A Question about Jesus being God

[جوري]

all can be found here
http://quran.al-islam.com/arb/

this is from the Quran
you may also search all that pertains to him in the hadith here
The query [jesus] generated the following matches:
http://www.usc.edu/cgi-bin/msasearch

Complete Sahih Bukhari

001.003.097 001.008.345 003.034.425 003.043.656 004.054.429 004.054.462 004.054.506 004.055.568 004.055.607 004.055.608 004.055.640 004.055.644 004.055.645 004.055.647 004.055.648 004.055.649 004.055.650 004.055.651 004.055.652 004.055.653 004.055.655 004.055.656 004.055.657 004.055.658 005.058.227 005.058.284 006.060.003 006.060.105 006.060.149 006.060.150 006.060.236 006.060.238 006.060.239 006.060.264 007.063.209 008.076.533 008.076.570 008.082.817 009.093.507 009.093.532v 009.093.601

Complete Sahih Muslim

001.0293 001.0313 001.0314 001.0316 001.0317 001.0321 001.0322 001.0325 001.0328 001.0352 001.0373 001.0377 001.0378 001.0380 001.0397 004.0918 007.2877 025.5326 030.5834 030.5835 030.5836 030.5840 033.6429 041.6924 041.6931 041.6932 041.6933 041.6934 041.7015 041.7023

Partial Sunan Abu Dawud

037.4310 037.4322

peace!

 

[جوري]

I learned a few hadiths about Jesus (p) myself just browsing through these.. that he was

Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair.

in fact I didn't know that, sobhan Allah.. we learn something new every day! Maybe I shouldn't have wished for death this morning :lol:?

 

[back_to_faith]

Hi Back to Faith:


The Qur’an does not deny that the crucifixion occurred, nor does it deny that Jesus was crucified. It says that the Jews did not crucify Him. Further, if Mohammed truly believed that Jesus was not crucified, then given the significance of such a claim, it would certainly have been supported elsewhere in the Qur’an as his other contentious claims have been. However, it does not appear to be.

There is no doubt that the verse can be interpreted to mean that Jesus was not crucified. However, only if the assumption that He was not crucified is supported elsewhere in the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville

There we go again !!!


First:

we have 2 Quranic verse one shows that Jesus never been crucified ,and Allah ended his course of life on earth peacefully.
[004:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

another affirms that Jews failed to hurt Jesus by any mean.



[005:110] (That day) Allah will say, “Oh Jesus, son of Mary! Recall the favors I bestowed upon you and your mother. I aided you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gibrael), and you spoke to mankind as an infant, and also as an adult. I taught you the art of writing, and the insight; and the Torah and the Gospel. You shaped clay into the likeness of a bird, and as you breathed into it, by My leave it turned into a real bird. You restored the sight of the born blind, and you cured lepers by My leave. You brought the dead back to life by My leave. (Remember also that) I restrained the children of Israel and kept them from (hurting) you. (Although) you brought them the clear incontrovertible proofs, yet the disbelievers among them (dismissed all the proofs and) said, “This is nothing but evident magic!”


If God kept The Jews from hurting Jews,and let the Romans crucify him,what kind of favor he will remind Jesus of?!!!


second:

Have you ever heard of the saying: (The burden of proof lies on him who alledges)?

you alledged a Roman crucifiction to the Quranic Jesus,so it would be logical for you to support that with a Quranic verse ,tells that.
and I by no mean,is obligged to provide you the opposite..

the burden of proof is on your shoulder ,my friend,cause you who assert.

peace

 

[Walter]

Hi Back to Faith:

Very good. You have provided one verse to support the claim that Jesus was not crucified. Now let us examine this verse in its context.

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Now the instructive part of this verse relevant to our discussion is: “And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

When did God restrain the Children of Israel? “I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs”

What were the clear signs? “and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.”

