A question for Atheists

[Al Sultan]

Assalamo alikum brothers and sisters,

I have been thinking about, how Atheists think this and that about our religion, and prophet, (delusional,madman, poet) you name it, and so on.

But, I have a question for Atheists.

What if, you were living at the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and you saw him and listened to him, that he has received a revelation from god, would you then believe? or still confront him? (Since I've seen many Atheists saying that they didn't see it happen so they don't believe it)

I don't want to debate, i just want to discuss, because if then you'll not believe now, would you believe if you had lived at the time of the prophet Mohammed? (PBUH)



Wa assalamo alikum wa rahmintullahi wa barakato.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Salaams,
I am not quite an atheist, but to answer your question, just seeing and listening to him would not be convincing evidence in and of itself, unless he accomplished before my eyes clear miracles and predicted unlikely things to come true in my lifetime (not 2000 years later).
A 'miracle' would be something like: guy who lost a leg in battle has a new one that grows back in place the following day.
Guy who is blind and who suddenly sees again doesn't count because that could simply be a case of hysteria.
A 'prediction' needs to be something like: tomorrow, there will be rainstorm in the Sahara desert that will hit at noon, and three lightening strikes will hit this tree.
There will be a bad storm in 1000 years and many people will be swept by the rain doesn't count because it is too nonspecific in time and actions.

 

[greenhill]

[MENTION=40164]fromelsewhere[/MENTION], so you need miracle(s) as proof? No miracles means no proof? or am I being too simplistic?


eace:

 

[Bosanac]

While I'm not an atheist, I think your question has a somewhat faulty premise.

It would obviously depend on how the conversation with the prophet pbuh went.

"Confronting" the prophet pbuh isn't necessarily a negative thing. It can be done in a mature and respectful manner. Through hadiths too we know plenty of people came to the prophet skeptical and he convinced them.

Like fromelsewhere said, people wanted to see something extraordinary to be convinced, perhaps even a prediction about an upcoming event, and not just a vague prediction that's supposed to happen long after they're not around to see it. And the prophet did just that.

 

[Al Sultan]

Hello, welcome to the forum brother

A 'prediction' needs to be something like

But he did predict many things, he predicted BEDOUINS will be competing with tall towers, (UAE and Saudi Arabia are in a competition to build the tallest building)

he predicted "there will come a time, when the worst of you will become leaders" I mean, Donald Trump?

He predicted ISIS I believe, but I haven't read the full article about it.


But OTHER than that, if he took you to his cave, and he shows you angel Gabriel (AS) and he talks to the prophet, about a revelation or just anything, would you then believe?

but I don't understand, how come his character doesn't prove that he's not truthful? I mean if you would look at the condition of Arabia, everybody was cruel, only little people were actually nice, but others were terrible, burying their daughters (something that was common at that time) I mean, isn't that an evidence of his prophethood?


also if you witnessed the split of the moon, would you believe? so you believe in miracles right? physical miracles?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If I had been living in the 7th century, I would have been relatively ignorant about the natural world and its processes, as everyone was then compared to modern people. Given that, there is every chance that I could have believed in a prophet like Muhammad (pbuh).

Peace

 

[Al Sultan]

Greetings,

If I had been living in the 7th century, I would have been relatively ignorant about the natural world and its processes, as everyone was then compared to modern people. Given that, there is every chance that I could have believed in a prophet like Muhammad (pbuh).

Peace

Hello sir Gibson,


So, you wouldn't think he's delusional ? And you would believe in the Quran ? So you would believe him ? surprising


But let's say in today's world, he comes, with the Quran from God,and tells us that he has received a revelation from God, would you then believe or not ? or would you still question him.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

So, you wouldn't think he's delusional ? And you would believe in the Quran ? So you would believe him ? surprising

I'm not saying I would necessarily believe in him in particular. It's difficult to know what criteria I would use in such circumstances to decide which prophet to follow, if any. However, given the fact that I would then be relatively ignorant compared to a modern person, my threshold of belief would be much lower, and so I would in all likelihood be more open to the possibility of following a prophet (any prophet) than I am now.

But let's say in today's world, he comes, with the Quran from God,and tells us that he has received a revelation from God, would you then believe or not ? or would you still question him.

It's unlikely I would believe him. I would regard him with the same scepticism that I hold for anyone who says they are receiving information via supernatural means.

