A question need attention

[khalid zaheer]

Assalaam o alaikum

There are a number of messengers appointed by Almighty time to time with His message, among them many comes with “books” and “Musahaf”, but unfortunately we – the human community – ever tried to change the messages according to our wishes, even the messages given by some unique persons, other than messenger, like Confucius are changed by us, basically a vast amount of people don’t like the truth, I am presenting some examples here

Torah and Zaboor – The book of Jews, also called “old testament”, today it is consist of nearly 39 books, and according to knowledge-full persons like Kitto “most of them was written by a Faqeeh “Azra”, afterward many other additions made like Talmud or Apocrypha. The changes are still going on, every new addition differ from last one, so what I say about “Original” even today we are not able to found material written by “Azra”.

Anaageel (Bibles) or New Testament – according to encyclopedia of Britannica there are at least 34 Anaageels, and Spangler says “when the companions of Easa (as) became old then they collected all kind of stories about Easa (as) from here and there and arrange them as Easa’s (as) biography – this is Bible. (the decline of the west, book 2)
Professor Joud says in “God and Evil” I am much worried about the difference between “Anaageels”, and Ernest Renan says in “Life of Jesus” No doubt that Anaageels completely reject each others.

Zoroaster – Book Avesta is the basic of this religion, in 500 BC Zoroasterism had nearly 70 sects and every one has one’s own Avesta which differs to others. Gibbon says in 450 BC a bigger conference of Zoroastrian priests conducted by Iranian emperor to emerge and agreed book………, and from 80000 priests selected 7 as senior, from these 7 one is selected and three bowls of wine gave to him, he drank and slept, when he wake back then he told that I have mat to lords and they guide me to the right path – so wrote an agreed book as he told. (the teachings of Zoroaster by SA Kapadia)

Buddhism – it is said that the compilation of Buddha’s sayings was done in nearly after 300 years of his death. The knowledge-full persons of Buddhism still not able to decide the era of compilation, it is assuming that the era was third century. (Das gupta)
And the way to compilation was as same as you read above means through a conference.

Hinduism – what I say about this religion, as I read it has not any direction. Even they has not decide “who is able to called Hindu” (Hinduism by Govindas), and Dr. Libyan says in “Tamadnay Hind” that “the thousand of books written during last 3000 years have not even a single thing that can be said ok. The basic of Hinduism is “Veda”, and it is assume that these were written by “Viyaas je” but Govindas says in Hinduism that “we can easily say that the books we have today are not according to as Viyaas je gave us”.

There is the same situation with Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, and japans Shintoism. Means it is decided or historical fact that man ever tried to change the truth according to man’s wishes.

Quran is safe, can never be changed, now the question is when it was impossible to change the Quran then what kind of efforts done by Man to change this unique message, if someone says that Islam is as it as was revealed then its certainly a mistake, we are the evidence. My question is when it is regular process then certainly happened with Islam, but which way and this “which way” is my question.

regards

 

[titus]

Was there not an "official" version of the Quran until many years after Muhammad's death? In fact once Uthman had a committee come up with an official version he ordered "unofficial" copies burnt while he was Kalif. How could this be if there has never been any corruption or changes made by man?

Using this argument one could also claim that Scientology is just as valid as Islam since their main document has not been altered by anyone.

 

[_ALI_]

Salam titus

Was there not an "official" version of the Quran until many years after Muhammad's death? In fact once Uthman had a committee come up with an official version he ordered "unofficial" copies burnt while he was Kalif. How could this be if there has never been any corruption or changes made by man?

It is a strange thing that many nonmuslims try to prove that Quran is not authentic. Without understanding why the copies were burnt, they allege that these copies were burnt so that text of Quran disappears in history. Any neutral person can judge that a person who is sencere to his religion won't just burn his religious scriptures for no good reason. Let me explain; Quran was revealed in seven dialects. Not versions. Dialects. The problem is, the English language does not have any dialects so it is difficult for you to understand the difference. But anyway I'll give you a few examples regarding dialects. In the arabic language the word "Hatta" (meaning until) was pronounces "atta" in a different dialect. Same word, same meaning, different pronounciation. Some Arabs used to have a dialect which originated from Yemen, where they would add "an" at the end of a noun. Take for instance the popular word of today "Taliban", as in the Taliban in Afghanistan. "Taliban" is the same as the Arabic word "Talib" which means "Student". Again, same meaning, different pronounciation. But why did God reveal Quran in 7 dialects? Why not 1? The reason is that Prophet Muhammad pbuh wanted all the Arabs to accept and understand Quran. So he asked angel Gabriel to reveal Quran in other dialects as well.
BUKHARI Volume 6, Book 61, Number 513:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways."

