[MENTION=20217]Zafran[/MENTION]
I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.
Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?
Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.
There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?
[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION]
You see , when you talk about the compiled holy book, there are different concepts of it.For Muslims, Quran is 100% word of God, if you look at the Bible its more akin a mix of some "Quran" & some "hadith", for the Granth Sahib I think it consists of revelations, some inspirations & some poems from contemporaries etc. Of course khuwaja Fared ud deen is not their Guru/messenger and they know that. Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia).
Thanks
I will comment on what i am able to for now although there is so much information here that requires correction - and edit and add a bit later inshaAllah :swt:
The book revealed to Musa strictly forbids certain things - yet the Prophets sulaiman and jesus interpreted much and put it in perspective by taking into account word and spirit based on wisdom and obedience to Allah.
What has come to us of the Bible (although it has been interpolated much by people of varying intentions) states that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had decorative images built, there are many historical accounts of these sphynxes and other decorations scattered in writings of locals and travellers.
The Quran confirms that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had images and huge basins etc built by jinns and divers, and that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had been granted wisdom by Allah - and in some cases the correct understanding of matters of judgement above his father David :as: although both were granted wisdom.
فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ (21:79)
for, [though] We made Solomon understand the case [more profoundly] yet We vouchsafed unto both of them sound judgment and knowledge [of right and wrong]. [71] And We caused [72] the mountains to join David in extolling Our limitless glory, and likewise the birds: [73] for We are able to do [all things]. - 21:79 (Asad) -
So there is no wisdom in attempting to create a "fans of the father" and "fans of the son" schism by using incomplete testimony - since Allah the Perfect and Most Wise who knows what is best sent both David and Sulaiman, granted wisdom to both, and made one excel over the other (this can be seen in tree and horse breeding), and both father and son sometimes made mistakes and errors in judgement too since they are after all human.
These strict and non-strict divine commands, wise judgemental interpretations by Prophets sent by Allah, and mistakes by the same Prophets, also carry a statement - in that people must always be busy seeking the truth according to the given situation based on all the lawful and truthful information they have - and more if they can lawfully get it - and should be making wise decisions and appointing wise leaders to make collective decisions for them.
Those who use their good judgement and wisdom will also come to the realization that obedience to Allah and seeking of His goodwill is the only possible way of achieving stable success.
Those who go too far in their own judgement to the extent that they reject and oppose Allah -will fall into the party of Iblees and will be rejected by Allah :swt: Himself and will fail when it comes to the weighing with just judgement with the scales on the day of judgement.
It is flawed to claim that a person who
chooses a certain option based on all the knowledge he/she has with wisdom, and with obedience to Allah and the seeking of His face as his/her primary plumbline
- is taking the judgement of the Quran over the judgement of the hadith and is thereby rejecting the Prophet :saws: , or is taking the judgement of the ahadith over the judgement of the Quran and thereby rejecting Allah :swt: , and the same goes with all information.
This is the reason why people who choose wise leaders who judge from all pools of vast truthful knowledge are the most successful.
And people and leaders who measure whether their decision will fit with Allah's guidance and good pleasure (halaal, lawful, acceptable, tolerable) - a concept that derives from TAQWA - will usually end up making the best and most stable decisions.
Those who claim that the Quran/hadeeth/bible/pythagoras/darwin/newton/enid blyton shouldn't be accepted because it's not "our book" are actually like the blind men who went to the zoo to find out how an elephant possibly looks - and then came back and then killed each other until all of them were dead - because one shouted angrily that it was flat like a banana leaf, another that it was long and thick like a python, another that it was big and stout like a tree trunk - and yet another that it was brittle and sharp like a spear. Whereas if they had gotten together to speak truthfully and to sincerely understand it having left arrogance behind -they would inevitably have ended up unanimously describing an elephant.
We (interviewees) were made to put mr/mrs potato head together at our group assessment for Orange in my college days and they (assessors) took it apart and put it under the table cloth and allowed us each to use only one hand, it came out a bit wonky - but they were actually assessing our team working ability and skills. (I got the job and ended up thieving with credit cards and then ran away after they pressed charges, they were still kind enough to drop the charges though - much respect).
Anyways, the Mother of the Book by which oceans of ink would be exhausted is what contains all information and the Quran is a tiny -though very important and essential- part of it, this is why we have to learn 2+2=4 from mum and dad or whoever they hire to teach us it, and this is why we observe a cat if we want to learn how it wipes it's ar$e.
