Afghanistan Taliban

[جوري]

Usually it is your outgroup hate that sticks out but here it is your ingroup blind faith. The west certainly has its abuses and its selfish motives, but the west is not the only one out to screw over places like Afghanistan. Just because somebody claims to be muslim doesn't mean they are your friend or have your best interests at heart.

The unseen enemy, the enemy within, is often the most dangerous. It is like that saying "Tyrany will come to America holding a bible and waving an American flag". Just because people try to fit into your ingroup doesn't mean they are not out to destroy you.

usually I just ignore you as a beef jerky sucking, tree hugging nutter, who knows little if no history whatsoever and so eager to dispense with his opinion as facts, unfortunately for someone whose entire thought processes and vocabulary centers around the word 'tribalism' you haven't much else to offer otherwise-- it is a wonder to me at all you insist on publicly humiliating yourself?.. go browse a basic history book about British occupations of Africa/ China and Asia and look at how borders were set up to instigate hatred/ 'tribalism' in fact and highlight the need for longer stay to steal more, a prime example is how they gave a wedge of Egypt to Sudan and stayed to 'keep the peace' and steal the money coming in from the Suez Canal discounting the very close relationship that Egypt had with Sudan so their scheme didn't work for long, but has unfortunately worked in other regions. Now, I totally understand, you live in your cartoon world, and have a subscription to tribalism and the atheist manifesto magazine, but just so you are not repeatedly embarrassing yourself in public, there is an entire world and schools of thoughts that don't run along yours.. try stepping out of your comfort zone a little unarmed by the two words in your ammo.. and if you had paid attention you'd have seen the operative word in my statement was 'true Muslims' hopefully you can use that to expand your vocabulary..

for the record, I never counted pork rind gorging, beer chugging, fart dispensing bible thumpers as any form of contenders. Their filthy presence is enough of a bother in Muslim land without them waving their mangod agenda in everyone's face!

nationalism/fascism/Arianism and yes your coveted tribalism are indeed a western invention..

as the noble Quran tells us:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]49:13 (Picktall) O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
[/FONT]

good day =)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Except they wern't 'missionaries', they were medics, trying to save people's eyesight. . What part of that do you Talifans find so hard to grasp? .. sometimes you folks redefine the word 'gullible'. And even if they were distributing these imaginary Bibles, is Islam really so feeble a religion it is justifiable to slaughter 'missionaries' of other religions just to keep people believing in it?!

So they say. If they were truly medics than Allahu alam. This has nothing to with them trying to spread their religion but more to do with the conditions and manner they choose to do it in. You come into their country as occupiers and murderers and then have the audacity to try to spread your religion and expect to be welcomed with open arms. Afghanistan is a warzone.
What I find indeed gullible is how you people expect to be treated with respect and decency when you illegally occupy another nation and kill it's inhabitants on a daily basis. What part of leave Afghanistan do you people fail to grasp? no "medics" would die and neither would your soldiers.
Salam

Nobody is condoning these attacks, but at the same time I can understand. If right after Pearl Harbour attacks, which is NOTHING compared to what Afghans get daily, Japanese Humanitarian People came to help, do you guys think Americans would welcome them? NO.... Maybe those missionaries/medics were killed illegally but they should not have expected a welcome mat, and maybe should have invested in bullet proof vests !

I can't tell you about all of the people who were killed. I don't even know much about International Assistance Mission, the organization they were with. But I can tell you a little about one of the men who was murdered. Daniel Terry was a friend of mine. Not a close friend, but an acquaintance. A fellow United Methodist. Someone I met several years ago at a missions conference. Dan was with the team that was murdered not because he was a doctor or a medic, but specifically because he was a missionary. Now, before people jump to think that this proves the Taliban right in their accusations, let me tell you a little bit more about the man they murdered.

Daniel Terry was by nationality an American, but you could hardly call him a westerner. In truth, he saw himself as more Afghani than American, for Afghanistan had been his home for all of his adult life.

