A small suggestion

[evangel]

I would like to make a couple of suggestions. Those of you who are determined to disprove the Bible could you read it first? Many of the threads that have “new” evidence that the Bible is false would not be written in the realization that they are erroneous at best and malicious lies at their worst. Many of the threads are word for word exactly the same on other posts. See, when you read something for yourself you form thoughts and understanding. This doesn’t happen when you regurgitate some tripe that has been fed to you as fact. The next time you (and you know who I’m talking to) decide to post something you have just read, I dare you to grab the Bible and ask Allah to show you truth.
The other suggestion is about taking verses out of context. Here let me show you:
“He looked at the woman and wanted to shake her…”
This guy sounds pretty angry doesn’t he? Now how about:
“He looked at the woman and wanted to shake her and then he remembered the Heimlich maneuver and was able to save her from choking.”
A little different, huh?
Those of you doing this sort of thing must not care about appearing to be deceitful. Then again if a lie will help keep someone from taking an honest look at something then I guess you’ve accomplished your purpose.
This is not addressed to all in this forum. I appreciate the open atmosphere and my Lord has put it on my heart to enter into relationship with all who will have me. This is for those malicious souls out there who do not want to discuss but wish to cause dissension with lies.

Matthew 5:33-37 "Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’
But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

 

[Looking4Peace]

I was a Catholic and after reading the bible over and over until i was blue in the face it never ever made sense to me

Also why is it that there are so many versions of the bible and it has been changed so much with each new sect of Christianity? There were days i sat in church and the persons bible next to be had different words and verses than mine on the same page etc. Also all the rift between catholics and protestants was a turn off especially when i traveled outside of major cities and they literally treated me like a devil when finding out i was catholic. I feel the religion is too split up and there is no unity within christianity which is maybe why so many people leave the church.

Once i read the Quran reading it in english and spanish and the translations being just about exactly the same is what drew me in. This may be just one reason why I converted.


I am not trying to say it is false i am just saying it has been so altered who knows what truth lies in it anymore?

 

[lavikor201]

Most of the new bibles are the opinions on different translations since some languages have a word that has no representitive in English, so they keep trying to find a good substitute.

 

[north_malaysian]

Most of the new bibles are the opinions on different translations since some languages have a word that has no representitive in English, so they keep trying to find a good substitute.

That's why for Jews Torah must be only in Hebrew (am I right?), and for Muslims Koran must be in Arabic.... At least it's kinda 'original'

 

[Woodrow]

I believe evangel brought up a valid point. Many of us, myself included, are rash in making a statement, without showing a mutualy acceptable reason for the statement.

We need to remember, that often our statements are based on the Qur'an. If a person has neither read nor accepts the Qur'an as truth, it will not be seen as proof.

We can not "show" or "prove" , that something is false. We need to show why we believe the Qur'an to be true and then let the other person decide to accept it or disbelieve it. Simple fact, there are differences in the Bible and the Qur'an. In some area's there are great differences. Both can not be true. So it is our duty to show what we believe is true and allow the other person the freedom to decide on their own, if what they believe is true.

The opposite also hold true. We will not accept a Biblical statement as proof, since we do not believe the Bible to be fully true, in it's present form.

Something can only be shown as proof, if both views accept it as being true.

 

[Woodrow]

I just deleted a few posts. Not necessarily because they were erroneous, but because they had the potential to carry this thread off topic and into a personal arguement.

 

[Zulkiflim]

I believe evangel brought up a valid point. Many of us, myself included, are rash in making a statement, without showing a mutualy acceptable reason for the statement.

We need to remember, that often our statements are based on the Qur'an. If a person has neither read nor accepts the Qur'an as truth, it will not be seen as proof.

We can not "show" or "prove" , that something is false. We need to show why we believe the Qur'an to be true and then let the other person decide to accept it or disbelieve it. Simple fact, there are differences in the Bible and the Qur'an. In some area's there are great differences. Both can not be true. So it is our duty to show what we believe is true and allow the other person the freedom to decide on their own, if what they believe is true.

The opposite also hold true. We will not accept a Biblical statement as proof, since we do not believe the Bible to be fully true, in it's present form.

Something can only be shown as proof, if both views accept it as being true.