Peace

 

[Al Sultan]

I would regard him with the same scepticism that I hold for anyone who says they are receiving information via supernatural means.

By the way, I forgot to mention, that, when the prophet comes, Arabia is the same as 2,000 years ago. All of Arabia, (KSA, UAE, Bahrain, Yemen, Oman, Qatar ) their main religion is Paganism, and they still bury their daughters just like back then, and they are barbaric just like back then, and then when he sends the message and change the entire of Arabia, what do you think about that?


Why? what do you want as proof that he received a revelation from a supernatural being?

And thanks for replying ! this thread was dying, until you came and saved it.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Lots of good discussion on this thread so far.
I like [MENTION=33553]ReckonerH[/MENTION]'s comment about "confronting" not necessarily being a bad thing. I think that a healthy dose of skepticism is always warranted when someone comes along claiming that they've received a revelation from a supernatural being because many people have been (and continue to be) led astray by false-prophets.

Now to answer [MENTION=39680]Al Sultan[/MENTION]'s, and also incidentally [MENTION=34923]greenhill[/MENTION]'s, question:

Hello, welcome to the forum brother

But he did predict many things, he predicted BEDOUINS will be competing with tall towers, (UAE and Saudi Arabia are in a competition to build the tallest building)

he predicted "there will come a time, when the worst of you will become leaders" I mean, Donald Trump?

He predicted ISIS I believe, but I haven't read the full article about it.

But OTHER than that, if he took you to his cave, and he shows you angel Gabriel (AS) and he talks to the prophet, about a revelation or just anything, would you then believe?

but I don't understand, how come his character doesn't prove that he's not truthful? I mean if you would look at the condition of Arabia, everybody was cruel, only little people were actually nice, but others were terrible, burying their daughters (something that was common at that time) I mean, isn't that an evidence of his prophethood?

also if you witnessed the split of the moon, would you believe? so you believe in miracles right? physical miracles?

Once again, the predictions were vague and not made within a given timeframe. So, I am not convinced. The part about angel Gabriel (AS), I wasn't there to witness it. The part about him being of good character and the people of Arabia being cruel at the time, that is what Islam claims, but there is not proof outside of Islam. Remember that there are always cruel people living around at any given time, and especially in those days when people were quite ignorant.

The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Qur'an, but I have not observed it. What I observe every night is a single moon, with no evidence of it having ever been split.
Personally, I am quite skeptic when people tell me that this and that happened but cannot offer any proof to back it up.

So in summary, for someone to convince me of their prophethood, they need to do more than being of simple 'good' character. They need to make clear predictions that are in no way vague (clear in terms of time, location, and the precise events that will happen), and they need to perform clear miracles that go beyond simple card tricks or levitation that any ordinary magician can do.

 

[Al Sultan]

Once again, the predictions were vague and not made within a given timeframe.

I dont see how the prophet predicted Bedouins competing with tall buildings is vague.
About the time frame,

The prophet Mohammed received these predictions from God, through Gabriel (AS) so, it was god's choice not to mention any timeframe, and the prophet predicted that the Dajjal will come, but he didn't say when he will come, so it was god's choice not to mention a timeframe.

Same as the day of judgement, God, and prophet Mohammed (PBUH) never said anything about the time, because the prophet wanted us to pray and do righteous deeds before the day comes, because if I tell my people ' the end of the world will come in 3000 years' and then in the future (lets say 2016) Some muslims will be like, '2000 more years to go' they wont do righteous deeds, they'll slack off, and be lazy.

The part about him being of good character and the people of Arabia being cruel at the time, that is what Islam claims, but there is not proof outside of Islam.

And there's no proof to prove that they didn't bury their daughters, which was a known thing and practiced by some other nations, and treat slaves bad (not to mention Islam is the first religion to speak against and and ban it) And do other barbaric things, there's no proof to prove they didn't happen, if they didn't happen, why did God mention it in the Quran?

Remember that there are always cruel people living around at any given time,

Sure there are, but burying daughters and being shameful of them, treating women like they are your properties, is more than cruel, this is why God speaks against it in the Quran, and God tells us in the Quran not to do these things, protect and feed our women, and respect them, dont bury our daughters, treat slaves as if they are our brothers/sisters, give them good education and good and clothes, you cant prove that the Arabs did all of this before the Quran came, they started doing this after the Quran came, because obviously their paganized religion doesn't speak about this.

The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Qur'an, but I have not observed it.

