Abstinance...

[Umar001]

Background:

I happend to see a part of a programme a long time ago about weddings, there was a couple, who claimed to be Christian and that they were 'abstaning' from each other, and then I saw them hugging and kissing and so forth.

Now, I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about sexual morality or immorality, nor about bikini wearing.

I would like people to post their views on what Abstinence their Holy Book or Religious Sources require.

I will ask questions, probably to those who are Christians, but please do not be put off, I will only ask to get a better understanding of your views and not to put you down.

But this is open to all faiths, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Sikh.

Also, if possible please state why you hold what Abstinence is.. i.e don't just post "you can't touch a girl" because I will just ask, how did you come to that conclusion, so to save time it would be nice to have something like i.e. "you cant touch a girl, because of so and so chapter or Muhammad/Jesus/Paul/Moses or so forth said this or that"

Peace be upon those who follow guidance, peace be upon the Prophets from Adaam to Muhammad, including, but not only, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus.

Thank you and Take Care.

 

[Trumble]

I happend to see a part of a programme a long time ago about weddings, there was a couple, who claimed to be Christian and that they were 'abstaning' from each other, and then I saw them hugging and kissing and so forth.

Simply, in the context of most Christians in the West 'abstaining' would refer to not having sex. Hugging and kissing are rather different; they would have not have abstained from showing affection towards each other.

 

[Keltoi]

Trumble's explanation was accurate. "Abstaining" in the context of most Christian peoples refers to not have sexual relations. Hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc is affection. Some would require that these things not take place and some aren't as strict on the issue. The main purpose is to exclude sexual contact until marriage.

 

[glo]

I've tried to find some answers, which might help:

Sex before marriage / premarital sex is repeatedly condemned in the Bible. The Bible promotes abstinence before marriage. Sex between a husband and his wife is the only form of sexual relations that God approves of:

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. (Hebrews 13:4)

For the sake of time, I am copying-and-pasting this reply with regards to what level of physical contact is permitted before marriage:

Question: "What is an appropriate level of intimacy before marriage?"

Answer: Ephesians 5:3 tells us, "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity...because these are improper for God's holy people." Anything that even "hints" of sexual immorality is inappropriate for a Christian.

The Bible does not give us a "list" of what qualifies as a "hint" or tell us specifically what are approved physical activities that a couple can do before they are married.
However, just because the Bible does not specifically address the issue - that does not mean God approves of "pre-sexual" activity before marriage. By essence, "foreplay" is designed to get you "ready" for sex. Logically, then, "foreplay" should be restricted to married couples. Anything that can be considered "foreplay" should be avoided until marriage. (There is no need to go into specifics here.)

Any and all sexual activity should be restricted to married couples.

What can a pre-married couple do?
A pre-married couple should avoid any activity that tempts them toward sex, that gives the appearance of immorality, or that could be considered "foreplay."
I, personally, would strongly advise a couple to not go beyond holding hands, hugging, and light kissing before marriage. The more a married couple has to share exclusively between themselves, the more special and unique the sexual relationship in a marriage becomes.
(Not my own words. This is from http://www.gotquestions.org/before-marriage.html)

In essence this isn't any more than Trumble and Keltoi have already described:
Biblically speaking, pre-marital sex is not condoned.
But that does not mean that a couple cannot spend time together prior to marriage, get to know each other, or even exchange signs of affection (as Keltoi said).

 

[Umar001]

Tthank you all for your replies.

The thing I don't get is, that some say it is allowed to show affection, but isn't that something that should only be done with the wife?

For example if I had a gf, and I kissed her, and then kissed another girl, I am pretty sure my girlfriend would be wound up, because kissing, even jus a light kiss on the lips, is considered an act of intimacy as such, something that you do not do with everyone, but rather only with one whom you have entered a reletionship with, i.e. marriage.

So if most people wouldnt want their bf./gf kissing others because of they hold it to be something of intimacy then should it not stem from there that kissing is part of abstinance since it is only something to be shared with a wife I guess and not every other tom dick and harry, well, kate janet and laura

Anyone get my thinking?

 

[glo]

I understand what you mean.

I don't think there is Biblical answer to this question though.
It is more a moral question, and also has cultural undertones. Kissing, hugging and physical contact is appropriate (between friends and even strangers, in a non-sexual context) to different extends in different cultures.

In France and other mediteranean countries it is quite common for people to hug and kiss each other on the cheek, even somebody you don't know very well, even between men - which in other cultures may be considered overly friendly and inappropriate.