Salaam,

Actually for me i dont use the Quran to talk about the falseness of the Bible itself.The bible is the best testament to its own duplicity.

A trick that many chrisitan like to do when faced with a question to pull out some verse that "answer" the question but when you go to the actual chapter and versea nd read the entire artilce,it speak of different things.

So challenge them on their own book,on its own content and you will either casue them to run away or they will say " you need to beleive then to understand"...lol

But in all the argument/debate we will alwys know Islam is the truth and the Quran the essense of truth.

 

[evangel]

So challenge them on their own book,on its own content and you will either casue them to run away or they will say " you need to beleive then to understand"...lol

Try me, I promise I won't run away but I will pray you believe.


Philippians 1:8
For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ

 

[ManchesterFolk]

No one stepping up to the challenge?

 

[جوري]

Evangel... Muslims already believe in God, his messengers and his five books... No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah nor that his scriptures are null and void...in fact they confirm it all short of the fact that he was the son of God, along with many other passages that are in fact in contradiction to the original bible of Barnabas.... God called David his son as well does that mean he was his actual son? God gave Jesus the Injeel as he Gave the Moses the Torah....he gave the Psalms to David he gave the souhaf to Abraham, he gave the Quran to Mohammed peace be upon all of them [Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
there are quite many similarities the story of Joseph which is one of my favorites is almost identical to the Muslim version.... However there are many things which are none sensical in the bible... I went to catholic school for the greater part of my life, I attended mass along with other students... I had deep conversations with a priest who used to frequent the library and I found him to be a pious man... to me as to most Muslims Christians basically refused the seal of the prophets as the Jews have refused Jesus... and that is too bad because we are not telling you anything different from what Jesus said... if you read the fundamentals away from politics you'll see that to be a Muslim you need to attest to the onness of God, make prayers, fast, give Alms to the poor and make Pilgrimage to the house of God.... I believe Jesus mentioned the same.... How can you tell a false prophet from a true one? well what are they telling you? if they are affirming what was revealed before... and finalizing the way of worship... chances are.... they are not doing it for glory... but in the name of the one God...Muslims don't malign the characters of the prophets nor spit at his books in mockery the way the west deals with prophet Mohammed and the noble Quran peace

 

[dougmusr]

No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah

I thought Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet.

We make no distinction between any of His messengers

What does it mean for Jesus to be a prophet and also the Messiah, and how does calling Jesus the Messiah not make a distinction between Him and other prophets? Were all of them Messiahs?

 

[جوري]

I thought Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet.?

WE do believe he was a prophet....

What does it mean for Jesus to be a prophet and also the Messiah, and how does calling Jesus the Messiah not make a distinction between Him and other prophets? Were all of them Messiahs?

what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?

 

[north_malaysian]

WE do believe he was a prophet....



what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?

Al Masih means 'the promised one'

 

[جوري]

No bros... it really means "anointed" I am fluent in Arabic.... to rub with fragrance oil... when we say the word Masikh aldjal... look for the meaning of the word it isn't just "anti-Christ"... his description is in the name itself... Arabic is a mighty powerful language....you can ask a scholar to validate... since Allah always knows best....

 

[Phil12123]

Evangel... Muslims already believe in God, his messengers and his five books... No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah nor that his scriptures are null and void...in fact they confirm it all short of the fact that he was the son of God, along with many other passages that are in fact in contradiction to the original bible of Barnabas.... God called David his son as well does that mean he was his actual son? God gave Jesus the Injeel as he Gave the Moses the Torah....he gave the Psalms to David he gave the souhaf to Abraham, he gave the Quran to Mohammed peace be upon all of them [Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
there are quite many similarities the story of Joseph which is one of my favorites is almost identical to the Muslim version.... However there are many things which are none sensical in the bible... I went to catholic school for the greater part of my life, I attended mass along with other students... I had deep conversations with a priest who used to frequent the library and I found him to be a pious man... to me as to most Muslims Christians basically refused the seal of the prophets as the Jews have refused Jesus... and that is too bad because we are not telling you anything different from what Jesus said... if you read the fundamentals away from politics you'll see that to be a Muslim you need to attest to the onness of God, make prayers, fast, give Alms to the poor and make Pilgrimage to the house of God.... I believe Jesus mentioned the same.... How can you tell a false prophet from a true one? well what are they telling you? if they are affirming what was revealed before... and finalizing the way of worship... chances are.... they are not doing it for glory... but in the name of the one God...Muslims don't malign the characters of the prophets nor spit at his books in mockery the way the west deals with prophet Mohammed and the noble Quran peace

Greetings, Ambrosia. I have highlighted in bold type some things you said that I would like to comment on. I don't want to go off thread and have Woodrow delete my post (lol), though it is hard to say what is ON thread, except the two suggestions evangel has made--read the Bible for yourself and understand what you read by its context.