What was the Jews’ response? “and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

Therefore, the context for this verse is when Jesus was healing others during His ministry, not when he was being crucified. Therefore this verse does not support the claim that Jesus was not crucified.

You asked me to provide proof that Jesus was crucified. Well here it is.

1. The Jewish historian Josephus stated in AD 93 that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
2. The Roman historian Tacitus stated in AD 116 that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
3. The Gospels state that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
4. The Qur’an does not state that Jesus was not crucified. But it does say that Muslims are to believe the Books that came before, which do state that Jesus was crucified.

Since 4:157 does not state that Jesus was not crucified, only that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, then it can be implied that Jesus was crucified only if there were corroborating verses from the Qur’an. We have found none.

Now, to accept that Jesus was crucified is in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, with recorded history, and with the Books that came before. If you wish to make the assumption that Jesus was not crucified, then it is you my friend (and I mean that sincerely) that must provide some proof, since there is no support for this assertion in the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you for the additional information. However, I would like to limit the evidence to what is stated in the Qur’an. Regarding Jesus’ crucifixion, please see my response to Back to Faith above.

Jesus’ divinity and the trinity are additional contentious issues that can easily be resolved. However, it requires a willingness to look at another perspective. It is possible that the Bible and the Qur’an are both correct, just like with this contentious issue of Jesus’ crucifixion. Unfortunately for 1,300 years, our religious leaders have kept us apart with their opinions.

History has shown us that for thousands of years, people have believed opinions that were later found to be incorrect. If history has taught us anything, it is that we must not be afraid to re-examine the evidence, for in so doing, we can either reinforce our beliefs, or we can modify them so that they are more accurate and relevant.

When I turned 40 years old, I decided that from henceforth, I had to be convinced about everything that I believed and that I would always be honest with my intellect when doing so. I have decided that if the colour looks blue to me, then I would not simply agree to call it red just because an authority, a scholar, said that it was red. Let the scholar convince me that it is red without me having to be dishonest with myself.

When I read the Qur’an, I did not see much conflict with Christianity, and I realised that Muslims who followed the Qur’an had to be my brothers and sisters. It was clear from my reading of the Qur’an and knowledge of the Books that came before that Jesus was crucified and was raised by God. Nothing in the Qur’an disputed this.

I look forward to your comments on my response to Back to Faith.

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi Grenville.


I've explained the keypoints here;

It's not on my part to find another interpretation, since you're contradicting all the classical scholars of our religion, and i'm sure that none of them have ever come up with the conclusion that you've stated.


Why do i say this? Because if someone is to say that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) died - then they are saying that a person can return back to this world when this is not the case in Islam. Once someone dies/tastes death, they move on to the Barzakh [the life in between this life and the life of the hereafter] - so if Jesus son of Mary was to die, he wouldn't be able to return back to this world, and therefore he wouldn't be the Christ/Messiah. Since it's only the Christ/Messiah who will fight and defeat the Anti-Christ.

So if you disagree, that's your choice. However, please do not claim that the Qur'an claims something when there is no proof for that at all from our Islamic sources. Thankyou.




Regards.

 

[back_to_faith]

You asked me to provide proof that Jesus was crucified. Well here it is.

1. The Jewish historian Josephus stated in AD 93 that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
2. The Roman historian Tacitus stated in AD 116 that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
3. The Gospels state that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.

Do you remember my Question?

you alledged a Roman crucifiction to the Quranic Jesus,so it would be logical for you to support that with a Quranic verse ...

to be continued

 

[back_to_faith]

Hi Back to Faith:

Very good. You have provided one verse to support the claim that Jesus was not crucified. Now let us examine this verse in its context.

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Now the instructive part of this verse relevant to our discussion

No my friend ,the part of this verse is so relevant to our discussion,

what was the Jesus's story lines in the verse?

1-He was strengthened with the holy spirit from the very beginning which enabled him to,1-speak in childhood,learn the book and the wisdom,to berform miracles.