In the bf/gf scenario, morally speaking there should be some commitment. So in a committed and caring friendship/relationship, would you not want to keep certain expressions of affection for that person alone?

I think Islam is very clear and prescriptive in this; there is no physical contact between the spouses-to-be at all. Sometimes even no contact at all!
Therefore discussions, such as this thread, don't even arise - which makes it, in many ways, much more uncomplicated.

Biblically speaking (as mentioned before) there are no such clear and strict guidelines.
Much more seems to depend on personal responsibility and people's own conscience ... perhaps it requires a couple to sit down and agree on the ground rules themselves.

I don't have more time now. I hope this is fairl clear. Let me know what you think ...

Peace

 

[Umar001]

I understand what you mean.

I don't think there is Biblical answer to this question though.
It is more a moral question, and also has cultural undertones. Kissing, hugging and physical contact is appropriate (between friends and even strangers, in a non-sexual context) to different extends in different cultures.

In France and other mediteranean countries it is quite common for people to hug and kiss each other on the cheek, even somebody you don't know very well, even between men - which in other cultures may be considered overly friendly and inappropriate.

In the bf/gf scenario, morally speaking there should be some commitment. So in a committed and caring friendship/relationship, would you not want to keep certain expressions of affection for that person alone?

I think Islam is very clear and prescriptive in this; there is no physical contact between the spouses-to-be at all. Sometimes even no contact at all!
Therefore discussions, such as this thread, don't even arise - which makes it, in many ways, much more uncomplicated.

Biblically speaking (as mentioned before) there are no such clear and strict guidelines.
Much more seems to depend on personal responsibility and people's own conscience ... perhaps it requires a couple to sit down and agree on the ground rules themselves.

I don't have more time now. I hope this is fairl clear. Let me know what you think ...

Peace

Yes it is,

But what I meant is,

"Kissing, hugging and physical contact is appropriate (between friends and even strangers, in a non-sexual context) to different extends in different cultures."

I mean, the kissing and hugging and physical contact which is restrained between couples, i.e. kissing on lips, hugging in a more sexual way, and so forth, I don't mean the friendly kissing on the cheek nor casual hug. I mean stuff that is solely preserved for a couple.

I would have thought that such actions would constitute as abstinance? Don't you think?

 

[Umm Khalid06]

Zuhd: Abstinence in Islam

The Zuhd of Prophet Muhammad: his food

Reports the mother of faithful believers, Sayyidatina 'Aisha Siddiqa (may Allah be pleased with her): "At our home (that is, the home of the Holy Prophet's household), fire would not be kindled (sometimes) for a whole month; we subsisted merely on water and dates." (Tirmidhi)

Hadrat Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) and the members of his household used to pass night after night without food, as there used to be nothing for eating at night, and frequently his food consisted of barley-bread. (Tirmidhi)

Sayyidatina 'Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reports that till the day the Holy Prophet passed away, the members of his household did not eat even barley-bread to their fill for two days consecutively. (Tirmidhi)

The Zuhd of Prophet Muhammad: his bedding

Narrates Sayyidina 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him): "I went to the Prophet and saw that he was lying on a mat made of the leaves of the date-palm, and there was no bedding between him and the mat, and the texture of the mat had left deep marks on his body, and under his head was placed a leather pillow stuffed with the bark of the date-tree. On seeing it, I said, "My Master! Pray to Allah (The Glorified and The Exalted) to grant prosperity to your followers. He has bestowed riches upon the people of Rome and Persia even though they are not believers." The Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) replied, 'O son of Khattab! Do you also think like that? They are the people who have been deprived of the blessings of the Hereafter (owing to their ungodly ways), and hence, the comforts (Allah wanted to confer upon them) have been granted to them in this world.' (In another version of the same Tradition, it is said that the Prophet replied, "O 'Umar! Do you not prefer that they took the joys of this world and we of the Hereafter)?" (Bukhari and Muslim)

Hadrat 'AbdAllah ibn Mas'ud (may Allah be pleased with him) says that (once) the Holy Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) slept on a mat made of date palm leaves and when he awoke, the impressions of the mat were visible on his body. We said: "O Allah's Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him)! May we prepare a soft bedding for you?" He said: I have got nothing to do with the world. I am in this world like a rider who halts in the shade of a tree for a short time and after taking some rest, resumes his journey leaving the tree behind. (Tirmidhi)

The Stature of a Zahid and a Sufi: Uways al-Qarani

Sayyidina 'Umar bin al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) as saying, "A man named Uways will come to you from Yemen leaving there only a mother. He had been afflicted by leprosy and made supplication to Allah (The Glorified and The Exalted) who removed it all except to the extent of a dinar (or dirham). If any of you meet him tell him to pray for forgiveness for you." In another version he said that he heard Allah's Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) say, "The best of the Followers (Tabi'in) will be a man named Uways who has a mother and has been afflicted by leprosy. Tell him that he must pray for forgiveness for you." (Muslim)

if this is what you mean brother

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

stay away from anything that can lead you to sin.