Christians go by what the Bible says, generally. Sometimes we may add some thoughts of our own, but basically our authority would be the Bible. The problem that often arises in Christian/Muslim dialogues is that Muslims reject the Bible and Christians reject anything in the Quran that teaches something contrary to the Bible. Muslims have been taught that the Bible is unreliable, contradictory, not the Word of God, etc., etc., so although the Bible came first, the Quran, which came hundreds of years later, is accepted as true by Muslims even if it contradicts the Bible. Now it would seem that the burden of showing the earlier scripture is not accurate or true would be on whoever says something later is more accurate or true. I have seen NO proof from any Muslim that what we have today as the Bible is not, largely if not entirely, what the original gospels, epistles, etc. said when they were first written. It all seems like just a convenient way to deny earlier scripture in favor of something later that is different, to say the earlier, as we have it, is not what it originally said.

You mention "the original bible of Barnabas." What is that? Some letter purported to have been written by Barnabas, a contemporary of Paul? Have you read it? Do you accept that as "the original bible" that the Quran does not contradict? Is that what Christians are supposed to hold as their authority, in your opinion?

You mention the psalms given to David, and yet one of the Moderators rejects what David said in Psalms 51 where he confesses his sin (adultery with Bath-sheba, etc.) and asks God to forgive him, because of some "Muslim belief" about the "infallibility of the prophets". So are the Psalms and the book of 2nd Samuel corrupted too??? If we can't go by what we have written there, why have it?

You say God gave Jesus the Injeel and yet we can't even agree on what that included! The Bible would say the Injeel, or Gospel, is that Christ died for our sins and rose again. And yet Muslims reject that because of what their later scriptures say. So how do we have a meaningful dialogue when we have no common ground as to (1) what is true scripture from God, and therefore, (2) what we should believe or reject?

It does you little good to read the Bible for yourself and in context if you reject it as untrue to begin with. If we had ONE scripture we could all agree is really the Word of God and just had differing interpretations, we could at least have some common ground for discussion---this is what it means vs. that is what it means. But the "it" would be the same.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best... for starters.... YES... I have read the original bible of Barnbas http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=26
I have a copy here at home.... MY dad has a doctorate in history ... so before my in depth look at religion I studied history.... I have every religion and ideology book known to man in my library that is not to say I have studied Shintoism in depth but we don't censor books in this house. I believe full-heartedly that travel and reading are the biggest combatants of ignorance and folk tale.... I can answer your Q from a historical perspective and we'd get into Arius, Athanasius And St. Paul or from a religious perspective and it would be a very long discussion if it is to be sincere, without temper flares..... I firmly believe that we are complicated psychological beings ... in order for you to accept something, you'd have to be presented it without any prior bias... I don't know that, that is possible for any of us realistically speaking.... So to answer your question from the Quran I believe I quoted in the previous post, those aren't my words but the word of God, that we Muslims 2:285-------(so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers -------" but also in the Quran it states and in this same sura.... [Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
so, unless you are a historian with a keen discerning eye for events as they happened stripped from politics and religion can you really get an understanding of why the bible or the Torah are what have evolved into what they are today.... I read the Psalms when I was in 9th grade so I couldn't get into any specifics of what is true or what isn't.... I can't claim that I am a scholar.... I am learning on these forums as much as you...In life you should seek knowledge from People of knowledge.... I don't wish to venture into spheres that are NOT in my field of studies..... I hope that helped?

 

[Phil12123]

Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best...
..... I hope that helped?

No, Ambrosia, it didn't really help much. I checked out the link and also read much of the "Gospel of Barnabas" which is clearly "another gospel" as Paul said in Gal. 1:

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Whoever concocted that "Gospel" (certainly not Barnabas, the contemporary of Paul) is, according to the above verses, accursed, or eternally condemned.