Same as the Black Plague, it did occur but I didn't see it happen, does that mean I have to say it didn't happen? just because I didn't see it?

with no evidence of it having ever been split.

The Quran says it was split, then came back into it's normal being, it is mentioned in the Quran.

There is a hadith by Abu Hurayra which is authentic, and it says he saw the splitting of the moon, you cant say 'theres no evidence' while the Quran talks about it, and there's a hadith which talks about it too, if you want physical proof then, cameras didn't exist at the time of Prophet Mohammed (PUBH) Sadly.

I am quite skeptic when people tell me that this and that happened but cannot offer any proof to back it up.

Strongest proof that it happened, it's mentioned in the Quran, if it wasn't mentioned, then it wasn't split, but if it was mentioned then it was split, if something didn't happen, no one would talk about it, if it did, people would, and God spoke about it in the Quran.

They need to make clear predictions that are in no way vague

I dont see how its vague that he predicted the Bedouins will be competing in tall towers, I dont see how that's vague.

I dont see how its vague when he says 'there will come a time when the worst of you will become leaders' yes, you can say Arab leaders, American leaders, Iranian leaders.

There are so many predictions made by Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and some of them were true, some of them are still not yet completed.

clear in terms of time, location, and the precise events that will happen)

Where did the Prophet (PBUH) get his predictions from? God, it's god's choice not to mention a location, and time, why? it's his choice, not ours, what matters that it happened.

and they need to perform clear miracles that go beyond simple card tricks or levitation that any ordinary magician can do.

[28:48] But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

[29:50] But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."

[11:12] Then would you possibly leave [out] some of what is revealed to you, or is your breast constrained by it because they say, "Why has there not been sent down to him a treasure or come with him an angel?" But you are only a warner. And Allah is Disposer of all things.

[29:51] And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.

[17:59] And nothing has prevented Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We send not the signs except as a warning

If Arab poets couldn't bring 10 verses/chapters like of the Quran, what would ?

The Quran isn't some simple 'card trick' as you say, if you read what it says, what it teaches, maybe then you might understand what it says, but either way, its the people's choice who want to change, not god's choice

 

[Scimitar]

Salaam bro Al Sultan,

Your questions seems like a good one but is faulty, I'll explain.

During the lifetime of the Prophet pbuh, in pre-Islamic Arabia, the predominant religion was paganism, after which you had Judaism and Christianity and Zoroastrianism as the popular monotheist faiths. These were pretty unpopular in Arabia. At the time, you had men who didn't believe in any God either - the atheists also existed in the time of the Prophet pbuh.

Some reverted to Islam. Others did not.

Same with the Christians and the Jews.

And the Zoroastrians.

Point I'm making is that, in the time of the Prophet pbuh - some who identified as atheist did not become Muslim.

Let's not forget, even some of the Prophet pbuh extended family did not become Muslim.

The problem with asking questions like this is that, they are "out of time". And thus, remain highly subjective and puruse a faulty line of questioning.

A better question would be, "if you was an atheist living in Arabia at the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, given what you know of the man and his struggles for justice, truth and belief - do you think you would have followed him?"

Scimi

 

[Al Sultan]

Salaam bro Al Sultan,

Salaam scimi bro

Your questions seems like a good one but is faulty

I'm not gonna lie, I felt like fixing my question but I couldn't think of it in any other way...

Zoroastrianism

I never heard of that religion, I heard it was a 'wanna be monotheistic' religion by some Islamic website..

if you was an atheist living in Arabia at the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, given what you know of the man and his struggles for justice, truth and belief - do you think you would have followed him?"

Ahh! you read my feelings mashallah, that was EXACTLY what I was thinking of, but I couldn't interpret it in words, I don't know why.

Anyway, thanks for 'explaining' my question, as I was kind of unsure and felt like there was something wrong in my question..

Assalamo alikum wa rahtmillahi wa barakato.

 

[Scimitar]

I never heard of that religion, I heard it was a 'wanna be monotheistic' religion by some Islamic website..

Zoroastrianism is traditionally Monotheist, but in the modern age has become Dualistic in theology and thus, dependent on what type of Zoroastrian you speak to, they will either be traditional Zoroastrians or modern day ones. There's a world of a difference between the two.

The Jews of ancient times recognised Zoroastrianism to be a monotheist faith but not descended from the Abrahamic faith traditions.

