About stoning....

[syed_z]

Asalaam O Alaikum... i was going to post this on the thread which was just closed "Iranian women stoned ?" ...... please do not close this one.... because i just would like to clarify what i know of stoning in Islam....





1st of all we need to see what Happened to Adam and Eve.. in order to know what has always been Satan's favorite Trap....


The sense of Shame which keeps us humans modest, was attacked by Shaytan the 1st time he tried to take that away from Adam and Eve....


(7:22) Thus Satan brought about their fall by deceit. And when they tasted of the tree, their shame became vislible to them, and both began to cover themselves with leaves from the Garden.


The 1st attack of Shaytan was to take away the Shame and modesty from Adam and Eve and expose themselves. Since lewdity, nudity, vulgarity which all lead to illegal sexual intercourse, has always been Shaytan's main weapon, the 2010 age of "progress" that many referring to has Prostitution as One of the Top Most money making businesses around the world, after Drugs and Weapons market....

Since many are too quick to say , this is an "Evil ancient Practice"... could they please suggest any ways of dealing with the Evil of illegal fornication which does not only happen, but has become a business and many women around the world are forced in it .....

So the Age of "Progress" has actually led towards mankind destruction..... i know that there werent Nuclear Bombs in 610 CE.... neither was there an Economic System collapse which takes the Whole World down, as soon as it happens in a few countries.... i guess we should have read the Statement of Fidel Castro about this New Age which many think is great...



“Never before did mankind have such formidable scientific and technologic potential, such
extraordinary capacity to produce riches and well-being, but never before were disparity and
inequity so profound in the world.” He responded to this economic oppression by declaring
that: “Another Nuremberg is required to judge the unjust economic order.”


(Text of his Presidential Address, Summit Conference, Group of 77, Havana, September 2000)




The stoning to Death which is spoken of is in the Hadith Literature and is Part of the Sunnah...the reason behind the Stoning is NOT pleasure as the Western World, portrays.... rather the Whole concept of stoning to death is only to prevent the Evils from increasing in the Society which would weaken the Social Fabric of it....

1st of all stoning is for those people who are married Couples.... because if they go outside and commit fornication and if there is NOT a tough penalty to stop it, then there would be many Married couples who would freely do such stuff and get away with it.... and so would destroy the family system which is key to success for a society...


2nd... The concept of stoning is that the person admits...if the wife blames the husband and husband blames the wife and no witnesses then they have to invoke Gods curses on themselves in front of the Qazi (Muslim Judge), if they are lieing that they did commit....... about witness have to witness the case just like in the case of non married people commit fornication.... for example... they have to see it happening ACTUALLY and not just see them together, meaning they have to actually see it happening... and if any one of the 4 witnesses have a bad record or have been liars then their witness will not get accepted.....


so there are many conditions... now When a person came to Prophet (Saw) and confessed and wanted to get stoned he was stoned. But why did he want to get stoned ? Because he felt that he wanted to repent... the stoning is done to purify the person... Our Muslims, earthly Existence is connected to our Hereafter... all us Muslims... our Social, economic, education, every thing is connected to our Hereafter, and that is why A Muslims aim and objective is to succeed in the Hereafter for which they have to shape their lives in this world accordingly...



Sulaiman b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma, iz b. Malik came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said to him: Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you, go back, ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, then came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Woe be upon you, go back and ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, when he came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said as he had said before. When it was the fourth time, Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) said: From what am I to purify you? He said: From adultery, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) asked if he had been mad. He was informed that he was not mad. He said: Has he drunk wine? A person stood up and smelt his breath but noticed no smell of wine. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Have you committed adultery? He said: Yes. He made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death. The people had been (divided) into two groups about him (Ma'iz). One of them said: He has been undone for his sins had encompassed him, whereas another said: There is no repentance more excellent than the repentance of Ma'iz, for he came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and placing his hand in his (in the Holy Prophet's) hand said: Kill me with stones. (This controversy about Ma'iz) remained for two or three days. Then came Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to them (his Companions) as they were sitting. He greeted them with salutation and then sat down and said: Ask forgiveness for Ma'iz b. Malik. They said: May Allah forgive Ma'iz b. Malik. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He (Ma'iz) has made such a repentance that if that were to be divided among a people, it would have been enough for all of them.

(sahih Muslim Book 017 4205)



So when Muhammad (Saw) heard they were praying for his repentance, he immediately informed them that Maiz's repentance was accepted by Allah and he was in the best place, and was purified of what he had committed, and not only that, but his receiving Allah's forgiveness and mercy was so huge, that it would have been sufficient for a whole bunch of people, a tribe..... so this is the Actual reason for Stoning... NOT to have pleasure or this is Ignorance, no this is the way to purify from sinsand stop the evil in the society from spreading ..... even though Muhammad (Saw) gave him the chance of going away but he wanted to get stoned, and therefore he was stoned.....

