This whole discussion has become senseless because you have started to ask for proofs. How can you ask for proofs if yourself you cannot give proofs of what you say.
It is senseless to ask for proofs?!
I never said that the story of the sleepers is a historical fact that you should accept. But
you claimed that the story was man-made, which is a completely useless thing to say if it is just your personal belief and you cannot substantiate it. If you are not interested in factual discussion, then what is your point? I can say that it was revealed by God, you can say it was man-made, that isn't going to lead the discussion anywhere.
I gave you opinions which, once and for all, are not "mine" but are opinions shared by millions of people.
There are millions of people who believe that God doesn't exist - does that prove anything?
I can give you the opinion of BILLIONS of people, historians includes who believe that the story was revealed by God, but of course you want accept them because they're Muslim.
You are allowed not to accept those opinions but you are not allowed to call them lies.
If you advance your personal opinions as fact on this forum, I will consider them allegations and if they are unsubstantiated I will call them lies.
Do you say also that the Book of Mormon is true ? No you do not say that, and one could call you a liar for that and ask you for proofs.
If I went to a Mormon forum and simpy stated that the Book of Mormon is false and contains myths, they would call me a liar and they would have full right to do so, because my comments would have absolutely no purpose but to provoke.
What I am using are arguments from common sense.
Common sense?! It is common sense that the story is man-made?!
Common sense says for example that when an opinion is shared by a majority of scientists and scholars from different countries it is most probably true.
For every historian you bring me who thinks the story was false I can bring you ten historians who think the story was true.
So let's talk about something else.
Nice try, but you're not going to escape that easily. All you have ever done on this forum is post these unsubstantiated claims as though they are facts. If you're not interested in factual discussion, there's no need to talk with you at all.
Callum,
Has he really claimed them to be universal facts? I certainly wouldn't claim that.
it seems you have not read his posts. What else can we say about someone who cites this story as proof that Islam is false?
But god didn't write the Bible, did he?
Well if I wanted to prove that I would have to bring evidence. There's no point in simply stating that "the Bible is not the word of God" and then not backing up the statement. It is pointless.
I hope you see the point now.
It was written by different people over many years. (If god did write the Bible, he frequently contradicts himself, which puts a question mark over his omniscience.)
Christians would disagree with your claim that the Bible has contradictions and they would challenge you to provide examples.
Right, you have the evidence of the Qur'an, which cannot be questioned.
Of course it can be questioned. I've challenged people to bring evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of God, but the challenge remains unanswered.
The problem with mansio's claim is that there is no way for him to prove it.
True, just as there is no way for you to prove your belief.
So if you admit that mansio cannot prove that statement, please tell me, what is the point of him posting such statements all over the discussion forum? Is it going to lead to any factual discussion?
Do you honestly believe that a couple of non-muslim historian's opinion on this story constitutes complete proof that the story could not have been from God?
Of course not.
Good. So now do you see how saying "the Qur'an contains man-made stories" will serve no purpose but to provoke?
I would not claim that my belief on this matter can be proven, simply that it is far more likely that the story is a myth in the first place, and that the Qur'anic story derives from earlier sources.
The assumption here is that there is no God - an assumption which has yet to be validated. Therefore, it is impossible to speak about the probabilites not knowing if God exists or not.
Good point. The existence or non-existence of god cannot be proven, just as the veracity of this story or where it came from cannot be proven.
Right. So what do you think of a non-muslim who comes on this forum and only posts statements like "Allah does not exist" "Muhammad was a false prophet and a liar"? Don't you think we have the right for him to either provide evidence to support his allegations or to leave and keep his personal opinions to himself?
Surely you would know that the opinion of a handful of human beings in such a matter does not constitute evidence, either of its veracity or falsity.
Since I don't have any evidence from non-humans, it's the only evidence I can rely on.
The keyword in my sentence was 'opinion'.
This really sounds like a human talking, not an omniscient being.
Your opinion.
Here, it's as if god has looked at various human sources of the story and is unable to give a definitive answer on how many sleepers there were. Why should this be?
Of course God could have mentioned their number but this verse sets a very important principle for Muslims. Sometimes we argue over insignificant details and forget the main point. God was teaching us to simply say "Allah knows best" when asked about such things and to focus on the lesson behind the story. The same is true in arguing if it was Ishmael or Isaac who Abraham was going to sacrifice, or what kind of tree it was that Adam and Eve ate from.
And what is the "clear proof" referred to here?
Divine revelation.
OK, so each side in this discussion relies on evidence which the other side sees as inadmissible, or as proving nothing. The reasoning is circular on both sides, and our beliefs depend, as you rightly say, on one's view of the existence and workings of god.
My reasoning
would be circular if I said that the Qur'an is true because it contains divinely revealed stories, such as the sleepers of the cave. But I never said that.
Mansio however said, that the Qur'an is false because it contains man-made stories, such as the sleepers of the cave.
Now
that is circular reasoning and a completely pointless thing to say.
Regards
