A question for Atheists if there are any on this forum ?

[truthseeker63]

Do you think that Atheists fear death based on the Atheists I have known the answer is yes because their view of death is that the person has never been born in the first place or like before birth unless one believes we existed before our births which Atheists don't believe. I have a Atheist say that we are lucky to be alive since there are many people who are never going to die because they are never going to be born it is Richard Dawkins who said this. If there are any Atheists on this forum I would like to ask you how you deal with the belief that when you die you lose your identity as a person since you don't believe in God or in life after death and you believe there is only this material world. Atheists fear that they could die at any minute from anything or from any reason. Atheists believe death is like we had never lived in the first place in other words you lose your and have lost your Individual Identity once you die.

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.
Mark Twain - Fear - Death

http://www.woopidoo.com/business_quotes/authors/mark-twain/index.htm

Richard Dawkins - Poetic Atheism

This is an excerpt from the documentary 'The Root of All Evil?'. Some parts are originally from the book 'Unweaving The Rainbow' by Richard Dawkins.

...It's all music to my ears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKam7UNN-2E

Is Death a state like we had never been born ?

Is Death a state like we had never been born ?

Yes, you were non-existent for many billions of years before you were born, and you will be non-existent for many billions of years after you die. It's not so bad though, you didn't mind it before you were born, did you?

Yes, the state of being dead, as far as consciousness goes, is the same as if you never were born, or before you were born.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...hcfKM8cjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20091208232859AAANpDD

http://books.google.com/books?id=yq...ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dinosaurs&f=false

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9666.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsmorals/a/FearDeath.htm

Atheists views on the afterlife


Since the bodily structures become destroyed and those biological processes cease, there will be nothing left to support the consciousness of oneself. Therefore it will be like not existing. (what we were before we were born)

http://www.squidoo.com/are-heaven-and-hell-just-metaphors

 

[truthseeker63]

Are there any Atheists on this forum ?

 

[جوري]

Are there any Atheists on this forum ?

the moment of truth comes with death.. anyone can claim they're not scared of death.. the reality however exists on people's death bed...

peace

 

[Seventytwo]

Hi -

I'm new here, but I'm not new to the forum format or religious debate - although I suppose I should post more about myself in the introductions forum!

Anyway, the "atheist group" is not really a group. It is more of a remainder of those people who just don't believe in a god. As such, there is a wide variety of view points and opinions among atheists, so grouping their ideals together is a very hard thing to do. In many cases the only thing atheists have in common is their lack of a belief in god. That's probably an important first point to understand about atheists...

As an atheist, however, I can say that my personal opinion about death is comes more from what I value about life. I figure that I have about 80 years (if i'm lucky...) to spend on this planet, enjoying life, and the people around me, and then I will die. This prompts me to really take a strong look at how I am going to spend my years and what my effect on this world, and on humanity, and on the people I love, will be.

I could certainly choose to be a hedonistic person and try to reap as much pleasure out of every moment as possible, but that generally involves causing harm to others. I don't want to inflict harm or pain on others, because I wouldn't want that to happen to me. So, I choose to try to do as much good as possible - my end goal is to contribute to humanity and be a good, honest, loving person to those around me. If I can look back on my life and honestly say that I have done that, I will be happy when I die.

As far as death itself is concerned... I have no idea what that will be like. I don't believe I will experience anything after death, nor do I believe that my "soul" or "spirit" will live on in some kind of other world. I think that my ability to experience the world will cease; my thoughts and consciousness will cease, and the only part of me that will "live" on will be the memories of me in the minds of the people who knew me. This complete and utter nothingness is something that is very hard to think about - we're all so used to being awake and experiencing the world every day that to not be doing that seems unreasonable. I really can't imagine going to sleep and never waking up... never being able to access my thoughts or memories, or not even having the capacity to TRY to do those things.

But the quotes you mentioned make a lot of sense to me... I think what they are trying to say is that their idea of death equals a non-existent state. Before we were all born, our minds did not exist. We were unable to experience, unable to think, or remember, or love or hate. Our minds just did not exist. I think the point they are trying to make is that when we die, we return to the same non-existent state. Not that we were "dead" before we were born, but just that we weren't alive to do any kind of experiencing, and after we die, we can't do any experiencing either. So, if you can imagine what it was like before you were born - ie, nothing... - that is what an atheist (more or less) imagines what death is like.

