A Question for Atheists

[glo]

Great thread, Yanoorah!

Can I ask a question for our atheist members too?

Even if you don't believe that there is a deity out there who hears and answers prayers, do you think there is a benefit or purpose in praying? If yes, what?

(I ask because my husband sometimes comes to our breakfast and prayer at church, and we have had conversations around what he makes of the prayer part [He has no problem with the breakfast part! ])

 

[GuestFellow]

Knock Knock!

Hello?

Greetings,


Friends and family.

No, I can't say I do. I can still wish for things if I want, though.

Peace

It depends on the situation. For example, an atheist is suffering from depression has friends, family and the medical profession to turn to.

However, how would an atheist react to a situation where it is impossible to receive any help. For example, the police arrested an atheist, tortured him for months, does not know why he has been arrested or the evidence against him, does not have any access to legal advice and does not know when he will be put on trial.

^ I highly doubt an atheist would turn to their friends and family for help in that situation after being locked up for months. They might be thinking about them though.

I have heard of cases people crying for their mom when they are in a immediate dangerous situation, like getting stabbed to death...

 

[glo]

However, how would an atheist react to a situation where it is impossible to receive any help. For example, the police arrested an atheist, tortured him for months, does not know why he has been arrested or the evidence against him, does not have any access to legal advice and does not know when he will be put on trial.

I am reminded of the movie 'Touching the Void', which is based on the true story of Joe Simpson, recounting his and Simon Yates's disastrous and nearly fatal climb of the 6,344-metre (20,813 foot) Siula Grande in the Peruvian Andes in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touching_the_Void

In the mid-80's two young climbers attempted to reach the summit of Siula Grande in Peru; a feat that had previously been attempted but never achieved. With an extra man looking after base camp, Simon and Joe set off to scale the mount in one long push over several days. The peak is reached, however on the descent Joe falls and breaks his leg. Despite what it means, the two continue with Simon letting Joe out on a rope for 300 meters, then descending to join him and so on. However when Joe goes out over an overhang with no way of climbing back up, Simon makes the decision to cut the rope. Joe falls into a crevice and Simon, assuming him dead, continues back down. Joe however survives the fall and was lucky to hit a ledge in the crevice. This is the story of how he got back down.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379557/

The following youtube clip shows parts of the film and an interview of the two climbers.
Joe Simpson did not believe in God. He went through periods of despair, but in the end came to the conclusion that nobody - not people and not God were going to help him. What gave him the strength to continue despite the pain, hunger and cold was not a belief in God but the conviction that the only person he could rely on was he himself.

The youtube clip is 10 minutes long. At 03:00 Simpson talks about his thoughts with regards to God.
He fell into the cave an atheist and crawled out an atheist ...

 

[Gator]

I think what yanoorah's meant was a situation where you have no friends or family to turn to.

Then I'd just have myself.

I find these two statements rather perplexing.
If you know exactly that there is absolutely nothing out there to hear and/grant your wish/pray, whats the point of making the wish/pray?
Doesn't this mean that, buried deep inside (along with your "moral compass", as a certain other atheist said in another thread), there is possibly some acknowledgement for some sort of higher authority that can affect the outcome of things?

Let me clarify. I do not pray.

I was just pointing out the fact that I had the freedom to pray/wish if i wanted. That would be voicing what I would like to have happen to no particular subject without the expectation that some power make it happen.

Thanks.

 

[Gator]

Great video Glo!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Great thread, Yanoorah!

Can I ask a question for our atheist members too?

Even if you don't believe that there is a deity out there who hears and answers prayers, do you think there is a benefit or purpose in praying? If yes, what?

For those who believe in it, yes. It doesn't have to be true. You just have to believe it is. This is the power of the placebo effect, which is more powerful than most give it credit for.

 

[Ramadhan]

This is the power of the placebo effect, which is more powerful than most give it credit for.

Do you believe in placebo effect?

 

[Pygoscelis]

I just stressed the significance and power of the placebo effect and now you ask me if I believe it exists? Sometimes I wonder if you have difficulty with the english language.

 

[Ramadhan]

Sometimes I wonder if english is your first language.

Well, now that you ask, english is either my 3rd/4th language.
I assume english is your first, no?