My Question to those Muslims who think of it as wrong and others who are targeting this practice, do you have any other Punishment which would stop this Evil which has become an International Business.... and if you do, you have to prove how that works... and also show us the effects... otherwise, you have NO right to say that such practice is wrong, because then your ignorant...

 

[Salahudeen]

Mashallah brother but this is the 21st centurary the laws of Islam are barbaric and belong in the time 1400 years ago. We're in the 21 century where people have developed an immunity to sin and therefore the harsh punishments that act as deterrents no longer apply, the laws of the west are better and more up to date, people are not the same as they were 1400 years ago, they no longer desire to sin and be evil so we don't need the harsh punishments, hey maybe these kuffar man made rules were even inspired by Allah COME ON DUDE WE'RE IN THE 21ST CENTRUARY ISLAMIC LAW IS NO LONGER VIABLE. We should at least water it down!! and say the punishment for adultry is being hit with a tennis ball or having a football kicked at you this is a more befitting punishment for adultery I mean come on why kill some 1 for destroying a family??

JUST KIDDING before some 1 bites my head off. It was all sarcasm.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salam

I don’t have a problem with the teaching that has been taught to me all my life. I understand is more of a deterrent then a punishment and highly unlikely to be caught by four people.
I do have a problem with the examples set by ummah. The people in the time of prophet peace be upon him was pious, god fearing individuals. I can’t say the same thing about ummah this day and age.

I think those that do have a problem with the punishment are stem from the examples they see as Sharia law, even though it really isn’t.

I wanted to know the answer to this question:
If someone unbelievable does get caught by four witnesses, and he/she shows remorse, can they be forgiven? And those four witnesses have obligation towards Allah (swt) to report?

 

[Snowflake]

Ah, al hamdulillah! I'll post what I didn't post on the other stoning thread.

????? It doesn't. Smaller stones are used so the sheer pain can be felt, where as if larger stones were used a quick death would be inevidable. Regardless of whether what stone is used or how its done. Its wrong and a sadistic thing to do.

The stones used are palm size. That’s a big stone. Considering there’s quite a crowd doing the stoning, it won’t be long before the person is knocked unconscious. But, if you think stoning/flogging is inhumane, then what other method should be used as a deterrent?


Due to there being no shariah law in most muslim communities, immorality in muslim communities is increasing. It has already reached escalating heights in the West. Thousands of non muslim mothers are crying for help because their 12 year old daughters are sleeping with men for money, clothes and fun? These young girls have had sexual relations with more men than the years they've been on this earth. Some end up pregnant. Some with STDs, and all of them emotionally scarred for life. And that's the unmarried ones.


This is what happens when immoral behaviour isn't nipped in the bud. No deterrents. No fear. Al hamdulillah unlike the West most muslims still adhere to the same beliefs that keep the disintegration of society at bay. And even if in most places where muslims live, there is no shariah law, we still remember the punishments (as reminders) in our hearts, which although not metted out physically, still remain to be deterrents mentally and spiritually.



Where there are no deterrents, things have reached rock bottom. But no matter how bad a society gets, no person can continue to commit sin and not feel guilty. That is by man's very own nature that his sins will make him suffer will various ways. Some drink, do drugs, or even commit more sins to take their mind of the previous ones. Nature's way of alerting us to something we did wrong is to make us feel guilty. That's why people end up confessing to extra marital affairs/murders and lesser crimes. Man cannot shoulder the burden of his sins. He has to relieve himself of it somehow, and most commonly it's by confessing. Where promiscuity is rife, the guilt is also greater. Every day hordes of men and women are confessing to adultery, cheating and the like. It’s really sad to see an innocent baby’s mother telling her husband, that their baby may not be his. He’s told that the child he loved more than his own life might not even be his! So off they go for a paternity test. The paternity test shows he is not the father. Tears. Anger. Then woman says who she thinks is the father. So off they go for another paternity test. Lo and behold, that man also isn't the baby's father. Uh oh! Believe it or not, in most such cases require multiple tests, and in most the baby's father still isn't found! Up to 30, 40 and even 50 tests! Ya Allah! The non muslim West is littered with tarts, including male ones. If you don't believe me - ask Maury Povich. He organises such tests! I’ve seen so many of these shows in the past, it’s like being stuck in ground hog day. The people never stop coming. The sins stay the same, only the faces change – although most seem to have bought a seasons ticket to keep returning.



