A Question which Atheists could not answer

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This website says that Neanderthals are simply human beings
Creationist views of Neanderthals have shifted over the decades. At first there was a big effort to say they were just ordinary human bones with diseases. That defence has been dropped now. Based on the genetic evidence, most Creationists now accept them as human (because not to do so is very difficult to explain any more.)

You have not explained any of the gaps in the Creationist explanation I posted above?

it had been proven that the archaeopteryx is actually simply a dinosaur and not the intermediate between dinosaurs and birds; it doesn't fly. But you completely ignored that statement
That's hasn't been proved, the consensus is that it did fly - even among Creationists. Most Creationists seek to defend it on other grounds (either that it's all dinosaur or all bird) - a completely contradictory approach.

Another example is bipedalism and quatropedalism. tell me why four legs should appear first before two legs according to evolutionary logic.
Evolutionary logic suggests some restrictions on order of changes (you can't evolve a thumb without a hand). In the case of number of legs, quadrupeds would be a more likely first adaption for creatures evolving from sea-creatures. Bipedalism is not a logical adaption until you already have land creatures. Which is also why humans are poor swimmers (especially me.)
 
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You have not explained any of the gaps in the Creationist explanation I posted above?

Are we discussing creationism or evolution here? I believe this thread is about evolution and not creationism. I haven't looked into the gaps you mention.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Independent;

I do - large land creatures have many adaptions in keeping with their size. My point is, you can't just scale a creature up or down without making many other changes. A 90ft man could not walk. By the time you made all the changes it wouldn't be human any more.

I think you may be missing the point, a 90ft man did not evolve from anything, God created, and he became.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
 
In the case of number of legs, quadrupeds would be a more likely first adaption for creatures evolving from sea-creatures. Bipedalism is not a logical adaption until you already have land creatures.

You state that because you have evidence in the fossil record that four-legged appeared first. There is no reason why creatures evolving from sea-creatures to sprout four legs and walk on all fours instead of two legs. I reckon fish could very well have their tail fins evolve into two legs and start walking on two legs. why not? it would be more logical than a fish sprouting four legs all at once from no where. So why did four appear before two? and why all four at once?
 
Are we discussing creationism or evolution here? I believe this thread is about evolution and not creationism. I haven't looked into the gaps you mention
There have been umpteen threads throwing questions at TOE and none asking the reverse. I have been answering questions for 24 pages already.

My argument is that TOE is better at explaining the information we have than Creationism. It's hard to make that point without making an actual comparison with Creationism.

Some of the gaps in the explanation of Neanderthals are in my post above although i can think of plenty more.
 
I think you may be missing the point, a 90ft man did not evolve from anything, God created, and he became.
No, I understand that he was created ex nihilo. I'm asking where is the evidence of these creatures and those that came after, as man would need to shrink to his current size.
 
There have been umpteen threads throwing questions at TOE and none asking the reverse. I have been answering questions for 24 pages already.

You're free to start a thread asking for evidence for creationism.
 
No, I understand that he was created ex nihilo. I'm asking where is the evidence of these creatures and those that came after, as man would need to shrink to his current size.

Remember they were formally buried - most anyway. I haven't read up on requirements for fossilization but I think human burial probably doesn't aid fossilization.
 
You state that because you have evidence in the fossil record that four-legged appeared first. There is no reason why creatures evolving from sea-creatures to sprout four legs and walk on all fours instead of two legs. I reckon fish could very well have their tail fins evolve into two legs and start walking on two legs. why not? it would be more logical than a fish sprouting four legs all at once from no where. So why did four appear before two? and why all four at once?
It doesn't have to be 4 legs or even any legs. The first creature is likely to have crawled because that requires less adaption for the physics of moving through air rather than water. There is nothing resembling bipedalism in any sea creature, now or in the fossil record. Bipedalism does not confer an advantage under water. To emerge crawling from water is a smaller adaption than to appear just strolling up the beach.
 
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Remember they were formally buried - most anyway. I haven't read up on requirements for fossilization but I think human burial probably doesn't aid fossilization.
Fossilation is an accidental process and accidents happen to men as well as animals. And sometimes, it's the burial process that aids preservation (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24053119)

Everything single tool or archaeological artifact we have indicates men have always been similar to our current height. If you choose to include homo erectus as human (as most Creationists are now doing, to avoid other problems) that takes us back to about 1.8 million years. The race of giant humans has to precede that date.