Coming to the Question, why did the Caliph Usman burn the other dialects of the Quran and retained only 1 i.e the Qurashi dialect? Well, Islam at that time was spreading very fast. The nonarab Muslims were also, like you, having a hard time understanding the concept of dialects. If one group of nonarab recites Quran in a particular dialect and the other group recites it in another dialect, they will have differences between them. They would call each other wrong, since they do not understand dialects. So to avoid differences, Only one dialect of Quran was retained. The answer of your question is actually in the following hadith
Sahih Bukhari [Volume 6, No. 510, pages 478-479]

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to 'Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthmfin, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an), as Jews and the Christians did before'. So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As and 'Abdur Rahman bin Hari-bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Isn't it a good idea to keep just one dialect? Nowadays, if you campare a Quran bought from streets of Sudan to the one bought from a mall in Malaysia, they will be identical.
Some nonmuslims allege that these different dialects of the Quran had contradictions, which is why they were burnt. Suppose I agree, then let us examine the following hadith.
BUKHARI Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle), "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."

If these 7 dialects in which Quran was revealed had contradictions, wouldn't Prophet Muhammad pbuh have corrected them? I have quoted 2 hadiths regarding this topic, and both suggest that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was alive while these different versions existed. Shouldn't he have corrected if these versions were contradictory?
I hope that I have answered your question. As for the authenticity of the Quran, I do not need to give an argument on that. You can find dozens on internet, by Muslims as well as nonmuslims. Let me just quote Quran
"We [Allah] have, without doubt, sent down the Message [The Noble Quran]; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"

Using this argument one could also claim that Scientology is just as valid as Islam since their main document has not been altered by anyone

Scientology is a comparitively recent religion (founded in 1953) so it has not stood the test of time as Quran has. But even if I agree with you, we can use other methods to prove that Quran is the word of God.
1) It may be due to the prescientific knowledge given in the Quran.
www.quranmiracles.com
2) It may be because of historical miracles of the Quran
http://miraclesof thequran/historical_index.html
(remove the space)
3) It may be due to the mathematical miracles
http://miraclesof thequran/mathematical_index.html
(remove the space)
4) It may be because it was predicted by many religious scriptures.
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/muhammad_prophesised/index.htm
5) It may be because it gives us a perfect way of life at an individual and helps us to attain inner peace. A practicing Muslim never feels fear regarding the future or grief regarding past.

002.038 قُلْنَا اهْبِطُوا مِنْهَا جَمِيعًا فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُمْ مِنِّي هُدًى فَمَنْ تَبِعَ هُدَايَ فَلا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ
002.038 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Al-Qur'an, 002.038 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

6) It may be because it gives us a set of ideal rules and regulations which when applied can give an ideal society. We can prove that by giving the example of Hazrat Umer, who on the application of Quran created a prosperous society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Umar's_era
7) Mostly People believe in Islam because it is simple and its principles are in accordance with our inner ethical code (such as equality, justice etc). Its fundamental concepts such as oneness of God, Judgement day appeals to our thinking.
8) Also Quran is the greatest literary miracle of the Arabic language. At the height of poetry, Quran came and it gave a challenge

002.023 وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُوا بِسُورَةٍ مِنْ مِثْلِهِ وَادْعُوا شُهَدَاءَكُمْ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
002.023 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
002.024 فَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلُوا وَلَنْ تَفْعَلُوا فَاتَّقُوا النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ
002.024 But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
Al-Qur'an, 002.023-024 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
All the Arab literary figures were given a challenge not to produce a whole book like Quran but to produce a single Surah like Quran. The smallest Surah of Quran consists of 3 sentences. But the pagans were unable to do so.
Here are a few reasons I have in my head right now. There may be more.
Peace

 

[khalid zaheer]

Assalaam o alaikum

Dear brother Ali, are you defending Quran or try to prove that it is really not authentic? The concept of seven dialects is a worthless concept, it was emerged to show the Quran doubtful.

It is also a wrong concept that Quran was not in the shape of book when Muhammad (pbuh) died, and first it done by Usman (rt) in his era. Its a long debate may some other time in specific thread we will talk over but this time my question is

"When quran is unchangeable then what kind of efforts done by the people to change the essence of real order?"

Certainly an effort you point out that "tried to change to word of quran through emerging the concept of 7 dialects", but even you yourself don't know that you presented a good point. Keep try

regards

 

[raushan]

The Collection and Preservation of the Qur’an

The Qur’an is a book of revelations from God. Today it exists in the form of a book consisting of 114 chapters. They were sent down by the angel Gabriel, bit by bit according to the demand of circumstances.

The revelations started in 610 while the Prophet was in seclusion in a cave of Hira mountain, two miles from Makkah. The entire revelation was completed over a period of 23 years. The last passage was revealed when the Prophet was addressing a gathering at Mount Arafat after performing farewell pilgrimage in A.D. 622.

