A question on islamic history

[Tristan Durose]

Forgive me for asking this, it may seem like a blunt and otherwise ignorant question but I am trying to collect some information to get a better understanding of women's rights.

While in modern times Islamic women are viewed by the west as being extremely oppressed i would like to get a time frame for this "oppression", I understand the middle east is the source of a lot of modern day science and theology while the west was flung into the period known as the dark ages, this suggests to me there was a time where the middle east was considered considerably more enlightened and tolerant than the west. This would further suggest that that the treatment of women within this area and religion were treated very differently as the religious leaders would no doubt of had a considerably different interpretation of the Koran and its teachings.

My question is this, has there been a drastic shift in the treatment of women within Islamic states or middle eastern countries in the past one thousand years, when did this shift occur and what was the cause.

Again I apologise if this an insensitive question but I am currently in a debate over feminism and the subject of Muslim women will eventually come up amongst the "Social justice warriors".

Thank you for help in advance.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Welcome to the forum, Tristan.

Islamic women are viewed by the west as being extremely oppressed

Islam has given complementary rights to men and women. Muslim women are not oppressed, neither now nor in the past. There could be isolated examples of bad treatment but in general, they enjoy their rights as much as men enjoy their rights.

Before Islam, women were treated as inferior in several parts of the world. In Arabia, they used to bury their new-born girls alive. The Hindus used to burn the widows along with the deceased husband. In Rome, women had no legal rights and were not considered citizens.

In Islam, they have their rights upheld in all matters. Please see these threads for detailed discussions on this topic:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134309458-answering-question-friend.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/26881-muslim-women.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134287873-status-women-islam.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/30228-misconception-islam-degrades-women.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...tions-women-islam-mature-answer-question.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/43848-women-inferior.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/23286-women-equal.html#post367365

 

[greenhill]

Welcome to the forum..

Pretty loaded question.. passed one thousand years? Changed in its treatment of women? In what way? How does the way islam treats women is slowly thought to be oppressive via public opinion?

You see, in actual fact it is the same rule, and only difference is how the people treat it. However the west has changed so many things that I suppose parading women in their swim suits and evening gowns vote Miss Universe/ World is not demeaning? Having women posing with next to nothing outfits to promote stuff in adverts etc is not exploitation of women as objects of desire? The emphasis and propaganda to make women feel incomplete unless they are beautiful in every way, skinny, full beautiful hair etc is great for the the womenfolks? The glass ceiling for women in the work place and all that is not the subtle western style oppression of women but never attacked consistently by anyone as they would the islamic ways.

Heck, feminism arose in the West because the West oppressed their women in other ways. Feminis never even got past 'Go' in islamic world.. it can't be that the entire women population in islam are wrong.. so why are people outside islam so concerned when the islamic women themselves are pretty happy?


eace: ... and wishing you a great stay.

 

[Tristan Durose]

Thanks for your replies, my intention was not to spark a discussion about the treatment of women in Islam or the middle east. I maybe should have phrased my question a little better and broadened it to the treatment of women in the middle east rather than in Islam itself as i believe those in the west who claim Islam is oppressive towards women are using Islam as something to focus on as the cause rather than the regional and cultural difference. I myself would like to believe I am a supporter of human rights and to focus on one social, racial or religious group to help is a little narrow minded and can often come of as condescending to those you're trying to help.

So i suppose i would like input about how the middle east has changed in terms of how women are viewed by men and also how men are viewed by women, is the middle east an overly patriarchal society or a meritocracy that has not yet been fully understood due to cultural differences between the middle east and the west, has it had any points of regression and progression in terms of acceptable social behaviour. How have traditions changed the role of men and women in daily lives etc over the years would also be a sensible question i guess.

Thanks for your time.

 

[greenhill]

I suppose it would be inescapable to have cultural influence seeping into the practice over time.

Islam has areas where it is patriach and areas where is is matriach. Each has a function.

But the secular laws that has been imposed on the countries have no doubt helped the incorporation of custom and culture.. like women in Saudi not being allowed to drive (an example) and because I am not from Saudi I can only presume that the law will be interpreted as being hard on women's rights, but I guess it would have roots due to the requirement of the husband's permission to leave the house..

