A question for Atheists

[fromelsewhere]

I think we are unfortunately veering off topic. You will not convince me of your position, and I will not convince you.

To answer a couple of your comments/questions nevertheless:

...also the absence of proof doesn't equate to a proof of absence.

I don't quite get what you mean here. My argument is that I am skeptic because there is no evidence to convince me that Islam is any truer than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Atheism. I am by no means trying to disprove the Qur'an, just trying to explain why I am skeptic.

Did their beliefs survive the test of time? No

Whereas Islam has been withstanding that test since Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them)

Islam was founded ~1,400 years ago. Judaism, Christianity and even Buddhism are older religions that have withstood the test of time for even longer. Buddhism, for instance, is 2,500 years old.

One question, are you unilingual?

Nah. I must admit that my Arabic skills are quite limited, but I nevertheless fail to see what is so special and unique of the writing style of the Qur'an. Many Christians and Jews also similarly claim that their Holy books are 'unique' in terms of writing style. Who to believe? Personally, I find Homer's "The Iliad" to be quite a fascinating read, and I sometimes wonder what kind of an amazing man must have written such an epic poem.

Back to the topic: to answer [MENTION=39680]Al Sultan[/MENTION]'s question: If I were living at the time of Mohammed (PBUH) but had the current knowledge and mental faculties that I have now, I may or may not have believed in him depending on what evidence he would bring forward to prove that he is indeed a prophet. I am skeptic by nature, so it would not be easy for him to convince me. I may have been peered pressured into believing him, I must admit, because I may have been scared to face death by his companions for being an 'unbeliever,' and would prefer to say 'ok you are a prophet' than to be killed. But in my heart of hearts, it is a difficult question to answer because it all depends on what Mohammed (PBUH) would do to try and convince me.

 

[Scimitar]

I think we are unfortunately veering off topic. You will not convince me of your position, and I will not convince you.

To answer a couple of your comments/questions nevertheless:

Sure, no praaablem (Indian accent)

I don't quite get what you mean here. My argument is that I am skeptic because there is no evidence to convince me that Islam is any truer than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Atheism. I am by no means trying to disprove the Qur'an, just trying to explain why I am skeptic.

If it is empirical evidence you are looking for, then you clearly have no idea what faith is and why there is no empirical evidence for God.

See, if we could prove God existed empirically, then the need for faith becomes lame, as conviction takes root - and conviction, breeds fanatics. You don't have to be a religious nut job for this to apply - any type of conviction based belief leads to fanaticism.

Take Tom Cruise for example - he'll get violent if you mock his Scientology not exactly a religion, but a belief system nonetheless.

Faith, on the other hand, is when you believe God exists without empirical proofs and you become aware of His signs in nature, in creation, in the cosmos, etc. Like a language made of physically manifested things - instead of a spoken word.

ONce one comes to such an understanding, like Abraham pbuh did, that's when one asks the more important questions such as "Oh God, what do you require of me? Why did you create me?"... until then, keep taking stabs in the dark - or follow your desires as you deem fit. Makes no difference to me either. lol.

Islam was founded ~1,400 years ago. Judaism, Christianity and even Buddhism are older religions that have withstood the test of time for even longer. Buddhism, for instance, is 2,500 years old.

Islam was always in existence - even before the creation of the Human species - as Islam simply means "willful submission to God" and each thing created by God, is in willful submission to him, except the shayateen and the majority of humans - and this is because we have this thing called "free will" which lets us do as we like. A Muslim is one who "willfully submits his or her will to God".

So on that clarified and buttered point, you're wrong.

Nah. I must admit that my Arabic skills are quite limited, but I nevertheless fail to see what is so special and unique of the writing style of the Qur'an. Many Christians and Jews also similarly claim that their Holy books are 'unique' in terms of writing style. Who to believe? Personally, I find Homer's "The Iliad" to be quite a fascinating read, and I sometimes wonder what kind of an amazing man must have written such an epic poem.

See, you already done messed up when you mentioned "writing stlye"... the Qur'an - lit. The Recital - is to be audibly heard as divine speech. It is revealed word given to Muhammad pbuh via the arch angel Gabriel. Not written word, Revealed. Gabriel didnt come to Muhammad pbuh with a book and say "here you go", nope.