How many babies are born as a result of fornication/adultery and will grow up not knowing who the father is, and with the possibility of marrying their own brother or sister? The kuffar brush off their actions by saying there’s nothing wrong in what they do as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. Anyone can see that’s rubbish. Immorality is destroying so many lives, not to mention how much of tax payers money goes to fixing the ills of these societies. Instead of looking to deterrents, the West ploughs even more of our money into plastering the cracks. Way to go West!



Stoning/lashing may seem cruel, no one can say it’s not effective as a deterrent. Shariah also requires four witnesses to convict a person of adultery. What are the chances of that four people witnessing illegal sexual intercourse? Pfft! Death by stoning is rare! I know of more people who were killed on a night out to the pub than by stoning! But that's acceptable I guess. With harsh deterrents, those who are tempted to commit adultery/fornication will think twice and save society from turning into total hell-hole. It’s sad to think that no one bats an eyelid when thousands and millions of people commit lewd and immoral behaviour and ruin lives. It’s ok for a mother to leave her young children and run off with the milkman. It’s ok for the father to have an affair with his wife’s sister. Hell, even mothers have not spared their own daughter’s husbands/boyfriends. Yet all this is allowed to go unchecked. No one cares about the trail of destruction and broken lives left behind. But the moment they hear there is actually a penalty and deterrent for such a behaviour, there is uproar and condemnation of what is actually a great medicine for societies’ ills.


Taken from original article posted by the O.P: "It is notable that this kind of punishment has rarely been implemented in Iran and various means and remedies must be probed and exhausted to finally come up with such a punishment,"



No one wants people to commit a sin that warrantees such a punishment. Not scholars. Not us. But if that's the only way to keep society clean from the filth that's prevalent in the West, then so be it. We can't risk destroying whole communities over a few individuals.



:wa:

 

[Maryan0]

Uh oh! Believe it or not, in most such cases require multiple tests, and in most the baby's father still isn't found! Up to 30, 40 and even 50 tests! Ya Allah! The non muslim West is littered with tarts, including male ones. If you don't believe me - ask Maury Povich. He organises such tests! I’ve seen so many of these shows in the past, it’s like being stuck in ground hog day. The people never stop coming. The sins stay the same, only the faces change – although most seem to have bought a seasons ticket to keep returning.

:

lol @ Maury. Good post.
It's interesting like the brother AlexIslam mentioned that the Quran does not mention stoning at all... Inshallah this topic clarifies this
Salam

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Some Muslim countries do still punish adultery with stonning. Iran is obvious example.

Shariah also requires four witnesses to convict a person of adultery. What are the chances of that four people witnessing illegal sexual intercourse? Pfft! Death by stoning is rare!

I already told him this and others also. No one should see Iran as following Shariah, they are not and the woman in recent news is deemed innocent in Sharia law anyways.

 

[Maryan0]

There was a verse about stoning in quran that was abrogated.... Why would ALLAH abrogate a verse when HE wanted to keep the ruling...!!!

HE abrogated the verse because that ruling was NO longer ment to be applied...

Narated By Ash-Shaibani : I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa about the Rajam (stoning somebody to death for committing illegal sexual intercourse). He replied, "The Prophet carried out the penalty of Rajam," I asked, "Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?" He replied, "I do not know."
When this new revelation that was revealed later applies so does the nullification of abrogated verse applies....

What do you think of the situation where a lady came to the prophet numerous times in order to be stoned and he kept sending her away with excuses but she was eventually stoned. Is that story false to you? and was the penalty of rajam the prophet carried out before the said verse was abrogated in regards to this lady?
Salam

 

[Lynx]

Ah, al hamdulillah! I'll post what I didn't post on the other stoning thread.



The stones used are palm size. That’s a big stone. Considering there’s quite a crowd doing the stoning, it won’t be long before the person is knocked unconscious. But, if you think stoning/flogging is inhumane, then what other method should be used as a deterrent?


Due to there being no shariah law in most muslim communities, immorality in muslim communities is increasing. It has already reached escalating heights in the West. Thousands of non muslim mothers are crying for help because their 12 year old daughters are sleeping with men for money, clothes and fun? These young girls have had sexual relations with more men than the years they've been on this earth. Some end up pregnant. Some with STDs, and all of them emotionally scarred for life. And that's the unmarried ones.


This is what happens when immoral behaviour isn't nipped in the bud. No deterrents. No fear. Al hamdulillah unlike the West most muslims still adhere to the same beliefs that keep the disintegration of society at bay. And even if in most places where muslims live, there is no shariah law, we still remember the punishments (as reminders) in our hearts, which although not metted out physically, still remain to be deterrents mentally and spiritually.