If you want something that was more likely written by the real Barnabas, you might check out The Epistle of Barnabas at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lake.html. Read Chapter 5, especially.

When you get more time, please go back over my original post and comment on it, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Sorry it didn't help you much.... I have the actual bible here at home and don't need to find it through a website Muslim or Christian....... I am not sure what you'd like me to comment on? or write ... you have the bible now do you need to follow the Jewish scriptures even though Jesus came to abrogate some of what was written in there and set new rules for you? my first impulse is to say NO ... you can refute that if you want but you are not denouncing the old testament you are just not following it ... same thing with Islam ... we have the Quran.... we are not denunciating any of God's messengers nor their books but I don't need to practice my prayers as an example the Christian way with the church choir, while I enjoy the artistic part of it... I like museums... I like stained gl*** windows... I even like the candles... I don't think that is how Jesus prayed ... in fact the man was poor he self professed that the sky was his blanket and the earth was his bed ... to me that is a far cry from the opulence of the church... I think he'd pray the way Muslims do that is my opinion ... the finite details you want to have discussed as in with the Psalms or what have you ... you really need to examine with a more discerning eye with someone who is a scholar... I already stated I'll not go outside my sphere of knowledge ... my way of living isn't contingent on a psalm ... when there is much in the bible that Christians themselves ignore stating that it is are archaic.... I am sorry you don't accept Islam as a message from God ... but I am very satisfied with my choice for religion.
warmest regards

 

[Fishman]

The gospel of Barnabas probably isn't the original. It's closer to Muslim beliefs, but it is really contradictory, and denies that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah, contradicting Muslim belief.

 

[*Hana*]

Peace to you Phil:

I get a tad frustrated with your line of thinking, which seems to be common amongst many Christians.

You insinuate that as reverts or those that leave Christianity we do so because we don't have an understanding of the bible or have never studied it and tried to understand. I, for one, can ***ure you that I have definitely studied the bible and continue to study it to this day. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is because of our understanding we left Christianity? Did you ever think that maybe we are realizing something you are not? Did you ever wonder if you're following blindly instead of logically?

Whether the Gospel of Barnabus is the original Barnabus Gospel leaves much doubt, but either way it doesn't change the fact that there are problems with the biblical text as it is today. That Gospel, authentic or not, won't change that.

You said yourself you follow the bible, GENERALLY, with some of your own thoughts. How is this following the word of God? Why don't you follow the bible as it's written without additions? You see, this is exactly the problem Christian reverts, many of us anyway, have with biblical text. Too many thoughts have been added and the original messages are lost. Imagine the number of people that have done exactly that over the past 2000 years. Scribes/Copyists all adding thoughts in an attempt to either make things more clear or to intentionally alter meaning. All you have to do is look at the different bibles. I'm not referring to translations, I mean actual bibles. One bible with 66 books, one with 73, etc. Keeping in mind, that during various councils these books have changed with some that had once been accepted being rejected and vice versa. It's not only the contradictions or errors found in the text of today, it goes far deeper than that. It is not only important to look at the text, but you must also look at the history. Who wrote what? Who gave authority to whom? What is proven as authentic and what part has its authenticity questioned and why? Which is inspired and which is not? Christian and Biblical scholars know there are textual problems, serious problems, it is not just Muslims that question some of these things.

So, please don't think we revert or leave Christianity on a whim. For many of us it is extremely difficult to face the truth. It took me 3 years to accept it, but I believe with all my heart and soul, Islam is the truth and the Qur'an is the true word of God.

As far as the Injeel in its original form as it was revealed to Jesus, pbuh, you will never find it because if it had ever been committed in written form it has long since been destroyed or lost. But, there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in His lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Not to mention translations of translations of translations. We have plenty of reasons to question the validity of the bible as we see it today.

But, whether you choose to look for yourself or continue to follow without questioning is entirely up to you. Just because many respected Christian and Biblical scholars question these things, doesn't mean they lose their faith either. But, they want to find the truth and I'm sure their hopes are to bring the bible closer to the original words as possible. I truly believe if that were done, you would see very little difference between Christianity and Islam.

Ok, just throwing in my 2-cents for what it's worth. lol

Peace to you,
Hana