I just stressed the significance and power of the placebo effect and now you ask me if I believe it exists?

Just make sure. you never know with atheists. Just a few posts before all of you claim to have made wish while not believing it works.

So, how does this placebo effect work?

 

[glo]

Do you believe in placebo effect?

The effectiveness of the placebo effect has been well documented in medicine.

 

[Ramadhan]

The effectiveness of the placebo effect has been well documented in medicine.

Thats not what I ask, glo.
I asked what actually placebo effect is and its mechanism.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Check out this link that gives some explanation of current theories about the Placebo Effect:

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/TreatmentTypes/placebo-effect

The Placebo Effect is a fascinating phenomenon and just one of many ways that the mind and body interact. The mind IS the activity of the brain (which is part of the body), so this should be no surprise. Your mind is what causes your body to release certain endorphins (which make you feel better, for a time), or others which make you ready to eat, or fight, or be intimate. It can even make you feel pain in non-existing phantom limbs after an amputation. Studies on mirror neurons have shown such people to feel pain if they trick themselves into thinking their (non-existing) arm is touched, such as when putting the other arm in front of a mirror. Brain damage to different areas of the brain can cause major changes in peoples' personalities, and even completely change them. And research has shown that split brain patients ca literally have the right side of their brain literally not know what the left is doing and each can make decisions that conflict, and again drugs can effect this. "near death experience", seeing the light and all that, can be replicated in the lab with certain (non life-threatening) drugs as well. Pretty interesting stuff for sure!

The illusion that the body and mind (or "soul") are two different and separate things is a concept that is breaking down more and more each day.

 

[Ramadhan]

Check out this link that gives some explanation of current theories about the Placebo Effect:

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Trea...placebo-effect

The Placebo Effect is a fascinating phenomenon and just one of many ways that the mind and body interact. The mind IS the activity of the brain (which is part of the body), so this should be no surprise. Your mind is what causes your body to release certain endorphins (which make you feel better, for a time), or others which make you ready to eat, or fight, or be intimate. It can even make you feel pain in non-existing phantom limbs after an amputation. Studies on mirror neurons have shown such people to feel pain if they trick themselves into thinking their (non-existing) arm is touched, such as when putting the other arm in front of a mirror. Brain damage to different areas of the brain can cause major changes in peoples' personalities, and even completely change them. And research has shown that split brain patients ca literally have the right side of their brain literally not know what the left is doing and each can make decisions that conflict, and again drugs can effect this. "near death experience", seeing the light and all that, can be replicated in the lab with certain (non life-threatening) drugs as well. Pretty interesting stuff for sure!

This is fine and dandy if it only explains effects on one's own body/medicinal effects. But even then, what you call "explanation" does not actually even explain the mechanism of placebo effect. It only gives descriptions of placebo affect.
Even the website conceded that it does not know how it actually works: Although we may not know exactly how it works, the idea that the mind can affect the body has been around for years and is well-proven in certain situations.

In any case, this does not anywhere close to cover the aspects of our original discussions about effects of prayers.

FYI, people not only pray to cure their own illnesses, but for infinite reasons ranging from the well-being of their loved ones to getting good grades in exams, to relief from debts.

So pray tell us (pun fully intended), How does placebo effect work on those cases?

The illusion that the body and mind (or "soul") are two different and separate things is a concept that is breaking down more and more each day.

mind and soul are different things.

 

[aamirsaab]

...FYI, people not only pray to cure their own illnesses, but for infinite reasons ranging from the well-being of their loved ones to getting good grades in exams, to relief from debts.
..

I'd like to add on to naidamar's post here in regards to prayer and it's effect. Prayer isn't just for the mind/brain; it also acts as a form of exercise for the entire body. Every movement in the Islamic prayer has a reason beyond mere ritual. Whilst it is important to have khushoo or an appropriate mental state when praying, the actions also play a pivotal role. You can't pray your 1 rakah [unit of prayer] for fajr and say yeah man, I totally prayed my fajr namaz! Well, technically you can, but it's not going to count as a prayer. Not in the eyes of God and certainly not for your body. There are even reasons why we are to pray X units of prayer for each particular namaz.