-72

 

[Argamemnon]

the moment of truth comes with death.. anyone can claim they're not scared of death.. the reality however exists on people's death bed...

peace

My father had an atheist Greek colleague years ago who used to "mock" him for believing in Alllah (swt). One day our atheist friend fell seriously ill and kept screaming "God please help me" till he died... his wife told my father.

 

[Pygoscelis]

From the point of view of a materialist atheist (one who not only doesn't believe in Gods but also doesn't believe in reincarnation or an afterlife) there is literally nothing to fear from death, because death is literally nothing. The pain of dying on the other hand is something most of us fear, and most of us do feel bad or even guilty those we'll leave behind when we die if they depend on us in any manner (such as our children etc). But I don't think these kinds of fears are in any way unique to or resulting from one's atheism. I think many if not most religious people have these fears too.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Seventytwo, welcome to the forum. You're in for a fun ride.

 

[truthseeker63]

Im also saying that Atheism offers no hope for the future.

 

[Seventytwo]

Im also saying that Atheism offers no hope for the future.

Do you mean from that standpoint that religion seems to offer hope for the future because it offers the existence of an afterlife? In that regard, I guess atheism does not offer hope, because once you're dead, you're dead. However, I have an interest in leaving this place a bit better than I found it so that other people can have a chance to enjoy a lifetime... In that regard, I am very invested in the future. I want my future life to be happy and comfortable (hence why I am working my tail off to get a good degree in college instead of partying and doing cocaine like a lot of other college kids do), and I also want future human generations to have a nice place to live and to be prosperous.

These thoughts weren't inspired by a higher power... I just want it to be like that, because that's what I would wish for from others.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Do you mean from that standpoint that religion seems to offer hope for the future because it offers the existence of an afterlife? In that regard, I guess atheism does not offer hope, because once you're dead, you're dead. However, I have an interest in leaving this place a bit better than I found it so that other people can have a chance to enjoy a lifetime... In that regard, I am very invested in the future. I want my future life to be happy and comfortable (hence why I am working my tail off to get a good degree in college instead of partying and doing cocaine like a lot of other college kids do), and I also want future human generations to have a nice place to live and to be prosperous.

These thoughts weren't inspired by a higher power... I just want it to be like that, because that's what I would wish for from others.

so you have conditioned your mind into thinking that death is also "happy?" Cuz death is inevitable. If death is a unhappy ending, then you cant ever have a happy/comfortable life, as death is the ultimate ending. However, if you have made your mind to believe that death is a happy ending then I can see why you say that you can live a happy life, which will be eventually taken over by a "happy" ending. So basically, its your subjective perception of making death appear as a "happy" ending.

 

[جوري]

I think many if not most religious people have these fears too.

The reality and the order of fears toward the end of life include a host of thing but number one on that list according to papers in ethics is
1- fear of abandonment and loss of dignity as one loses control over their body function..

it is true however that most people of sound mind fear the unknown, however those who have religious beliefs tend to fare better both in terms of healing and terms concession to the inevitable!

I don't think that, having peace toward end of life events is enough an incentive to embrace religion.. but I have been enough death to know that atheists aren't at peace with 'non-existence' as they allege when they're alive...

all the best

 

[جوري]

Patients commonly face issues such as isolation and loneliness, fear and anxiety, being a burden on loved ones, a sense of loss of control and vulnerability, diminished self-esteem associated with inability to perform normal roles, worries about the future of dependents, adaptation to disfigurement, unrecognized or untreated depression, wishes for a hastened death, economic pressures, and existential or spiritual crises. For the universal crises of dying, death, and loss, deep feelings and strong beliefs about the nature of good psychosocial care are common, but surprisingly little research has been conducted, and few interventions have been examined systematically. In general, successful psychosocial interventions promote quality of life without influencing survival.2 Social connectedness and a related concept-maintaining a sense of a valuable self despite the alterations in functioning attendant to the illness-have emerged as important factors in how patients cope with dying. For some families, a terminal illness allows for greater cohesion and support; for others, it accentuates tensions and promotes distancing.