In 1948, when Dan was just two years of age, his parents moved their family to India which is where he was primarily raised. His family travelled extensively throughout northern India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. His father worked for NGOs in the rural communities to bring humanitarian assistance. Dan's peers were the boys of the different villages that his father worked in, and as a child he learned all these languages. In those travels Dan fell in love with Afghanistan and moved there in 1970, a young man of 22. He had some mechanical aptitude and that is how he earned his living. In 1972 he met Seija, the love of his life. Seija was from Finland and had come to Afghanistan as a nurse. They married 4 years later and decided to go to graduate school. 1976-1980 was spent in school in the United States. Then, despite Soviet occupation, with schooling completed, they returned to the country they considered their home. This time Dan was employed by the United Methodist Church as a missionary. He job was to use his knowledge of the country, lanuage, and mechanical skills to provide logistical support for others engaged in rural health projects in central Afghanistan such as the construction of community health centers.

He was a man of Christian faith there is no doubt, and he rarely travelled without a copy of the Bible with him, but it would have been his personal copy for his own devotions, not for proselytizing. Dan was always one willing to share his faith when asked, but never felt it was his job to open that conversation. Dan always said that the best introductions were those that God made for us. On the occassion in which I met him, he had talked about the importance of doing good works regardless without worry about the result simply because that is what God calls us to. One of my seminary classmates attending the conference with me challenge him asking what good it did to tend to people's physical needs if you left them spiritually bound for hell. Dan would have none of it. He said that it wasn't our job to convert people, that God is the one who calls people to himself. Our job, according to Dan, was to live in accordance with God's will for our lives, to love people as God loved them, meet their needs as best we could, and let God take care of the rest. I remember that conversation, because at that point in my life I disagreed with him and had joined in my classmate's vehement objections to Dan's point of view. It wasn't till several years later, when I happened to have opportunity to take a short-term missison trip of my own (to another country, not Afghanistan), that my personal experiences there radically changed my own view on the subject to be like that of Dan's.

I have no knowledge of Dan's political leanings other than that he thought all politics was local. That is, what was important to him was that people learn to live in community with one another and work together for the common good. It was his hope that nations could learn to get along to make the world a better place in much the same way that he experienced neighbors of different backgrounds could learn to get along and work together to make the small villages in which he spent so much time better places.

Dan and Seija had raised their 3 girls in Afghanistan, even accepting and adapting to Taliban rule. To his children and to others he would speak he always taught the importance of understanding, relating to, and respecting other people's culture. He was a missionary helping others to provide humanitarian aid to the poorest and most hurting regions of the country and people he loved. He had accompanied IAM because they were doing the same and his logistical and language skills were essential to them being able to provide the services they hoped to offer to some who would otherswise be without. They had completed that mission, an eye camp, in the Parun Valley of Nuristan province and were returning to Kabul by way of Badakhshan province because it was believed to be safer when they were attacked and murdered.


“It is almost beyond belief that Dan Terry would be murdered in Afghanistan,” said Thomas Kemper, chief executive of Global Ministries, and Dan's boss. “He loved the country with a passion and worked tirelessly on behalf of its most marginalized communities.”

There is no justification for such an act. Those who did it are nothing more than robbers and murders. For all the pious words that some have spoken in their behalf, I do not believe the true God of Islam would ever condone such an act. May Allah recognize those murders as such so that when they stand before him at the time of judgment they receive the same sort of mercy from him they themselves showed to those who truly were on a journey of mercy when they took their lives from them.

 

[nousername]

All I can say it's really terrible what's going on in Afghanistan....civilians dying everyday, drones and bombs, firefights, etc. Their is so much killing on a daily basis that I can understand why people are outraged that some westerners, no matter how good their intentions are, get all the attention when nobody even knows the names of the civilians killed daily.

 

[Lynx]

..............................