The Qur'an is spoken word... revealed by God to Muhammad through the medium of Gabriel the Angel. And thus, no errors or additions, omissions, retractions, interpolations, fabrications exist in this one holy book which stands apart from the rest that have suffered at the hands of men. Cue Jermeiah 8 and "the lying pen of the scribes" in relation to the bibles.

You sure you wanna do this dance?

Back to the topic: to answer @Al Sultan's question: If I were living at the time of Mohammed (PBUH) but had the current knowledge and mental faculties that I have now, I may or may not have believed in him depending on what evidence he would bring forward to prove that he is indeed a prophet. I am skeptic by nature, so it would not be easy for him to convince me. I may have been peered pressured into believing him, I must admit, because I may have been scared to face death by his companions for being an 'unbeliever,' and would prefer to say 'ok you are a prophet' than to be killed. But in my heart of hearts, it is a difficult question to answer because it all depends on what Mohammed (PBUH) would do to try and convince me.

Interesting... as a skeptic, do you just dismiss anything that doesn't fit your world view in lieu of your own need to know truth?

Scimi

EDIT: I see you have a passion for the ancient literature of Homer. I've read the illiad and odyssey too, and explain their Gods and Goddesses as nothing more than the forces of nature such as the Sea, the Winds, and the heat of the Sun.

You cannot, by any measure of logic compare the Illiad and the Odyssey to The Qur'an - they seriously fail as they are not holy books but actual fairytale adventures of great men who were deemed sons of gods and demi gods by an altogether pompous folk.

And you know this.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Salaams,

I am afraid that arguing with you has become pointless. I will only succeed in making you angrier and will achieve nothing in return.
I will nevertheless attempt to argue one last time with you in 'good faith.'

P.S. I watched your moon video. I am afraid that I don't see what the point of it is.

See, if we could prove God existed empirically, then the need for faith becomes lame, as conviction takes root - and conviction, breeds fanatics. You don't have to be a religious nut job for this to apply - any type of conviction based belief leads to fanaticism.

I am happy that you finally acknowledge that religions are based on 'faith' and not on evidence. Phewf, it took quite some time for you to acknowledge that. I am not sure however about your point on 'fanatics'. I am 100% convicted that the earth is round, for instance, and would most likely laugh at someone who tells me that it is flat like a pancake. That being said, I would not turn into a 'round earth fanatic' and start attacking people of the flat earth society for their wrong beliefs. I would just have a good lol at them.

Islam was always in existence - even before the creation of the Human species - as Islam simply means "willful submission to God" and each thing created by God, is in willful submission to him, except the shayateen and the majority of humans - and this is because we have this thing called "free will" which lets us do as we like. A Muslim is one who "willfully submits his or her will to God".

You have just touched on one of the biggest reasons why I am a skeptic. I have an extremely difficult time understanding why a well-meaning God would punish so many non-believers in such a harsh manner (eternal burning in hell) when He hasn't exactly made himself too obvious to find.

You sure you wanna do this dance?

Isn't dancing haram? No, I don't want to dance.

 

[Scimitar]

Salaams,

I am afraid that arguing with you has become pointless. I will only succeed in making you angrier and will achieve nothing in return.
I will nevertheless attempt to argue one last time with you in 'good faith.'

Wassalaam,

It's ok, this converation between us will fruit in sha Allah, as I am not angry but rather, excited to meet a fellow skeptic. I too am one massive skeptic, but I managed to make a leap of faith - from an agnostic position to Islam.

I been where you been, just so you know.

P.S. I watched your moon video. I am afraid that I don't see what the point of it is.

Thought it was obvious. The video explains how the moon is shrinking.

The ayah explained it 1400 years ago.

Point? Lost - over the cuckoos nest? Or not?

I am happy that you finally acknowledge that religions are based on 'faith' and not on evidence. Phewf, it took quite some time for you to acknowledge that.

I've always believed so - the reason why I left all faiths in my youth was because I used to believe that all faith groups require mindless faith, and no proof - little did I know that the very word "proof" is highly subjective. And faith is not blind, but full of insights which are interpersonal. That is what I experienced and so have countless others.

Learning how many types of proof there are in relation to this argument, requires a lot of thinking time and studying alongside to help get those answers. I invested... I'm wondering if you have. I think maybe you have, given that you say you are a natural skeptic, your line of enquiry should be critical and not ignorant in method. Right?