Dying patients experience considerable isolation and harbor many concerns that may not be shared with family members. An attentive physician or other member of the health care team can counter this loneliness and provide valued support through careful listening and empathy. Key interventions include combating isolation and identifying important goals by offering opportunities for open communication about all aspects of the illness, conveying nonabandonment, facilitating life review, identifying and addressing fears and worries, providing appropriate reassurance, recognizing and treating depression, helping adults attend to the special needs of younger children affected by the illness, showing equanimity and honesty in the face of frightening events, promoting reconciliation and forgiveness, and attending to the possibilities of personal growth in the face of dying. Consultation with a mental health clinician should be considered for selected patients, especially when there is evidence of major psychosocial dysfunction, when there is a history of psychiatric problems or dysfunctional relationships, or when patients simply seek more time and expertise in exploring their coping with the crisis of dying.
Taken from Cecil Textbook of Medicine by Goldman.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Patients commonly face issues such as isolation and loneliness, fear and anxiety, being a burden on loved ones, a sense of loss of control and vulnerability, diminished self-esteem associated with inability to perform normal roles, worries about the future of dependents, adaptation to disfigurement, unrecognized or untreated depression, wishes for a hastened death, economic pressures, and existential or spiritual crises. For the universal crises of dying, death, and loss, deep feelings and strong beliefs about the nature of good psychosocial care are common, but surprisingly little research has been conducted, and few interventions have been examined systematically. In general, successful psychosocial interventions promote quality of life without influencing survival.2 Social connectedness and a related concept-maintaining a sense of a valuable self despite the alterations in functioning attendant to the illness-have emerged as important factors in how patients cope with dying. For some families, a terminal illness allows for greater cohesion and support; for others, it accentuates tensions and promotes distancing.

Dying patients experience considerable isolation and harbor many concerns that may not be shared with family members. An attentive physician or other member of the health care team can counter this loneliness and provide valued support through careful listening and empathy. Key interventions include combating isolation and identifying important goals by offering opportunities for open communication about all aspects of the illness, conveying nonabandonment, facilitating life review, identifying and addressing fears and worries, providing appropriate reassurance, recognizing and treating depression, helping adults attend to the special needs of younger children affected by the illness, showing equanimity and honesty in the face of frightening events, promoting reconciliation and forgiveness, and attending to the possibilities of personal growth in the face of dying. Consultation with a mental health clinician should be considered for selected patients, especially when there is evidence of major psychosocial dysfunction, when there is a history of psychiatric problems or dysfunctional relationships, or when patients simply seek more time and expertise in exploring their coping with the crisis of dying.
Taken from Cecil Textbook of Medicine by Goldman.

seems to be theoretical jargon and mumbo jumbo, not applicable practically. When a friend's father was dying of colon cancer ... I didnt see physicians spend much of the time trying to alleviate psychosocial depressions he had, the only concern was how to minimize pain via palliative care and how to make the patient feel comfortable in the last moments, it very well could be that the patient was was not desiring this specific sort of care but rather something different, as his questions were of philosophical nature "why me and why cant you take death away from me" and not "why dont you take my pain away while I die ..."

what if a dying patient wishes the physician spends all the time by sitting his bedside listening to his sorrows ..... this could certainly improve the quality of life, of whatever is left, of this patient if that was the only concern they had while dying ... but thats not possible for a physician to do ... so I dont see how physicians can meet the needs of all dying patients ....

 

[جوري]

seems to be theoretical stuff, not applicable practically.

what if a dying patient wishes the physician spends all the time by sitting his bedside listening to his sorrows ..... this could certainly improve the quality of life, of whatever is left, of this patient if that was the only concern they had while dying ... but thats not possible for a physician to do ... so I dont see how physicians can meet the needs of all dying patients ....

The physicians role is a facilitator!
so this is the portion on your CCS where you'd call for a social services consult as well a psychiatric consult, and of course be compassionate and understanding of your patients' needs. It is foolish to presume that a patient wishes to spend his last hours with a doctor rather than his family but it is indeed important for a physician if his/her job means more than simply cashing in on death to act as humanely as possible..

I hope you're not blindsided by what medicine is actually all about.. you win some battles and you'll lose many, but it would be a shame to lose out on human relations!

 

[Seventytwo]

so you have conditioned your mind into thinking that death is also "happy?" Cuz death is inevitable. If death is a unhappy ending, then you cant ever have a happy/comfortable life, as death is the ultimate ending. However, if you have made your mind to believe that death is a happy ending then I can see why you say that you can live a happy life, which will be eventually taken over by a "happy" ending. So basically, its your subjective perception of making death appear as a "happy" ending.

You must have misread something. I never said anything about death being happy or not. In my post I was expressing my desire to be happy throughout the remainder of my LIFE.