Dont stare at women that can lead into fornication.
Dont attend bad parties that can lead to fornication
dont listen to music that can arouse you and mislead you away from Allah.
Dont use bad words, you'll get use to it and your mouth will become foul there fore sinning.

Abstain from anything which leads to sin...

 

[glo]

Yes it is,

But what I meant is,

"Kissing, hugging and physical contact is appropriate (between friends and even strangers, in a non-sexual context) to different extends in different cultures."

I mean, the kissing and hugging and physical contact which is restrained between couples, i.e. kissing on lips, hugging in a more sexual way, and so forth, I don't mean the friendly kissing on the cheek nor casual hug. I mean stuff that is solely preserved for a couple.

I would have thought that such actions would constitute as abstinance? Don't you think?

Hi Isa

Sorry about throwing the non-sexual signs of affection into the equasion ... perhaps that was confusing.
What I was trying to say, was that there is a cultural element here, rather than a religious one. (I know, this is not so much the case in Islam as Islam = culture)

Back to the topic of this thread. Your original question was:

"I would like people to post their views on what Abstinence their Holy Book or Religious Sources require."

Trumble, Keltoi and I have answered this by saying that the only biblical requirement is not to have sex before marriage (i.e. to remain a virgin)

Your following question then was:

"I mean, the kissing and hugging and physical contact which is restrained between couples, i.e. kissing on lips, hugging in a more sexual way, and so forth, [...] I mean stuff that is solely preserved for a couple.

I would have thought that such actions would constitute as abstinance? Don't you think?"

Biblically that's not specified. As said before, the only requirement is not to have sex. Re-read in my previous post:

"In the bf/gf scenario, morally speaking there should be some commitment. So in a committed and caring friendship/relationship, would you not want to keep certain expressions of affection for that person alone?

I think Islam is very clear and prescriptive in this; there is no physical contact between the spouses-to-be. Sometimes even no contact at all!
Therefore discussions, such as this thread, don't even arise - which makes it, in many ways, much more uncomplicated.

Biblically speaking (as mentioned before) there are no such clear and strict guidelines.
Much more seems to depend on personal responsibility and people's own conscience ... perhaps it requires a couple to sit down and agree on the ground rules themselves."

Anything that is likely to put a non-married couple at risk of being tempted into having sex, should be avoided. I guess that's a personal decision.
So, if you personally feel that "such actions would constitute as abstinance" ... then you should act accordingly and abstain!

Like IbnAbdulHakim said: Abstain from anything which leads to sin...

 

[Umar001]

Ok so No Sex, but other stuff, 'sexually kissing, edit and so on' is allowed?

 

[glo]

Ok so No Sex, but other stuff, 'sexually kissing, edit and so on' is allowed?

Being not specifically forbidden is not the same as being allowed, is it?

'edit???' ... dare I ask what exactly you mean here? :uuh:

Isa, you are doing that 'asking-the-same-thing-over-and-over' again! That's so annoying! :heated:
As if by asking the same thing 50 times, you can get better answers ... :rollseyes

Are you asking biblically? Then you've had your answer at least four times now, by three different members: No sex, otherwise no specific guidelines.

Are you asking me personally? Then the answer is, it's none of your business what I personally think! :rollseyes
It's a personal decision, every couple should make for themselves.
It is fairly obvious that highly sexual activity such as sexual kissing and touching should be avoided!

Re-read the advice section from my first post. (Yes, Isa, read it!)

What can a pre-married couple do?
A pre-married couple should avoid any activity that tempts them toward sex, that gives the appearance of immorality, or that could be considered "foreplay."
I, personally, would strongly advise a couple to not go beyond holding hands, hugging, and light kissing before marriage. The more a married couple has to share exclusively between themselves, the more special and unique the sexual relationship in a marriage becomes.
(Not my own words. This is from http://www.gotquestions.org/before-marriage.html)

Peace (Isa, you make me feel old!)

 

[syilla]

*bump