This is roughly 1.8 million years before the invention of agriculture, the domestication of animals and the invention of pottery. It;s also about 1.2 million years before the invention of clothing. It's even possibly before we discovered how to manipulate fire. None of this fits with Scripture but it does with TOE.
 
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Please do not use just this statement about Adam (A.S) being 90 feet tall as an excuse against creationism. Remember that Adam A.S was a very special human being. He lived part of his life in heaven and then was sent down to earth. The hadith only states that Adam (A.S) was some cubits tall which equal 90 feet. It does not say that all of the first humans were 90 feet tall (as far as I understand).

as for quadropeds, there is no reason why living things coming out of the ocean would evolve into four legged. Like I said, it could be just as possible for a fish to have their tail fins evolve into legs. What creatures do evolutionists believe to have left the ocean and started crawling and then evolved into four legged animals?


There is nothing resembling bipedalism in any sea creature, now or in the fossil record. Bipedalism does not confer an advantage under water
God created everything fit for their environment. For example most fish have gills but land animals have lungs because they couldn't breathe with gills on land.
There is no reason why a bipedal sea creature to not have existed. Many sea creatures like lobsters and crabs crawl on the ocean floor. A biped creature could've very well walked on the ocean floor. I'm sure some of these types of creatures (sea-men we can call them) might've even had an advantage over swimming animals. They could've breathed through gills and walked on two legs on the ocean floor and used their hands for various things. I don't see why fish couldn't have evolved into such if snakes and other legless crawling land animals could make the leap first from being sea animals and then to four legged to flying animals to two legged etc etc etc! Seriously, if it was all upto evolution, we should've seen all of these sorts of creatures.
 
Everything single tool or archaeological artifact we have indicates men have always been similar to our current height

That's not really true. We have the stonehenge, huge stones placed on top of each other indicating that it was the work of some being but it is unknown how such huge stones could have been placed in such a way. The stones are too big for ordinary humans to lift. http://www.ask.com/question/how-tall-is-stonehenge

The blocks of stone that make up Stonehenge stand about thirteen and a half feet tall. The weight of each stone is about 28 tons. A stone 76 feet tall is 80 yards away from Stonehenge to the east.
 
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Greetings Independent,

I can understand why you might feel that there is enough uncertainty around TOE to withold judgement. However, I think you are not appreciating the balance of where there is certainty, and where there is not. The Creationist attack on TOE reminds me of the OJ Simpson defence, if you remember that case. Throw enough mud at the wall, confuse the jury with long technical digressions, and in the end cast enough doubt that they fall back on their existing sympathies.
I think it is unfair to paint the picture that Creationism is blind to the obvious and to reduce its arguments to simply casting enough doubt. We need to also consider how evolutionists are misleading in their selective presentation of information and evade genuine criticism. Analogies to concepts like gravity are unhelpful because these are phenomena we witness and experience on a daily basis, whilst there is far less certainty and clarity on minute details having occurred millions and millions of years ago.

Most people on this forum are getting all their information from Creationist critiques of evolution - they're not reading anything from the source material. It's equivalent to condemning the Qur'an using wiki Islam as your sole source.
In my skimming through of this thread, I did not find any source material that could be referred to, other than google searches and the odd website. The real source material seems to be inaccessible for the average reader, therefore this makes it more difficult to make any judgement on it. In the case of the Qur'an, at a basic level, the source material together with explanatory texts is widely available to anyone so there would be no need to consult dubious sources or rely on an unqualified interpretation.

To make any kind of fair assessment of TOE you need to read a large number of central texts - but plainly you're not going to do that and why should you? You have other things to focus on.

All I ask is that you give TOE the benefit of the doubt, as you ought to do without genuine scholarship. Leave science to the scientists, and theology to the theologians. That's it really...
Without genuine scholarship, it would seem more correct to withhold judgement. I don't think any scientist accepts a theory by simply giving it the benefit of the doubt. I am happy to leave the science to the scientists. I know that in the case of those who believe in God whilst understanding evolutionary processes in detail, it only serves to increase their faith. But my contention is with the way that TOE is being presented and used to challenge Creationism in this thread. Science is being used to attack theology.

I see your arguments against Creationism as carrying a very flawed approach. There isn't a detailed theory within Creationism explaining the fossil record, so there isn't anything to refute. We are not told through revelation about all details or reasons, therefore questioning God is neither here nor there. Moreover, there are many things in Creationism which science does not have the power to confirm or deny. There is also a desire to combat what is regarded as certainty (in Creationism) with doubt (debated scientific hypotheses). There also seems to be a disparity in our methodologies: in creationism, a combination of internal and external sources complement each other. If through one particular angle there is something unclear, there may be clarity through all of the others. On the other hand, proponents of evolutionism seem to limit themselves in their source of knowledge and understanding, affecting their ability to find real answers.