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Edit:
Here is the Quranic account of the command by Allah to the Prophet :saws: to strengthen his heart from slanders by remembering the cases - including strengths and weaknesses, successes and failings, and above all -the turning to Allah - of other Prophets before him:
17. Have patience at what they say, and remember our servant David, the man of strength: for he ever turned (to Allah..
18. It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day,
19. And the birds gathered (in assemblies): all with him did turn (to Allah..
20. We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him wisdom and sound judgment in speech and decision.
21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not: we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other: Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. “This man is my brother: He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one: Yet he says, ‘commit her to my care,’ and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech.”
24. (David) said: “He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes: truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other: Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?”…and David gathered that We had tried him: he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
25. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.
27. Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!
28. Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the same as those who do mischief on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil, the same as those who turn aside from the right?
29. (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they may mediate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.
30. To David We gave Solomon (for a son),- How excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)!
31. Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot;
32. And he said, “Truly do I love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord,”- until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night):
33. “Bring them back to me.” then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks.
34. And We did try Solomon: We placed on his throne a body (without life); but he did turn (to Us in true devotion):
35. He said, “O my Lord! Forgive me, and grant me a kingdom which, (it may be), suits not another after me: for Thou art the Grantor of Bounties (without measure).
36. Then We subjected the wind to his power, to flow gently to his order, Whithersoever he willed,-
37. As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
38. As also others bound together in fetters.
39. “Such are Our Bounties: whether thou bestow them (on others) or withhold them, no account will be asked.”
40. And he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful Place of (Final) Return.
From Quran, Chapter 38.
If we look at the case of idols and like images we find amongst many other examples:
وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ غُدُوُّهَا شَهْرٌ وَرَوَاحُهَا شَهْرٌ وَأَسَلْنَا لَهُ عَيْنَ الْقِطْرِ وَمِنَ الْجِنِّ مَن يَعْمَلُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِ وَمَن يَزِغْ مِنْهُمْ عَنْ أَمْرِنَا نُذِقْهُ مِنْ عَذَابِ السَّعِيرِ
And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
يَعْمَلُونَ لَهُ مَا يَشَاءُ مِن مَّحَارِيبَ وَتَمَاثِيلَ وَجِفَانٍ كَالْجَوَابِ وَقُدُورٍ رَّاسِيَاتٍ اعْمَلُوا آلَ دَاوُودَ شُكْرًا وَقَلِيلٌ مِّنْ عِبَادِيَ الشَّكُورُ
They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basins as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Quran 34:12-13
The relaxing of the law given to Musa by Allah :swt: through a Prophet subject to Allah proclaiming: "think not that i am come to void the law but to fulfill it"....
.
3:48 And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.
3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.”
3:50
(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your
Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
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43:63
When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.”
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وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ أَتَتَّخِذُ أَصْنَامًا آلِهَةً إِنِّي أَرَاكَ وَقَوْمَكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ
And when Abraham said to his father Azar: "Do you take images as objects of worship? I see you and your people in clear perversion."
وَكَذَٰلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُوقِنِينَ
Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty:
فَلَمَّا جَنَّ عَلَيْهِ اللَّيْلُ رَأَىٰ كَوْكَبًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَا أُحِبُّ الْآفِلِينَ
When the night covered him over, He saw a planet/star: He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set."
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الْقَمَرَ بَازِغًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَئِن لَّمْ يَهْدِنِي رَبِّي لَأَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الضَّالِّينَ
When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ
When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
إِنِّي وَجَّهْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّذِي فَطَرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا أَنَا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
Indeed I have faced my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by logical nature upright, and I am not of those who join others as partners with Allah.
Quran 6:74-79
Narrated Ar-Rubi' bint Mu'awadh:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) sent a messenger to the village of the Ansar in the morning of the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) to announce: 'Whoever has eaten something should not eat but complete the fast, and whoever is observing the fast should complete it.' "She further said, "Since then we used to fast on that day regularly and also make our boys fast. We used to make toys of wool for the boys and if anyone of them cried (out of hunger for) food, he was given those toys till it was the time of the breaking of the fast."
حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرُ بْنُ الْمُفَضَّلِ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنِ الرُّبَيِّعِ بِنْتِ مُعَوِّذٍ، قَالَتْ أَرْسَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَدَاةَ عَاشُورَاءَ إِلَى قُرَى الأَنْصَارِ " مَنْ أَصْبَحَ مُفْطِرًا فَلْيُتِمَّ بَقِيَّةَ يَوْمِهِ، وَمَنْ أَصْبَحَ صَائِمًا فَلْيَصُمْ ". قَالَتْ فَكُنَّا نَصُومُهُ بَعْدُ، وَنُصَوِّمُ صِبْيَانَنَا، وَنَجْعَلُ لَهُمُ اللُّعْبَةَ مِنَ الْعِهْنِ، فَإِذَا بَكَى أَحَدُهُمْ عَلَى الطَّعَامِ أَعْطَيْنَاهُ ذَاكَ، حَتَّى يَكُونَ عِنْدَ الإِفْطَارِ.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1960
In-book reference : Book 30, Hadith 67
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 31, Hadith 181
(deprecated numbering scheme)
I'm certain those toys weren't long legged barbie dolls which little boys stare at and sometimes uncover to look at...... - but am finding it difficult to imagine what they could most likely have been other than basic toy camels/sheep/dolls.