So tell me, what method do you use to help you to understand the answers to questions you have about God, reality, your purpose in this life, and all that good stuff? I'm genuinely interested.

I am not sure however about your point on 'fanatics'. I am 100% convicted that the earth is round, for instance, and would most likely laugh at someone who tells me that it is flat like a pancake. That being said, I would not turn into a 'round earth fanatic' and start attacking people of the flat earth society for their wrong beliefs. I would just have a good lol at them.

I thought you'd be in agreement... let me just say this. Blame Terry Pratchett dying (lol) for the flat earth shills making it a thing again. When Terry was alive, he had them all spellbound with his virally acclaimed book series based on the DiscWorld saga's he authored... that was a flat earth shills paradise.

After his death, they all crawled out of the woodwork, and onto the web. Making it a thing again.

You have to laugh, how can you not? You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried. Seriously

You have just touched on one of the biggest reasons why I am a skeptic. I have an extremely difficult time understanding why a well-meaning God would punish so many non-believers in such a harsh manner (eternal burning in hell) when He hasn't exactly made himself too obvious to find.

That, is a thread on it's own, and will most definitely take this one into muddier waters than it already finds itself in. But I'm game, if you are - on a new thread.

Isn't dancing haram? No, I don't want to dance.

If you can't do metaphor, allegory, parable and analogy, then I give up.

Prophets and Messengers were sometimes ambiguous in those ways, and only those who knew the applied contexts would know what was being said.

Anyway,

Has been interesting. Please do feel free to respond

Scimi

 

[fromelsewhere]

Thought it was obvious. The video explains how the moon is shrinking.
The ayah explained it 1400 years ago.

No, the Qur'an doesn't talk about the moon shrinking, it talks about the moon splitting. This is very different. Please try again. Either way, the moon has been shrinking by a small amount over millions if not billions of years, not all of a sudden when Mohammed (PBUH) said "look!".

Then you ramble on about the subjectivity of the word "proof." I don't want to get into a whole debate about the meaning of the word "proof" because most people have a basic understanding of what a "proof" is. Sure, there are different types of "proofs", but some "proofs" are way more convincing than others. Very few people would debate about the roundness of the earth because there is sufficient, objective "proof" that the earth is round, and this "proof" can be observed and tested out by anyone living in any part of the world, of any culture/religion/background.

So tell me, what method do you use to help you to understand the answers to questions you have about God, reality, your purpose in this life, and all that good stuff? I'm genuinely interested.

I am agnostic. Agnosticism is the view that certain metaphysical claims – such as the existence of God or the supernatural – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. You can read up more on agnosticism on Wikipedia if you want to know more about my position.

P.S. I have no literal, metaphorical, or allegorical yearning for dancing right now.

 

[fschmidt]

would you then believe? or still confront him?

This phrasing is interesting, and specifically Islamic. In the Old Testament, Abraham and Moses both confront God. That doesn't mean that they didn't believe. The Quran tells these stories differently than the Old Testament does because Islam is based on submission. But with other approaches to God, like the Old Testament, there is no conflict between belief and confrontation.

 

[Al Sultan]

Maybe it was God's choice not to give specific details, but it makes these predictions too vague for a skeptic like me to consider them to be of divine origin. It's a bit like Nostradamus (have you heard of him?), he made a bunch of "prophecies" that came more or less true, and there are still people nowadays that read his work to try and "predict" the future using his works.

Too vague? i think it mentions the most important part (what will happen) but, whatever it is for you, not for me.

We're talking about a Prophet here, we have to look at what he said, did, act, we cant compare him to Nostradamus, he aint a prophet.

And there are still some Muslims too explaining the prophecies of prophet Mohammed whom he referred to, where maybe.

We didn't see it happen, but there are many different sources that report what happened during the Black Plague... people from different countries and of different religions and cultures who wrote about it, there are records of the people who died, mass graves that exist. Also, there is archeological evidence to support the events. It is not just one group of people from one religion who are making claims about the Black Plague.

I'm speaking from an ANCIENT ARABIA view, no computers, no technology or phones.

If i heard about this, from a visitor from Europe, i would understand, but i still didn't see it.