This is not a problem for me, as we know that Allah sent prophets and messengers to all communities and people's. The origin of Zoroastrianism goes back to approx 700 BCE but this is the latest date for it's fruition. According to some historians, Zoroastrianism goes back to around 1500-2000 BCE, so you can appreciate how according to this dating, the religion of Zoroastrianism, predates even the Abrahamic traditions.

Interesting isn't it?

Ahh! you read my feelings mashallah, that was EXACTLY what I was thinking of, but I couldn't interpret it in words, I don't know why.

Anyway, thanks for 'explaining' my question, as I was kind of unsure and felt like there was something wrong in my question..

Assalamo alikum wa rahtmillahi wa barakato.

Alhamdulillah, pleased to be of some help,

Walakum salaam wa rahmatullah

Scimi

 

[Al Sultan]

Zoroastrianism is traditionally Monotheist, but in the modern age has become Dualistic in theology and thus, dependent on what type of Zoroastrian you speak to, they will either be traditional Zoroastrians or modern day ones. There's a world of a difference between the two.

The Jews of ancient times recognised Zoroastrianism to be a monotheist faith but not descended from the Abrahamic faith traditions.

This is not a problem for me, as we know that Allah sent prophets and messengers to all communities and people's. The origin of Zoroastrianism goes back to approx 700 BCE but this is the latest date for it's fruition. According to some historians, Zoroastrianism goes back to around 1500-2000 BCE, so you can appreciate how according to this dating, the religion of Zoroastrianism, predates even the Abrahamic traditions.

Interesting isn't it ?

Scimi

indeed it is, is it true they pray 5 times a day like us ?

 

[Al Sultan]

I heard an anti Islamic website make a claim that Islam " borrowed" the 5 daily prayers from Zoroastrianism

 

[Scimitar]

indeed it is, is it true they pray 5 times a day like us ?

Yes, five times a day, but not like us. They have different rituals.

Did you know that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh companion Salman al Farsi RA, was a Zoroastrian before he reverted to Islam?

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

I heard an anti Islamic website make a claim that Islam " borrowed" the 5 daily prayers from Zoroastrianism

Guess what? In the future some lame brain will claim that Judaism is based on Zoroastrianism because they worshiped a Singular Deity before the Children of Israel did.

Logic? Out of the frying pan and into the fire... pun fun. lol

The idea of revelation, is not considered by those who make such erroneous claims. Pay them no mind.

Scimi

 

[fromelsewhere]

Let me try and reply to some of your arguments, [MENTION=39680]Al Sultan[/MENTION]:

The prophet Mohammed received these predictions from God, through Gabriel (AS) so, it was god's choice not to mention any timeframe, and the prophet predicted that the Dajjal will come, but he didn't say when he will come, so it was god's choice not to mention a timeframe.

Maybe it was God's choice not to give specific details, but it makes these predictions too vague for a skeptic like me to consider them to be of divine origin. It's a bit like Nostradamus (have you heard of him?), he made a bunch of "prophecies" that came more or less true, and there are still people nowadays that read his work to try and "predict" the future using his works. As for Dajjal, we are still waiting for him to come along. My best guess is that I will never see him, and neither will my children, nor their children's children. Same goes for the day of judgement... I fear that we will wait, and wait, and wait...

And there's no proof to prove that they didn't bury their daughters, which was a known thing and practiced by some other nations, and treat slaves bad (not to mention Islam is the first religion to speak against and and ban it) And do other barbaric things, there's no proof to prove they didn't happen, if they didn't happen, why did God mention it in the Quran?

The onus of the "proof" should be on the one who makes the claim. It may be true or not, but if it's true, where is the proof?

Sure there are, but burying daughters and being shameful of them, treating women like they are your properties, is more than cruel, this is why God speaks against it in the Quran, and God tells us in the Quran not to do these things, protect and feed our women, and respect them, dont bury our daughters, treat slaves as if they are our brothers/sisters, give them good education and good and clothes, you cant prove that the Arabs did all of this before the Quran came, they started doing this after the Quran came, because obviously their paganized religion doesn't speak about this.

I can't "prove" that Jesus isn't the 'son of God' neither, but you and I certainly don't believe that to be true.

Same as the Black Plague, it did occur but I didn't see it happen, does that mean I have to say it didn't happen? just because I didn't see it?