The law of the land I supposed followed the whims of the men who probably wanted to ensure their wives remained home. Whereas in most other muslim countries female are allowed to drive.

Is this what you are asking? I am still not clear..


eace:

 

[Scimitar]

Forgive me for asking this, it may seem like a blunt and otherwise ignorant question but I am trying to collect some information to get a better understanding of women's rights.

While in modern times Islamic women are viewed by the west as being extremely oppressed i would like to get a time frame for this "oppression", I understand the middle east is the source of a lot of modern day science and theology while the west was flung into the period known as the dark ages, this suggests to me there was a time where the middle east was considered considerably more enlightened and tolerant than the west. This would further suggest that that the treatment of women within this area and religion were treated very differently as the religious leaders would no doubt of had a considerably different interpretation of the Koran and its teachings.

My question is this, has there been a drastic shift in the treatment of women within Islamic states or middle eastern countries in the past one thousand years, when did this shift occur and what was the cause.

Again I apologise if this an insensitive question but I am currently in a debate over feminism and the subject of Muslim women will eventually come up amongst the "Social justice warriors".

Thank you for help in advance.

Differentiate between cultural practices and religious recommendations and you will find that "culture" has more problems and "religion" aims to fix them. However, if the culture is held onto more than religion, then it's not just a question of sexism, but all kinds of schisms become apparent as "Problems".

take for example how in the USA, despite it being a primarily "Christian" nation, how "lewdism" and "hellenistic principles" have become the accepted norm, or how LGBT is disproportionately pushed by the media and sponsored by "govt agenda" despite what the "bible" says about it.

Scimi

 

[AabiruSabeel]

There are huge cultural differences between the west and Middle East. What is considered as liberation and freedom in the west is considered as immoral in the Middle East, whereas the west considers Middle Eastern values as oppression. The women of Middle East enjoy their rights and are happy with their complementary roles.

We have a few female members on board from the Middle East who can give their account of how they feel living there and how they enjoy their rights (or not).

The west shouldn't try to impose its own perceived vision of liberation on other cultures.

 

[Scimitar]

My question as a Muslim is, "Can we teach you in the west about moral values which protect each Sex's complimentary roles in society without objectifying either?"

Or how about "can you answer me why your western women disrespect their bodies and then complain when men treat them as objects?"

or how about "can you tell me why women in the west put aside marriage until they reach thirty and then wonder why they are having trouble getting pregnant?"

or how about "why do western women feel they must be plastic with surgery and all that fake stuff?"

Or how about... seriously I can do this all day.

Scimi

 

[greenhill]

It reminds me a bit of the thread "the uneven response of islam to universal human rights"...

How so?

The western thought process where how their society has developed over the fairly recent generations is felt to be most suitable and universally applicable almost to the point if we do not change with the times it is frowned upon.

Islam is a way of life which Allah has decreed. Humans have the tendency to change things to suit themselves. It will be so much easier if we all as muslim collectively agreed that actually, fasting is not necessary, neither are the 5 daily prayers compulsory etc, yes the life in this world may be less cumbersome, but it does nothing for the ultimate result..

We hold fast to the fact that if we do all that, we are only deluding ourselves. Hence there is little to be gained by adjusting God's laws to suit our fancy, whether it be about the hijab, about polygamy, haram or halal issues, adultery etc..

eace:

 

[sister herb]

I think you are asking the wrong question. You should ask why the view of the western people towards of the Islamic world and the status of women there has been changed.

As you wrote: "While in modern times Islamic women are viewed by the west as being extremely oppressed ", the question is not the change in the Islamic societies but change in the western societies. When and how this has changed - and why. Many times kind of views are nothing more than ignorance and prejudices. Also, it´s not a big deal to ask at the first from the Muslim women do they feel themselves as extremely oppressed or not and do they want that someone else will fight for their rights. By this we could also avoid some laws which seem like overkills like law in the France which makes it forbidden for Muslim ladies to decide by themselves how they can dress in the public. Supporters of kind of law say its for protecting Muslim women from the oppression but actually it only tells about racist attitude they have for the Muslims in general and Muslim women in particular.