The Qur'an was not revealed all at one time. It was revealed gradually over a period of twenty three years. When any part of the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet he used to recite it to his companions. Since the verses of the Qur'an were recited during prayer the companions had to memorize them in order to recite them in their daily prayers.

In this way the memorization and the writing down of the Qur'an both started from the very first day of revelation.

According to traditions, whenever a revelation was received, Prophet called one of his scriber companions and dictated the verses to them. After dictation the Prophet also asked the scriber to read out to him what had been put in writing. This was done in order to correct any mistakes committed while writing.

This was thus the beginning of the compilation of the Qur’an. The next stage after writing down was to memorize the text. Prophet himself asked the companions to memorize the revealed verses and repeat the same in their prayers.

Thus the message of the Qur’an was not transmitted only by oral tradition even during the lifetime of the Prophet. Among his companions were a select group of about half a dozen katib-e-wahy—transcribers of the revelations. A few of these scribes were always present and whenever any part of the Qur’an was revealed, the Prophet would recite it to them. Thereupon, at the exact moment of revelation, they would not only commit it to memory, but would write it down on any available material, such as paper, bones, leather or skin. In former times when the accepted way of disseminating the subject matter of a book was to memorize it, then recite it, it was quite exceptional that the Qur’an should have been both memorized and preserved in writing. This was like having a ‘double checking’ system, whereby memory plus written words and written words plus memory could be constantly checked against each other.

The second point concerns the arrangement of the verses and chapters of the Qur’an. When the Qur’an was revealed in parts, at different times according to the demand of circumstances, how did it come to be arranged in its present form? We find the answer in books of hadith. It has been proved from authentic traditions that the angel Gabriel, who conveyed the revelations of God to the Prophet, had himself arranged these verses. According to the traditions, each year during the month of Ramazan, the angel Gabriel came to the Prophet and recited before him all the Quranic verses revealed up till that time, in the order in which they exist today. And after listening to the recitation by the angel Gabriel, the Prophet repeated the verses in the order in which he had heard them from Gabriel. This dual process has been termed al-Irza, ‘mutual presentation’ in the books of hadith.

It is also established in these books that in the last year of the Prophet’s life, when the revelations had been completed, Gabriel came to the Prophet and recited the entire Qur’an in the existing order twice, and similarly the Prophet also recited to Gabriel the entire Qur’an twice. This final presentation is called al-Arz al-Akhirah in the books of hadith. (Fathul Bari, p. 659-663)

In this way, when by the help of Gabriel the Qur’an was fully arranged, the Prophet recited it to his companions on different occasions in the order with which we are familiar today. In this way the Qur’an was preserved in its present order in the memory of tens of thousands of the companions during the lifetime of the Prophet himself.

In 632 A.D. when the Prophet died at the age of 63 years, the Qur’an existed in two forms: one, in the memory of the several thousand companions, since they repeated the Qur’an daily on different occasions, having learned it by rote in what is now its present order; two, in writing—on pieces of paper and other materials used for writing in those days. These scriptures were preserved by the companions. Although not in their present order, all the parts of the Qur’an existed at that time in written form.

After the death of the Prophet, Abu Bakr Siddiq was appointed the first caliph. It was during his caliphate that the compilation of the Qur’an was carried out. Zaid ibn Thabit, the Prophet’s foremost scribe, and an authority on the Qur’an was entrusted with this task. His work was more a process of collection than of compilation. That is, the scattered bits and pieces of the Qur’an in written form were collected by him, not so that they could be assembled and bound in one volume, but so that they could be used to verify the authenticity of the Qur’an as memorized by countless individuals and passed on in oral tradition. Once this exact correspondence between the oral and written forms of the Qur’an had been established beyond any doubt, Zaid proceeded to put the verses of the Qur’an down on paper in their correct order. The volume he produced was then handed over to the caliph, and this remained in the custody of the Prophet’s wife, Hafsa. The third caliph Osman arranged for several copies of this text to be sent to all the states and placed in central mosques where the people could prepare further copies.

In this way the message of the Qur’an spread further and further both through oral tradition and hand written copies until the age of the press dawned. Many printing presses were established in the Muslim world, where the beautiful calligraphy of the scriptures was reproduced after its content had been certified by memorizers of the Qur’an. Thus once again with the help of memorized versions and written texts, correct, authentic copies were prepared; then with the publication of these copies on a large scale, the Qur’an spread all over the world. It is an irrefutable fact that any copy of the Qur’an found in any part of the world at any time will be exactly the same as that handed down to the Muslims by the Prophet in his last days, arranged in the form still extant today.

http://cpsglobal.org/content/collection-and-preservation-qur’