We didn't see it happen, but there are many different sources that report what happened during the Black Plague... people from different countries and of different religions and cultures who wrote about it, there are records of the people who died, mass graves that exist. Also, there is archeological evidence to support the events. It is not just one group of people from one religion who are making claims about the Black Plague.

The Quran says it was split, then came back into it's normal being, it is mentioned in the Quran.

There is a hadith by Abu Hurayra which is authentic, and it says he saw the splitting of the moon, you cant say 'theres no evidence' while the Quran talks about it, and there's a hadith which talks about it too, if you want physical proof then, cameras didn't exist at the time of Prophet Mohammed (PUBH) Sadly.

Well, once again, the only proof that the moon was split comes from the Qur'an. Nowhere else is it mentioned that the moon got split and back together. You would have thought that such an unusual and unique celestial event would have caught the eye of people all over the world, not just those writing the Qur'an. But for some strange reason, no other group of people living at the time report it in their writings or scriptures about the splitting of the moon. Once again, I am skeptic that it happened.

Strongest proof that it happened, it's mentioned in the Quran, if it wasn't mentioned, then it wasn't split, but if it was mentioned then it was split, if something didn't happen, no one would talk about it, if it did, people would, and God spoke about it in the Quran.

Really? So by the same logic, the Ancient Greek stories of Zeus and Hera and so forth are true because people were talking about it and even made temples to their numerous 'gods'? This is a very, very weak argument.

If Arab poets couldn't bring 10 verses/chapters like of the Quran, what would ?

Well, maybe they could.

 

[Scimitar]

Maybe it was God's choice not to give specific details, but it makes these predictions too vague for a skeptic like me to consider them to be of divine origin. It's a bit like Nostradamus (have you heard of him?), he made a bunch of "prophecies" that came more or less true, and there are still people nowadays that read his work to try and "predict" the future using his works. As for Dajjal, we are still waiting for him to come along. My best guess is that I will never see him, and neither will my children, nor their children's children. Same goes for the day of judgement... I fear that we will wait, and wait, and wait...

Any holy scripture requires method to study. The Qur'an especially, simply because you are not a native Arabic speaker, and so - you would no doubt - get lost in translation.

With regard to religous prophecy of end time events, these takes a lot of study to understand and not up for personal interpretations - but contextual ones. Something you failed to mention.

As for "fearing" the day of judgement will never come - I think you should be happier about it, and not so fearful, in all honesty, if that is what you believe.

The onus of the "proof" should be on the one who makes the claim. It may be true or not, but if it's true, where is the proof?

Female infanticide is not unique to Arabia...

...also the absence of proof doesn't equate to a proof of absence.

I can't "prove" that Jesus isn't the 'son of God' neither, but you and I certainly don't believe that to be true.

Word.

We didn't see it happen, but there are many different sources that report what happened during the Black Plague... people from different countries and of different religions and cultures who wrote about it, there are records of the people who died, mass graves that exist. Also, there is archeological evidence to support the events. It is not just one group of people from one religion who are making claims about the Black Plague.

And it was a well known fact and accepted practice at that time in Arabia - just because they didn't have a tradition of recording their societal failings (hubris) doesn't mean that female infanticide did not happen.

The oral tradition in Semitic cultures is strong, and still extant today.

Well, once again, the only proof that the moon was split comes from the Qur'an. Nowhere else is it mentioned that the moon got split and back together. You would have thought that such an unusual and unique celestial event would have caught the eye of people all over the world, not just those writing the Qur'an. But for some strange reason, no other group of people living at the time report it in their writings or scriptures about the splitting of the moon. Once again, I am skeptic that it happened.

What if I told you, everything NASA tells you, is a lie. Would you believe me?

Surely not.

Sahih International: And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

Pickthall: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

Yusuf Ali: And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

Shakir: And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch.

Muhammad Sarwar: how We ordained the moon to pass through certain phases until it seems eventually to be like a bent twig;

Mohsin Khan: And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.

Arberry: And the moon -- We have determined it by stations, till it returns like an aged palm-bough.

Of course, NASA talking wet, right?

Really? So by the same logic, the Ancient Greek stories of Zeus and Hera and so forth are true because people were talking about it and even made temples to their numerous 'gods'? This is a very, very weak argument.

Did their beliefs survive the test of time? No

Whereas Islam has been withstanding that test since Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them)

Tell me, by which measure of truth do you entertain your bias?

Well, maybe they could.

Challenge still stands, 14 centuries have passed, and none have.

One question, are you unilingual?

Scimi