A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

[aamirsaab]

This makes no sense. How does one even 'work for seeing God'? Either God can be successfully demonstrated to exist by logic and/or by science or God cannot. It really is as simple as that. This just an excuse to not give reasoning.

Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.

Pretty logical, no?

 

[Eeman]

salam alaikum bro...
your threads too long... making my head izzzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyy

 

[Aurora]

Aurora,

Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it. Would you pay someone for doing 'NO WORK'.
Do you really think its justified to pay someone who sits on his backside and does nothing all day as opposed to someone who goes out working hard all day.
Allah SWT wants to see some return for all the things he has provided us. You give Allah SWT a hand he will extend and arm, if you come to Allah SWT Walking he will come to you running.

Which God should I work for, and how should I go about working for Him? There is no way to verify the existence of the Islamic God.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

There is no way to verify the existence of the Islamic God.

you agree there is a god?...

 

[Aurora]

you agree there is a god?...

I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.

i see...

well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.

Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.

heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.

From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:

"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"

[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]

 

[Skavau]

Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.

Pretty logical, no?

There is nothing incorrect about a statement which asserts that everything that is created has a creator. However, it is not valid in this instance. It has yet to be demonstrated that what you are referring to as 'created' in this instanced is in fact - a creation. We have no reason to believe the universe was created, therefore your argument is moot.

Moreover "Everything that is created has a creator" does not necessitate that God is the creator. At least God as you assume.

 

[Grace Seeker]

i see...

well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.

This is a non-sequitor. That is the second statement (then you will know...) does not by necessity follow from the first (if you accept there is a god). The existance of a god does not mean that the god you (or I or anyone else worships) is actually the the god that exists. Proof that one's god is THE god has to be more than just a claim to having received revelation from God. If I was an atheist your proofs would mean nothing to me, for they are not a rational argument at all, but one based on solely on affect.

Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.

heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.

From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:

"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"

[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]

None of that means squat if Allah is a god of human construction rather than the god who truly exists. If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument to one who is only willing to accept the existence of a god, not necessarily your god. And that isn't meant as an attack on Allah or even your belief in Allah, but only a critique of the type of "proof" you are trying to present.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This thread is yet another to appear that highlights the massive disparity between what one group regards as "rational", "logical" or "proof", and what everyone else thinks.

Those three are probably the most frequently misused words regularly to appear on the forum.

Peace

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument

point taken on board.

the phrasing of the first bit i see was not right.

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.

The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.

It is with this i present to you the noble quran the manual sent by Allah to the whole of mankind. Within it there are numerous vverses calling on Man to look at his signs within creation and how perfect this world and universe has been created.

i invite and implore you to study and read this manual, this book of guidance sent to mankind.

 

[Aurora]

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

"O you who believe, whoever of you becomes a rebel against his deen (know that in his place) Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers, harsh towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and not fearing the blame of anyone who blames."

(Qur'an, Al-Maidah 5:54)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.

The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.

Only if that god were to care about his creation. I happen to believe that to be true of God, and therefore believe he has given us a manual to guide us, but that is a product of my belief, not proof that my belief is true.

The Greeks you will recall (and many others as well: the Inca, Maya, Vikings, Zulu, Maori, Korowai, Dani, native Hawaiians, Amayran, Mapuche, Apache, Anuit, Celts, Saxons) have believed in gods with entirely different natures; ones who didn't provide manuals and some who didn't even provide revelations. In fact the opposite of what you suggest seems to be common among animistic religions and those which emphasize the importance of shamans. Yet those groups still accomplish what you propose, that is they avoid the problems of everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions -- given the moral decay I see present in so much of both the Christian and Isalmic worlds, perhaps they do so even better than those places where it is accepted that manuals from some sort of God have been revealed.

 

[Muezzin]

Ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age. You all have computers and internet connection and are smart enough to use these devices. How can you be so stupid and believe an intelligent creature is behind it all.

Implying Bill Gates lacks intelligence is mean.

 

[Chuck]

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

God has sent prophets and His guidance, even though everybody won't agree on them. Nonetheless, prophets and guidance that God sent through them is there.

 

[ajazz]

Assalamualykum

Dark Matter is completely irrelevant to any of this, so I will just skip to the points that actually have a point

It is perfectly relevant, it is lack of understand on your part to think so.

The point is…

Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.

Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention DARK ENERGY …..