Where there are no deterrents, things have reached rock bottom. But no matter how bad a society gets, no person can continue to commit sin and not feel guilty. That is by man's very own nature that his sins will make him suffer will various ways. Some drink, do drugs, or even commit more sins to take their mind of the previous ones. Nature's way of alerting us to something we did wrong is to make us feel guilty. That's why people end up confessing to extra marital affairs/murders and lesser crimes. Man cannot shoulder the burden of his sins. He has to relieve himself of it somehow, and most commonly it's by confessing. Where promiscuity is rife, the guilt is also greater. Every day hordes of men and women are confessing to adultery, cheating and the like. It’s really sad to see an innocent baby’s mother telling her husband, that their baby may not be his. He’s told that the child he loved more than his own life might not even be his! So off they go for a paternity test. The paternity test shows he is not the father. Tears. Anger. Then woman says who she thinks is the father. So off they go for another paternity test. Lo and behold, that man also isn't the baby's father. Uh oh! Believe it or not, in most such cases require multiple tests, and in most the baby's father still isn't found! Up to 30, 40 and even 50 tests! Ya Allah! The non muslim West is littered with tarts, including male ones. If you don't believe me - ask Maury Povich. He organises such tests! I’ve seen so many of these shows in the past, it’s like being stuck in ground hog day. The people never stop coming. The sins stay the same, only the faces change – although most seem to have bought a seasons ticket to keep returning.



How many babies are born as a result of fornication/adultery and will grow up not knowing who the father is, and with the possibility of marrying their own brother or sister? The kuffar brush off their actions by saying there’s nothing wrong in what they do as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. Anyone can see that’s rubbish. Immorality is destroying so many lives, not to mention how much of tax payers money goes to fixing the ills of these societies. Instead of looking to deterrents, the West ploughs even more of our money into plastering the cracks. Way to go West!



Stoning/lashing may seem cruel, no one can say it’s not effective as a deterrent. Shariah also requires four witnesses to convict a person of adultery. What are the chances of that four people witnessing illegal sexual intercourse? Pfft! Death by stoning is rare! I know of more people who were killed on a night out to the pub than by stoning! But that's acceptable I guess. With harsh deterrents, those who are tempted to commit adultery/fornication will think twice and save society from turning into total hell-hole. It’s sad to think that no one bats an eyelid when thousands and millions of people commit lewd and immoral behaviour and ruin lives. It’s ok for a mother to leave her young children and run off with the milkman. It’s ok for the father to have an affair with his wife’s sister. Hell, even mothers have not spared their own daughter’s husbands/boyfriends. Yet all this is allowed to go unchecked. No one cares about the trail of destruction and broken lives left behind. But the moment they hear there is actually a penalty and deterrent for such a behaviour, there is uproar and condemnation of what is actually a great medicine for societies’ ills.


Taken from original article posted by the O.P: "It is notable that this kind of punishment has rarely been implemented in Iran and various means and remedies must be probed and exhausted to finally come up with such a punishment,"



No one wants people to commit a sin that warrantees such a punishment. Not scholars. Not us. But if that's the only way to keep society clean from the filth that's prevalent in the West, then so be it. We can't risk destroying whole communities over a few individuals.



:wa:

The argument that stoning someone for adultery so that it can 'deter' people is not too convincing for a few of reasons. First, given that it's near impossible to prove & convict someone according to Islamic criteria that they committed adultery means most people can get away with it. The only way capital punishment is going to work as a deterrent in this case is if it was easy to show that someone committed adultery. Second, it is not clear to me that capital punishment deters people from committing acts like adultery. If couples don't cheat on each other in Islamic countries as much as they do in Western countries then I think the more plausible reason is that the Muslims in those countries value their religion and culture more. Third, if deterrence excuses crime like stoning to death then what else does 'deterrence' excuse? Should we have total surveillance of all people all the time in hopes of deterrence? Should we have our women stay at home for deterrance? My point being that deterrence in itself is not sufficient to excuse certain behavior...

 

[Asiyah3]

What's the point of this thread?

 

[Alpha Dude]

Well said, Scents of Jannah.

Anyway, now we have the usual suspects coming here chatting all sorts of philosophical crap.

What's your purpose posting here, Lynx? We're not here to try to convince you, we don't and shouldn't have to.

If you want to accept it then do so otherwise just be quiet. No amount of to and fro from you will change anything.

Stoning is 100% part of Islam and only those that are ignorant would deny and bury their heads in the sand about it.

It is something that has strong legitimate basis in Islam and therefore we don't need to question the wisdom behind it. Deterrence is something that some are opining as the basis but only Allah knows the full extent of the wisdom behind it.

We hear and obey the Prophet, peace be upon him. Problem with that?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

What's the point of this thread?

Agreed.

The punishment of stoning to death the adulterer tells you of the negative consequences of committing adultery. The harm caused to the married couple, family, society etc far outweighs any good coming from it. The more harmful a deed, the worse the consequences.

:threadclo