Actually, an Indian king, came to the prophet and told him that, one of his guards saw the moon split apart, i forgot the king's name but he was living at the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) he came to the prophet but, he didn't convert though.

Nowhere else is it mentioned that the moon got split and back together. You would have thought that such an unusual and unique celestial event would have caught the eye of people all over the world, not just those writing the Qur'an. But for some strange reason, no other group of people living at the time report it in their writings or scriptures about the splitting of the moon. Once again, I am skeptic that it happened.

Different time zones bro, How come people in London, would look at the sky in the daylight? everybody would be busy, doing their work/job/whatever

As i said, it caught the eye of an indian astronomer or guard, (either one of them I'm not sure) and there's a hadith that talks about this.

Also, it could've lasted for only 30 seconds, 5 minutes, not 5 hours? ever thought about that? that could be a reason too.

Well i am not to force you to believe in it, don't believe it, fine, I don't mind.

Really? So by the same logic, the Ancient Greek stories of Zeus and Hera and so forth are true because people were talking about it and even made temples to their numerous 'gods'? This is a very, very weak argument.

Did you read my last line? "and God spoke about it in the Quran." I was referring something as the moon being split, i didn't say that, if something didn't happen within a people, no one would talk about it. (Notice the fullstop) i continued, i was referring this sentence to God, and the Muslims,Pagans, because Pagans obviously kept doubting that it happened, 'magic' and 'illusion' and so on, as they claim.

That is an extremely weak argument when you're comparing Zeus, these mythical stories didn't last long, no one even cares about them anymore, to Islam and prophet Mohammed (PBUH) Zeus was born 700 B.C , Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was born in 570 (Georgian calendar) or 12th day of Rabi Al- Awwal (Islamic calendar) so obviously, they are far apart, and we're talking about Islam here, a monotheistic religion, not some mythical character..

Well, maybe they could.

as Scimitar said, challenge is open for those who want to bring the like of it.

 

[Al Sultan]

But with other approaches to God, like the Old Testament, there is no conflict between belief and confrontation.

What i meant was, question him, reason with him, confront was the word i thought of by the way.

Different in what way? BIG differences in the stories? did you read the story in the Quran by the way?

 

[Scimitar]

No, the Qur'an doesn't talk about the moon shrinking, it talks about the moon splitting. This is very different. Please try again. Either way, the moon has been shrinking by a small amount over millions if not billions of years, not all of a sudden when Mohammed (PBUH) said "look!".

Then you ramble on about the subjectivity of the word "proof." I don't want to get into a whole debate about the meaning of the word "proof" because most people have a basic understanding of what a "proof" is. Sure, there are different types of "proofs", but some "proofs" are way more convincing than others. Very few people would debate about the roundness of the earth because there is sufficient, objective "proof" that the earth is round, and this "proof" can be observed and tested out by anyone living in any part of the world, of any culture/religion/background.



I am agnostic. Agnosticism is the view that certain metaphysical claims – such as the existence of God or the supernatural – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. You can read up more on agnosticism on Wikipedia if you want to know more about my position.

P.S. I have no literal, metaphorical, or allegorical yearning for dancing right now.

Honestly, I think you missed a lot of points in my last post to you,

*shaking head

Read through my post again.

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

This phrasing is interesting, and specifically Islamic. In the Old Testament, Abraham and Moses both confront God. That doesn't mean that they didn't believe. The Quran tells these stories differently than the Old Testament does because Islam is based on submission. But with other approaches to God, like the Old Testament, there is no conflict between belief and confrontation.

There usually is conflict within the self, when one seeks to know truth of God. It's completely natural. Yes, Moses pbuh argued with God and usually fell humbled in prostration when he realised - one does not argue with God and win.

Abraham didn't argue with God, rather, he questioned God.

Whatever the issues - they both submitted... so in both cases, they are correct.

Scimi

 

[fromelsewhere]

Salaams,

Unfortunately, my time is limited, but to reply to some of your comments:

We're talking about a Prophet here, we have to look at what he said, did, act, we cant compare him to Nostradamus, he aint a prophet.

Nostradamus claimed to be a prophet. Fortunately, at the time, people (for the most part) were skeptic and did not believe him. Skepticism when someone claims to be a prophet is generally a good policy. If someone truly is a prophet, he or she should be able to prove it with no ambiguity.

