply? The author of this interpreation suggests that there was no crucifixion at all, and that it arose as a legend. That would make the "them" to whom it appeared that Jesus had died the later church that canonized this story. But it reads much more in harmony with the rest of the Qur'an to understand those being referred to by the pronoun "them" to be bystanders of an actual crucifixion. To these bystanders some one could "appear" to be Jesus who wasn't. But if the pronoun "them" refers to the later church as concotters of a fabriced story, then there would be no one to "appear" to them.

Greetings ,Seeker

I have just read your post.....

but ,sadly I have to sleep now

wish I had time to respond ..but it needs time. and I will explain in details why this interpretation makes sense for me,tomorrow inshaAllah..

peace

 

[back_to_faith]

That interpretation hardly does justice to the Qur'an.

As the author indicates, the Qur'an says, "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so".

One must ask the question of the text, to whom does the term "them" apply? The author of this interpreation suggests that there was no crucifixion at all, and that it arose as a legend. That would make the "them" to whom it appeared that Jesus had died the later church that canonized this story. But it reads much more in harmony with the rest of the Qur'an to understand those being referred to by the pronoun "them" to be bystanders of an actual crucifixion. To these bystanders some one could "appear" to be Jesus who wasn't. But if the pronoun "them" refers to the later church as concotters of a fabriced story, then there would be no one to "appear" to them.

Greetings,

1-The term (them) refers without doubt to the Jews.

2-according to the interpretation, there would be no one to "appear" to them,there would be something fancied to them.

let's analyse the verses under discussion objectively,in order to see whether such interpretation makes sense:

. verse 4:156-159 "That they(The Jews) rejected Faith; That they(The Jews) uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they(The Jews) said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it(The issue of crucificion) was made to appear to them so, and those(The Jews or those alike who accepted,or pretended to accept the hearsay un-verified account) who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power.

the verses mention:

1-The Jews falsely claimed that they killed Jesus The son of Mary (pbuh).

2-The Quran denies that such crucifiction ever happened.

3-The Quran shows that .and in light of the fact that not one Jew(and others too) ever witnessed a crucifiction,so their claim that Jesus was cricified was something fancied to them,why? because it was based on a hearsay account......

4- and that is what the text showed further:

(and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not)
thoses,refers to all those(including Jews or others) who differd regarding the (crucifiction issue) are:

A-full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge eg;Eyewitnesses testimonies.
B-Had only conjecture to follow.

There is nothing strange at all,regarding a false propaganda telling that a famous person has been killed,especially if such person disappeared from the scene (Allah raised him ).



Now let's analyse the other interpretation:

Sale:
[004:157] and have said, verily we have slain Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God; yet they slew him not, neither crucified him, but he was represented by one in his likeness;

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[004:157] And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man),


the above translations seem to be inaccurate:why?

first of all, it is not linguistically, possible

1-if the pronoun(Ha) of the word(Shubbeha) refers to Jesus ,then the verse to be translated as follows:

(but the resemblance of another man was put over Jesus (pbuh) !!!)
the previous verse (And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah (Jesus), son of (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him) mentions nothing regarding a man whom his resemblance was put over Jesus (pbuh) ,and nothing about the opposite too....

imam zamakshari in his Quranic Tafseer ,highlighted this issue well.


second: If the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and witnessed all that,
upon what basis they :
differd therein ,were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow ?
If the man was 100% similar to jesus,logically there would be no motive for them to differ and follow conjecture.

one might argue ,that they crucified another person similar ,and heard the disciples saying that he wasn't jesus as jesus is still alive.
we have problems here:

1-That is not Quranic claim.

2-If they got such correction from the disciples part, then we have either:
A-they verified that he is still alive,so no motive for differing and following conjecture then.
B- they couldn,t verify that ,hence again no motives for them to differ whether he was Jesus or someone else ,If they crucified someone exactly similar to Jesus ,then logically there would be no motive to differ,get confused by a (unverfied claim) by his zealous disciples.


Now we have interesting Question:

What would be if we find in the Quran a verse claims that the disciples never witnessed Jesus' last days and believed the Jews' claim of crucifiction?

the answer:

there would be no problem at all, it is a case of a sincere disciple who believed that Jesus the servant of God was killed by the Jews ,as previous great prophets were killed by their hands too.....
If a disciple or even some christian early sects who belived in Jesus message as a prophet who preached them the Gospel, true monotheism ,keeping the commandments etc..,and such great prophet faced the same end that other great prophets faced before.....,we have no reason at all to consider such persons,sects as misbelievers,
they were just misinformed regarding the last days of Jesus,which holds no merit compared with the facts regarding the message he preached.
for the sake of argument,imagine if the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never said how he will die,and he died a natural death,but his followers believed him to be killed ,using a hearsay account, Do you think if they lived and died believing in that ,to be considered as misbelievers?lacking faith? I don't think so
when should we consider them misbelievers?

If they believed that ,the claim they heard (Mohamed pbuh was killed),has something to do with alien concepts to his teachings such as (blood atonment,salvation through blood etc)....

Holy Quran 22:37 It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."




Seeker plz do me a favor....
if you wish to go on discussing this matter,I suggest we do it in the your thread.
(things in islam I'm curious about)....

just copy my post there. and thanx

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Interesting, but now I've got several days of work I have to attend to before I can devote any serious amount of time in discussion here. I will attempt to respond next week, and if I fail to someone, please, PM me.

 

[Walter]

Hi Back to Faith:

Please note that you have based your entire interpretation of this verse upon the following critical and unsupported assumption.

“2-The Quran denies that such crucifiction ever happened.”

The Qur’an does not deny that the crucifixion occurred, nor does it deny that Jesus was crucified. It says that the Jews did not crucify Him. Further, if Mohammed truly believed that Jesus was not crucified, then given the significance of such a claim, it would certainly have been supported elsewhere in the Qur’an as his other contentious claims have been. However, it does not appear to be.

There is no doubt that the verse can be interpreted to mean that Jesus was not crucified. However, only if the assumption that He was not crucified is supported elsewhere in the Qur’an. Since it does not appear to be, and since another interpretation exists that is in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, then why this resistance to at least consider it.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[جوري]

Dear Grenville.. the Quran does deny the crucifiction of Jesus, and especially denies his Divinity.. I have quoted for your viewing some excerpts-- I'd say none more evident than the one highlighted in red..
peace!

• Behold! Allah said: "O 'Isa! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. 3.55
  
  
  
• The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was. 3.59
  
• That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. 4.157
  
• O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. 4.157
  
  
• Then will Allah say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the Unbelievers among them said: `This is nothing but evident magic.' 5.110
  
• Said 'Isa the son of Maryam: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a Table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a Sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." 5.114
  
• And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5.116
  
  
  
• Such (was) 'Isa the son of Maryam: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19.34

 

[Grace Seeker]

Dear Grenville.. the Quran does deny the crucifiction of Jesus, and especially denies his Divinity.. I have quoted for your viewing some excerpts-- I'd say none more evident than the one highlighted in red..
peace!

I noticed only one of those verses said anything about the crucifixion. Is there any more than this verse with regards to Jesus' crucifixion or lack thereof in the Qur'an?

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. 4.157