I see the 90ft man has been brought up a number of times. This is an example of taking something from the Creationist account and subjecting it to scientific scrutiny, which cannot always work. Muslims believe that the moon was split into two, regardless of whether science confirms or denies it; it was a miracle, so by its very nature, such an occurrence would not conform to scientific laws. God creates and does whatever He wills.
 
:salamext:

That's not really true. We have the stonehenge, huge stones placed on top of each other indicating that it was the work of some being but it is unknown how such huge stones could have been placed in such a way. The stones are too big for ordinary humans to lift. http://www.ask.com/question/how-tall-is-stonehenge
I also wondered about the ruins of Petra, and the relation to the people we have been told about in the Qur'an who carved out houses from the mountains.
 
Greetings observer,

Environments are constantly changing. Therefore, animals must change to adapt. It's that simple.

Look at giraffes - a pretty simple example. Giraffes eat leaves. As the leaves lower down trees in a certain environment are eaten, those with longer necks have access to leaves higher up. They thrive whilst shorter necked giraffes struggle. The long necked animal reproduces. It passes on its long-necked trait to its offspring. And so on.
I'm afraid this is far from being simple. The giraffe is another example of irreducible complexity. Together with a long neck, a number of other interlocked changes are required. The giraffe would need a heart that can beat faster and create a higher blood pressure to pump blood about eight feet to its head. It would also need a pressure-reducing mechanism when lowering its neck to drink. There would also be problems created by breathing through an eight-foot tube, new strategies required for escape from predators... in short, the giraffe's neck would necessitate not just one mutation but many - and these perfectly coordinated.
 
What creatures do evolutionists believe to have left the ocean and started crawling and then evolved into four legged animals?
This is a recent discovery:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/apr/06/evolution.fossils

There is no reason why a bipedal sea creature to not have existed.
The reason is that bipedalism confers no advantage underwater. In fact it was a long time before it conferred an advantage on land too - but that's another story.

The hadith only states that Adam (A.S) was some cubits tall which equal 90 feet. It does not say that all of the first humans were 90 feet tall (as far as I understand).
Eve must have been a similar height, and their children, down through the generations for some time. Otherwise we are not descended from Adam and Eve.
 
We have the stonehenge, huge stones placed on top of each other indicating that it was the work of some being but it is unknown how such huge stones could have been placed in such a way. The stones are too big for ordinary humans to lift.
Stonehenge was built by ordinary men: http://www.stonehenge.co.uk/history.php

It's also at the completely the wrong time for Adam, which needs to be about 1.8mill years earlier.
 
The reason is that bipedalism confers no advantage underwater. In fact it was a long time before it conferred an advantage on land too - but that's another story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LTWFnGmeg

roughly at 1.15 in is interesting.

..interesting because most of its behaviour is learned.. although im not sure if its personally learned.
 
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I think it is unfair to paint the picture that Creationism is blind to the obvious and to reduce its arguments to simply casting enough doubt
Creationism in principle is not a problem. Creationism in relation to TOE does use this approach, and has done since the first day 'Origin' was published.

We need to also consider how evolutionists are misleading in their selective presentation of information and evade genuine criticism.
TOE is subject to every form of criticism from the informed to the eccentric. Even in this post, you make the case for Creationism being spared scrutiny.

There also seems to be a disparity in our methodologies: in creationism, a combination of internal and external sources complement each other. If through one particular angle there is something unclear, there may be clarity through all of the others. On the other hand, proponents of evolutionism seem to limit themselves in their source of knowledge and understanding, affecting their ability to find real answers.
TOE is corroborated by many other sciences such as geology and archaeology.

I am happy to leave the science to the scientists
I acknowledge this, but not everyone is so thoughtful. Many Creationists have elected to engage with science in a highly aggressive way (such as the article posted by Zaria).
 
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not just one mutation but many
For some reason folks are under the impression that a mutation is a good thing- like an X men type change which will give super strength or something. In fact changes to DNA and genes in general has detriment.. the best we can hope for when we hear the word is a silent mutation where an alternative amino acid is inserted that doesn't cause much significant change.
Please don't buy into what these people are selling unless they give you an example- so far they're yet to do that!
 
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