I'm speaking from an ANCIENT ARABIA view, no computers, no technology or phones.

There were also no computers, no technology, no phones in ANCIENT EGYPT neither, but there still remains a lot of evidence that was left behind about how the ancient Egyptians lived.

Actually, an Indian king, came to the prophet and told him that, one of his guards saw the moon split apart, i forgot the king's name but he was living at the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) he came to the prophet but, he didn't convert though.
As i said, it caught the eye of an indian astronomer or guard, (either one of them I'm not sure) and there's a hadith that talks about this.

Once again, the proof is held within the Islamic religion. The mention of the Indian king and astrologer is in a hadith. No proof outside of Islam.

 

[Al Sultan]

Nostradamus claimed to be a prophet. Fortunately, at the time, people (for the most part) were skeptic and did not believe him. Skepticism when someone claims to be a prophet is generally a good policy. If someone truly is a prophet, he or she should be able to prove it with no ambiguity

You cant call anyone a 'prophet' ...

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) sent the message of God, encourages us to do good deeds, taught us how to love and treat our friends, neighbors, family, told us to pray to one god and never associate anything with him.

I'm 100% sure Nostradamus didn't sent the message of God in the first place (To claim he's a so called 'prophet' )

It's known that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the last messenger to walk the Earth, and no one ever came after sending another message of god.

ANCIENT EGYPT neither, but there still remains a lot of evidence that was left behind about how the ancient Egyptians lived.

I don't think we can compare Ancient Egypt with Ancient Arabia, Ancient Egyptians were far more strong, had more technology, they were pretty smart too, i don't think Ancient Arabia is one percent close to Ancient Egypt (saying this an Arab)

Have you ever heard the very famous Egyptian phrase? " Masr heya om el dunya" (translation) "Egypt is the mother of the world"

That's the reason why. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^

Once again, the proof is held within the Islamic religion. The mention of the Indian king and astrologer is in a hadith. No proof outside of Islam.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/...tting-miracle-of-prophet-muhammad-pbuh/#_ftn1



Note: I believe this event occurred and lasted about 5 mintues or less, it didn't last 4 or more hours, thing is, you cant disprove it, if you want to see it again..

The next time we'll see the moon being split is when the Day of Judgement will be near.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Dear [MENTION=39680]Al Sultan[/MENTION],

Once again, you are arguing that Islam is true from the perspective of Islam, but what I am saying is that outside of Islam, there is no evidence to support that Islam is true. I took a look at the link you included, and it does not change a thing to what I am saying. The story of the Indian king who apparently saw the moon splitting is based on a Muslim legend, nothing more and nothing less.

With regards to the moon splitting again when the Day of Judgement will be near, all I can say is that I will wait to see this happen...

 

[Al Sultan]

Once again, you are arguing that Islam is true from the perspective of Islam,

I haven't even said the line or sentence "Islam is true" , i know the website above that i posted, says things about the prophet from the hindu scriptures, but i didn't refer to it, i only wanted you to read about the moon split part.well from which perspective will you learn about Islam? Buddhist perspective?

but what I am saying is that outside of Islam, there is no evidence to support that Islam is true.

There's a lot of meaning within the sentence, "Islam is true" on which basis? what do you mean exactly by this?


I can say the same thing for every religion, there's no outside evidence to support that Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, is true?

From which perspective will you learn about Islam from? Buddhist perspective?

The story of the Indian king who apparently saw the moon splitting is based on a Muslim legend

The thing is, the Quran doesn't claim that an Indian king came later on, met the prophet and became muslim and told him that he saw the split of the moon, the Quran doesn't talk about this, what we Muslims do know, that There's a hadith about this, the Quran talks about this, and that it was split, but the Pagans disbelieved in it and they thought it was a illusion, a trick.

It could be a Muslim legend, who knows, but remember, the Quran and the Hadith didn't write about him.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Where are the Hindu scriptures about the moon splitting?

The problem with all religions is that they all claim to be true but can't offer any convincing evidence that they are indeed true. This is too bad because I wish I could be convinced and have no doubts in my own faith, but I do have doubts and rather big ones at that.

You therefore have to blindly believe that the moon splitted, for instance. This is a big leap of faith to make, and I cannot blame people who have a hard time making such a leap of faith.