19:40 23 May 2008

“Some had hoped it might be just an illusion. But it looks like dark energy is real and here to stay”

AND THE EVEDENCE FOR IT IS BASED ON?????

“In 1998, astronomers found that distant supernovae were dimmer, and thus farther away, than expected. This suggested that the expansion of the universe is accelerating – and "dark energy" was named as the culprit.”
“Since then, astronomers have struggled to explain what dark energy actually is”
http://tinyurl.com/6h49hl



Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?

Double standards?

, you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang

.

Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.

Albert Einstein was a scientific pantheist. I do not know why you are using him as a recommend concerning evidence for the existence of Allah.

Just because if I agree with him on some of his belief does not mean that I have to subscribe to his whole belief.

. We have excellent reason to believe that there was something prior to the Big Bang. .

But no evidence.

What was there before big bang?

Multiverse, megaverse, bouncing universe, parallel universe?

The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia

All the other theory that exist other than big bang are mere conjuncture and speculation and even science fiction, there is no evidence for their support.

What scientists are doing is inventing the equations to suit their assumptions.

You see…

4 dimensions are not enough to know what was there before big bang so let’s add 6 more dimensions…the answer is not what is expected. Ok let make it 26 dimensions…..
The answer is still not what is expected, never mind.
You see the fundamental particle from which our universe is made is not spherical or point like but rather made of very very tiny tiny strings… just like guitar strings (Long live Rolling Stones)..
Yes you have heard it right! And there is more to it.
And these strings vibrate (may be to one of their favorite song of Rolling Stones)
Just like guitar string but are full of energy and so they sometime curl and form atoms or join together and may create extra dimensions and then universes are created not one two or three but many many many (this was actual result predicted by this theory)

You have just been introduced to string theory the latest and greatest theory which is supposed to be single unifying all, theory to explain everything yes everything.

Evidence be dammed, at least it will give the answer that we want!


“Peter Woit, a mathematician at Columbia University, has challenged the entire string-theory”
“String theory, he avers, has become a form of science fiction.”

http://tinyurl.com/5kuol6

Since this universe was in a state of non-existence - there must have been something that caused it to exist. The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. We only have attempts to file in holes. Asserting that God is the answer is an intellectual dead-end and supports the idea that we should be satisfied with not understanding.

Regarding evidence you will have to wait for my next post.
Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.
Today the situation is different because I think we Muslims are not practicing Islam as we should.

To which we have no evidence for. We might as well be describing the invisible pink unicorn. It would have exactly the same impact and effect for humanity.

Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.

You have provided no reason to believe that God exists much less the Islamic rendition.

And you have not read my post without prejudice.
Well, you have infinite amount of time to come up with infinite number of theories with infinite numbers of results
Good luck.

 

[ajazz]

The Islamic God is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I am yet to see any proof that such a God exists.

you deny his existence and ridicule him yet no bolt of lightening has struck you down i think this is merciful enough.

 

[Skavau]

Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.

Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.

Dark matter is not comparable to the existence of God.

Moreover, there is observational evidence behind Dark Matter.

Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?

Double standards?

Your analysis of Dark Matter and dark energy is far too short to account for the complexities and research that those who study it might go into.

Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.

Read it again, ajazz.

I said that you didn't believe there was anything before the Big Bang. I quote: "you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang "

But no evidence.

What was there before big bang?

Multiverse, megaverse, bouncing universe, parallel universe?

Arguably, we do have evidence.

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia

The Qu'ran only supports the Big Bang if you interpret it in a specific way. It is no surprise that both Muslims and Christians claim their faith supports science. This is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that religion adapts to scientific understanding.

You did not hear anyone claim the specifics of the origin of the universe prior to our understanding of the Big Bang.

Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.

Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.

I don't need to.

You describing a 'God' irrespective of details and specifics still has exactly the same effect for humanity as me describing the pink unicorn. Your irrelevant conjecture on God's attributes is not scientific, does not enhance our understanding of the universe and has no value for humanity whatsoever.

I find Theology a tired and utterly uninteresting subject.

you deny his existence and ridicule him yet no bolt of lightening has struck you down i think this is merciful enough.

Your standard of 'merciful' is very suspect. Are you implying that God not being completely intolerant to all criticism somehow ensures his merciful nature?

 

[Muezzin]

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.

Und hence, the cycle of debate continues.

 

[Skavau]

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.

I know.

Regrettably, the assertion 'something does not come from nothing' does not demonstrate God. And 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' also does not demonstrate God.