I guess I really don't know what your point was with your post... But, 1) you were addressing something I didn't actually talk about, and 2) I'm not sure what your point is about death being happy vs. unhappy. Could you elaborate or clarify?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.
Mark Twain - Fear - Death

lol i keep thinking about what happens to disbelievers after death and the word "inconvenience" makes me laugh, it really does.





How is it possible for any atheist to not reflect over God during calamities/illnesses and death.

Even if to just reaffirm their atheistic beliefs its very hard to not ponder over a supernatural authority during such times.


the reason is its during those times you realize that human beings have such limited control over what happens and that there must be more then coincidence at hand.


its a wonder to me it is

 

[Seventytwo]

Even if to just reaffirm their atheistic beliefs its very hard to not ponder over a supernatural authority during such times.


the reason is its during those times you realize that human beings have such limited control over what happens and that there must be more then coincidence at hand.


its a wonder to me it is

I think most atheists will tell you that they do (or have) thought seriously about god at many points in their lives. I have tried to consider what it would be like for there to be a god and have tried to view the world through the lens of a god existing, but I just can't resolve some of the issues I have with it (many threads worth of discussion there...).

Yeah, I agree the world is way bigger than each of us, and we have little control over things. But to me, that doesn't imply a higher power. "Coincidence" and "randomness" are essentially math-related terms. They are very easily misconstrued when it comes to talking about everyday events. Not only that, but human beings are notoriously bad at judging random things and are notoriously good at finding "coincidences" where there really weren't any....

 

[CosmicPathos]

You must have misread something. I never said anything about death being happy or not. In my post I was expressing my desire to be happy throughout the remainder of my LIFE.

I guess I really don't know what your point was with your post... But, 1) you were addressing something I didn't actually talk about, and 2) I'm not sure what your point is about death being happy vs. unhappy. Could you elaborate or clarify?

Certainly I must have misread something, an atheist is always right? Right?

You were barking, as all atheists do, that you are trying to live a happy life. The very fact of you thinking that you can try to live a "happy life" implies that you have, in your mind, tried hard to make death something trivial. If it was not the case, youd be going through existentialist crises and nihilism and melancholy and could never make sense of your existence while holding to your thoughts that God didnt exist, in such case your whole life would be spent in finding answers to painful questions while being extremely depressed, sad, melancholic due to not being able to make sense of it all (the fact that you think youd have a happy life in such a case makes me think you are dishonest in trying to find answers and dishonest with realizing life what it would be if God really didnt exist: a painful journey to endure every single second for the non-existence that lied ahead and was approaching at an astronomical rate as years of life passed by)... but of course atheists are not that sincere to find answers.

 

[CosmicPathos]

The physicians role is a facilitator!
so this is the portion on your CCS where you'd call for a social services consult as well a psychiatric consult, and of course be compassionate and understanding of your patients' needs. It is foolish to presume that a patient wishes to spend his last hours with a doctor rather than his family but it is indeed important for a physician if his/her job means more than simply cashing in on death to act as humanely as possible..

I hope you're not blindsided by what medicine is actually all about.. you win some battles and you'll lose many, but it would be a shame to lose out on human relations!

that is true but that role/responsibility exists in our minds as physicians, not necessarily the patient? Again, it depends on the personal nature of the patient, but some patients believe that the keys to the immortal life are in the hands of their physician, not the nurses, not the Father from the prayer room, not the social worker. ...

It seems to be a very subjective thing to evaluate how can a dying patient's quality of life be improved, I guess the only best marker is to ask the patient what he wants and what the patient wants is not always provided/or could be provided due to the concepts of social justice. Or sometimes patient wants things which a physician is personally not comfortable to do due to religious reasons (asking a patient to sign DNR as a Muslim doctor). etc etc But i guess then that necessitates transfer of care to a physician who can meet those need.

w salam

 

[جوري]

that is true but that role/responsibility exists in our minds as physicians, not necessarily the patient? Again, it depends on the personal nature of the patient, but some patients believe that the keys to the immortal life are in the hands of their physician, not the nurses, not the Father from the prayer room, not the social worker. ... It seems to be a very subjective thing to evaluate how can a dying patient's quality of life be improved, I guess the only best marker is to ask the patient what he wants and what the patient wants is not always provided/or could be provided due to the concepts of social justice. w salam

I'll wait until you have some clinical experience =)