2-the Jews after he showed them the clear Signs, the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

3- They planned to kill him him..

what you suggested , according to your explanation to the verse:


1-Jesus showed the Jews the miracle of ,healing those who born blind, and the lepers, raising the deads ...all that in one occasion without a time that seperate them all,and they tried to Hurt him in the same day !!!!


How pathetic !!!

any simple reading to the text would show the time gaps between such things.!!

peace

 

[back_to_faith]

Since 4:157 does not state that Jesus was not crucified, only that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, then it can be implied that Jesus was crucified only if there were corroborating verses from the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville

correction:

Since 4:157 does state that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews, , then it can be implied that Jesus wasn't crucified by anyone else as long as we have no Quranic verse for such claim.


and again What kind of a favor Allah will remind his beloved prophet of,
If he saved him from the Jews and let him to the Romans to kill him ?????!!!!!

 

[Walter]

Hi Qatada:

You noted two things.

1. That my interpretation is not consistent with that of Islamic classical scholars.
2. That if Jesus was crucified, then He could not return to judge the works as the Messiah.

I will deal with both of your concerns.

1. Classical Scholars’ Infallibility?

As I explained to Purest Ambrosia, history has taught us that men are fallible, and that evidence can be misinterpreted resulting in persons being misguided for thousands of years. I refuse to be one of those misguided persons. If the colour looks blue to me, then I refuse to call it red just because someone tells me that it is red. The scholar should be able to explain to me his/her interpretation of the evidence. So far, I am not convinced.

Qatada, we have both shared our opinions as we examined the interpretation of one of the most contentious verses in the Qur’an. However, while I have left the comfort of my opinion and ventured over to your side to look at the verse from your perspective in order to investigate its merit, you are not willing to reciprocate. You noted that you preferred to simply accept the interpretation of Islamic scholars rather than examine the verse for yourself. I hope that you will reconsider.

2. Islamic Tradition’s Infallibility?

Is the evidence for this belief in the Qur’an, or is this an Islamic tradition? If the evidence is from the Qur’an, then please provide it.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Back to Faith:

I will deal with each of your concerns.

1. Verse 5:110

I stated the following:

Therefore, the context for this verse is when Jesus was healing others during His ministry, not when he was being crucified. Therefore this verse does not support the claim that Jesus was not crucified.

You misinterpreted this to mean:

Jesus showed the Jews the miracle of ,healing those who born blind, and the lepers, raising the deads ...all that in one occasion without a time that seperate them all, and they tried to Hurt him in the same day !!!!

Please note that I gave no other time reference except to state that the miracles occurred “during His ministry”, which was about 3 years duration. I never stated or implied that they occurred over 1 day. Now there is ample evidence from the Gospels where every time that Jesus did a miracle that the Jewish leaders did not approve, they tried to kill Him. They actually tried to throw Him off of a cliff, but the scriptures note that He walked right through them. Therefore this verse is not relevant to the assertion that Jesus was not crucified.

2. Verse 4:157

You noted:

and again What kind of a favor Allah will remind his beloved prophet of, If he saved him from the Jews and let him to the Romans to kill him ?????!!!!!

Your error here is that you are linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 when they are speaking of different events. Verse 4:157 addresses Jesus’ crucifixion at the end of His earthly ministry, while verse 5:110 addresses Jesus’ miracles during His earthly ministry.

3. You queried:

Do you remember my Question? you alledged a Roman crucifiction to the Quranic Jesus,so it would be logical for you to support that with a Quranic verse ...

This is clearly a misunderstanding. You seem to have entered the debate at the end. During the debate, we were looking for Biblical evidence that Jesus was crucified by the Romans. This was settled. When I stated that Jesus was crucified, not by the Jews as the Qur’an rightly states, but by the Romans, I should have added “as the Bible states “, for the benefit of persons who may have entered the debate without reading the previous posts.

Regards,
Grenville