Now, if the act of prayer was merely a placebo, there would be no reason for any actions or units of prayer. That would be more along the lines of meditation which is something different.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Now, if the act of prayer was merely a placebo, there would be no reason for any actions or units of prayer. That would be more along the lines of meditation which is something different.

Or maybe not so different. In both you are altering your body/mind, one unknowingly and through expectation, and one intentionally. You may actually be doing something very similar in both cases.

 

[aamirsaab]

Or maybe not so different. In both you are altering your body/mind, one unknowingly and through expectation, and one intentionally. You may actually be doing something very similar in both cases.

The most you could say is there is a similarity in terms of the effect on mind (I don't know of any psychological studies done on the matter, but Chopra's work seems to connect the dots quite well).

But, meditation and the Islamic prayer are most certainly two different things. As I stated previously, there is a reason for all the actions in an Islamic prayer that are not present in meditation.

 

[Pygoscelis]

So pray tell us (pun fully intended), How does placebo effect work on those cases?

lol good pun! We don't know completely how placebo works yet (though theories that have some evidence are presented in that article). And the only way we're going to find out is by admitting that, and researching it, instead of saying something like "God did it" and ending our inquiry.

FYI, people not only pray to cure their own illnesses, but for infinite reasons ranging from the well-being of their loved ones to getting good grades in exams, to relief from debts.

This reminds me of people who pray to win a football game or thank God for winning an Acadey Award. Notice that the same people never seem to blame God for losing them that football game or for not being nominated. All the credit and none of the blame. Pretty good deal for God I'd say. It also seems to undercut the efforts of peopel who actually do deserve thanks. Don't thank God for winning that football game, thank your team mates, your coach, your fans, your spouses, etc.

Actually it seems awfully self centred and more than a little arrogant to think that the creator of the whole universe and most powerful being within it will go out of his/her/its way to get you an "A" on that next exam paper. It also seems rather callous to pray for this instead of say, ending world hunger or something like that.

I'd also add that these things people pray for and claim to get from God are all things that can happen without God. You never hear about God healing amputees. Why is that?

mind and soul are different things.

The claim that Mind and Body are different things is being eroded constantly by all those different areas of research I noted in the post above.

Now you say that Mind and Soul are different things. Let me ask you this then. If we can explain perception, personality, self awareness and decision making through biology, what is left to call the soul?

 

[Pygoscelis]

As I stated previously, there is a reason for all the actions in an Islamic prayer that are not present in meditation.

It makes a lot of sense. Movement of the body can effect the mind, just as the mind can effect the body.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

For those who believe in it, yes. It doesn't have to be true. You just have to believe it is. This is the power of the placebo effect, which is more powerful than most give it credit for.

Some years ago I suffered from a painful cough that lingered for a couple of months, it was really annoying, I should have seen a doctor, but being a man, I chose not to go. However it did get to the point when my wife made the appointment for me for the following day.

At that time, we did not go to church very often during the week, but the following day my wife said about going to church which we did, by coincidence it happened to be the feast day of Saint Blaise, the patron saint of healing for the throat, neither my wife nor I new about this feast day before we went to church. My throat was blessed during the service, and I said to myself, do I trust in this blessing to heal my cough, or should I still go to the doctors in the afternoon.

I phoned the doctor up, cancelled the appointment, and my cough went, some might say this was a coincidence, or it acted in the way a placebo might, I personally believe it was God responding to faith and trust.

Many Catholics might remember Saint Blaise's feast day because of the Blessing of the Throats that took place on this day. Two candles are blessed, held slightly open, and pressed against the throat as the blessing is said. Saint Blaise's protection of those with throat troubles apparently comes from a legend that a boy was brought to him who had a fishbone stuck in his throat. The boy was about to die when Saint Blaise healed him.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=28

in the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

Could be placebo. Could be coincidence. It was a cough, after all. Not an amputation. If you were blessed and then regrew an arm..... then I'd take notice

Would you have blamed God had your cold gotten worse? Did you blame God for giving you the cough in the first place? See how this is a one way thing? All the credit and none of the blame. I wish I had a job like this God's.

Also, noting that you are Christian, I wonder what the Muslims here think about your experience? Why should Eric get help from God instead of you guys, if Eric is praying to the wrong God or doing it in the wrong way?