 

[Al Sultan]

Where are the Hindu scriptures about the moon splitting?

i know the website above that i posted, says things about the prophet from the hindu scriptures, BUT I DIDNT REFER TO IT, i ONLY wanted you to read about the moon split part

The problem with all religions is that they all claim to be true but can't offer any convincing evidence that they are indeed true.

Then why don't you LEARN and THINK about them? then you'll see which one is true?

You therefore have to blindly believe that the moon splitted, for instance. This is a big leap of faith to make, and I cannot blame people who have a hard time making such a leap of faith.

Lol, 'Blindly believe that the moon splitted'

God talks about this in the Quran, there's no 'blind' or 'faith' you are NOW questioning wither the Quran is from god or not, ( Which is a good question but for another thread)
I believe in what God says, which is why I believe the moon was split, do you need other evidences from 'outside' of Islam to know the moon was split? God knows better and more than them, If God tells me that the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did mistakes, do I need to go ask the people to make sure he did mistakes? if you don't believe in what God says, would you choose w then this is your problem, not Islam's, not the Quran's problem.

It's not a leap of faith for those who believe in God, only those who don't believe, think like that "Its a leap of faith"

 

[fromelsewhere]

Then why don't you LEARN and THINK about them? then you'll see which one is true?

I have. Once again, I am repeating what I have already said many times already: The problem with all religions is that they all claim to be true but can't offer any convincing evidence that they are indeed true. Therefore, I remain skeptic.

I believe in what God says, which is why I believe the moon was split, do you need other evidences from 'outside' of Islam to know the moon was split? God knows better and more than them, If God tells me that the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did mistakes, do I need to go ask the people to make sure he did mistakes? if you don't believe in what God says, would you choose w then this is your problem, not Islam's, not the Quran's problem.

It's not a leap of faith for those who believe in God, only those who don't believe, think like that "Its a leap of faith"

But the whole problem for a skeptic like me is: how do I know that this IS what God said?

 

[Al Sultan]

I have

For how long? have you searched about Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam???

The problem with all religions is that they all claim to be true but can't offer any convincing evidence that they are indeed true. Therefore, I remain skeptic.

Islam never said it's the BEST religion in the world and all religions are false, it never said that, it says it's the last religion from god.

As I said, look at it's principles, morals, ethics, basics, and then think about them, or just revise the major religions in the world and see which fits, if no one does, then this is your choice.

But the whole problem for a skeptic like me is: how do I know that this IS what God said?

Good question,now before I go in on how we Muslims know that the Quran is from god, we need to make sure it's not written by anyone, so we have two targets.

1 - Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) 2 - The Arabs


Prophet Mohammed - First of all, he was illiterate ! he didn't know how to write, or read, so how did he come up with such a beautiful book? no one taught him poetry, and he was a Shepherd, he used to take care of Sheeps, so who could've taught him poetry? his father died when he was 6 years old, his mother died too (I think she died when he was born) so who? he didn't know anyone that he used to talk to, he just an ordinary man, although everybody trusted him, he was called (Al Ameen)

So there's no proof that the Prophet wrote it himself, which means the Arabs might did.

The Arabs - first of all, they were PAGANS. Why would Pagans write a book that clearly goes against their religion and idols? that will get them even killed! why would they endanger their life writing a book? for what purpose?

(You may think they wrote it and gave it to the prophet) The question to this is that, why did everyone hate the Prophet Mohammed ? (PBUH) call him a magician, a poet? why did NO ONE stand with him? because obviously they were pagans, no one supported monotheism, just Polytheism.


There's no proof that the Arabs, or the prophet wrote it.

Now to your question, how do we know this is what god says?

I have to ask, have you read the Quran fully? if you didn't, I believe you should.

It's eloquence, teachings, sentences, and what it says, it's beautiful, it's beyond what humans can do, and thus, the Quran challenges it, to bring a chapter like it, 10 verses like it, or a verse like it, no one has, and no one could.

 

[fschmidt]

Different in what way? BIG differences in the stories? did you read the story in the Quran by the way?

I read the story about Abraham but not about Moses arguing with God. Where is it? (I only heard about the Quran version.)

 

[Al Sultan]

Moses arguing with God. Where is it?

Arguing with god ? or do you mean the story about him meeting god?