Anyone who's struggled with the concept of children's cartoons would have an idea of what i'm talking about.
But again, that wouldn't be the same as drawing nude images of strange women or men would it?
Then a line would have to be drawn (excuse the unintended irony) or each case looked into separately - a lot of work for judges - but easy only if the people's hearts have been tuned to obedience of Allah :swt: correctly.
What about decorative statues in villages and cities - there's something a bit like it mentioned here:
123. The ‘Ad (people) rejected the apostles.
124. Behold, their brother Hud said to them: “Will ye not fear ((Allah))?
125. “I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:
126. “So fear Allah and obey me.
127. “No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
128. “Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?
129. “And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?
130. “And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?
131. “Now fear Allah, and obey me.
132. “Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.
133. “Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-
134. “And Gardens and Springs.
135. “Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day.”
136. They said: “It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!
137. “This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,
138. “And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!”
139. So they rejected him, and We destroyed them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
140. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.
From Quran, Chapter 126
The only idea i can get from it is that if Sulaiman was trapping jinns with the material he had confiscated, he was only using it for Allah's work in obedience to Him
Wa maa kafara Sulaimaan wa laa kinna ash-Shayatueena kafaroo.
And Sulaimaan did not ungratefully reject Allah, but the satans ungratefully rejected Allah.
And if he was making sphynxes as decor for Allah's house - he was only doing it with the intention of pleasing Allah :swt: , and this doesn't make the action a ruling - since he may possibly have fallen short in judgement as anybody is prone to do.
It was ultimately a test for him and for the people, just as every ruling, abrogation, success, and failure is -on the path to wisdom until the day of judgement.
When Prophet Muhammad :saws: cut down the trees of Banu Nadeer despite the general condemnation of such an act in the Quran - he was doing it in obedience to Allah despite the written word - and then after much talking by the people - the confirmation by Allah proved his judgement to be correct (ch 59).
What remains is for people to take in information and process it well whilst seeking to do what is best in Allah's sight whilst hoping for His mercy and fearing His wrath - simply playing with words will not guard against Allah's wrath if an action displeases Him due to being unjust - nor will foolishly adhering to a written ruling without wisdom despite the legality of an act in Allah's sight.
The Torah stoning rulings and the birth of Jesus should have proven that.
The statements and rulings of the Prophet :saws: some of which add to Quranic rulings - and some of which appear to contradict but actually do not contradict Allah - are made as a mercy and not ultimately for confusion - and that is not the end of wisdom.
The multiple "U-turns" and added rulings found in the revealed books and actions of the Prophets are also a mercy and a consolation to leaders who would otherwise be reluctant to change their rulings out of fear of being accused of folly.
And a means of making us realize that each circumstance and level of knowledge is different - and that we should always be prepared to obey Allah inspite of our possible past misunderstandings.
Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.” (Hicr 15:28-29)
Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.”(Sad 38:71-72)
(We said) To the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”, All of them but Iblis did obeisance. He refused, he was proud, and he became one of the unbelievers.(Bakara 2:34)
And certainly We created you, then We gave you your shape, and then We said to the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”. All except Iblis did obeisance; he was not of those who did obeisance. (Araf 7:11)
We had told the angels: “Prostrate to Adam” All of them except Iblis did prostrate. He said: “Shall I prostrate to him whom You have created of dust?” (Isra 17:61)
The Answer of Iblis
He said: “What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you?” He answered thus: “You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust. I am better than he.” (Araf 7:12)
Allah said: “O Iblis! What hindered you from being with those who make obeisance?
He said: “I am not such that I could make obeisance to a mortal whom You have created of black mud. (Hicr 15:32-33)
Allah said: “O Iblis! What prevented you from doing obeisance to him whom I have created with My power? Are you proud, or are you of the exalted ones?”
Iblis said: “I am better than he; You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust.
Allah said: “Then get out of there; for sure you are one of those who have been driven away. And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment/religion.”(Sad 38:75-78)
A "U-turn"?
Or a question of obedience to Allah :swt: and acceptance of His wisdom above our own?