LOL who's going into someone's home? are you saying all taliban are from pakistan? cause if you are you must be stupid. The taliban movement was accepted in afghanistan thats why it grew with the support of afghans all over the country - its consists of mostly afghans

And your statement 'no better than the NATO forces' - thats your opinion cause you're not a muslim, afghan taliban are praised all over the muslim world cause of their sincere struggle to fight for islam and rid the country of a constant influx of non-muslim invaders - Not many muslim countries have balls to defend themselves. You're probably not aware of this belief but even the worst muslim is better than the best non-muslim.

a) no body claimed all of the taliban were from Pakistan. their primary funding and their origin are certainly pakistani
b) a huge chunk of the taliban are foreigners, the vast majority of 'afghans' that are part of the taliban were pashtun afghans who committed ethnic crimes against non pashtun afghans. the taliban's forces were mostly trained in Pakistan and sent to AFghanistan from Pakistan. Pakistan pulls the taliban's strings after their agent gulbideen hikmatyar went renegade.
c) you're right it's my opinion that they are as bad as NATO forces. the muslims who support the taliban (and im sure it's considerably less than 'majority' of the muslim world) do so because of their war against USA. america = bad so whoever is against america = good.
d) the reason the taliban were accepted was because people thought htey'd put an end to the fighting that took place after the Soviets pulled out. It turned out that the taliban's goals for the country did not go beyond total control over the country.
e) i am aware of the saying 'the worst muslim is better than the best non muslim' and it is one of the reasons why i think islam is illogical. i can explain my reasoning in a different thread if you really want to know why

 

[Zafran]

You're probably not aware of this belief but even the worst muslim is better than the best non-muslim.

where did this come from???

 

[Grace Seeker]

All I can say it's really terrible what's going on in Afghanistan

Agreed.

civilians dying everyday

terrible

drones and bombs, firefights, etc.

Not to mention "suicide" bombings and outright murders....all terrible.

Their is so much killing on a daily basis that I can understand why people are outraged that some westerners, no matter how good their intentions are, get all the attention when nobody even knows the names of the civilians killed daily.

Disagree that the facts, as presented in this sentence, are true. Here is why:
1) If only the deaths of westerners received attention, then no one would be aware that others have died. This thread alone, let alone other news reports (including reports that do occur in westerner media), give evidence that people around the world are aware that there are other deaths besides those of westerners.
2) I find it highly unlikely that nobody knows the names of the civilians who are killed in Afghanistan.
2a) The families and friends of those civilians who are killed surley know their names.
2b) Media tend to report that which they anticipate will be of interest to their viewers/readers. And, therefore, western media (rightly or wrongly) make an assumption that western readers/viewers are going to be more interested in the deaths of people viewed as having ties with the west than from other places around the globe. (This is not the best journalism in my opinion, but seems to be universally practiced.) Thus those who utilize western media may be led, falsely in my opinion, the the view that nobody knows the names of Afghan civilians who are killed. But I suspect that media that reports to Afghan populations are very much aware of those names and report them just as much as the western media report on western names to western audiences. If not, they should be.
2c) Lastly, let us not forget that Daniel Terry, the only name I know, was himself a civilian, and that I know him not as a westerner but as a person from Afghanistan.

---Edit-----------------------------------

1a) The UN just released a report detailing civilian deaths in Afghanistan. The report was carried extensively by virtually all western media today.

 

[Argamemnon]

I am not surprised. Aid workers have been dying in Afhganistan/Iraq/Africa forever. It's a risk that these people take when they try to help people. But obviously, the fact that these events are inevitable don't make them excusable.

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

Millions? I believe this is at best a case of hyperbole.

The number of Afghan civilians killed in the war torn country rose 25 per cent in the first six months of 2010, despite a reduction in the number of civilian deaths caused by NATO action, a UN report said Tuesday.

The report showed that the Afghan war is getting even more deadly because of insurgent actions against civilians, undermining coalition efforts to improve security in the country.

"The human cost of this conflict is unfortunately rising," Staffan De Mistura, the top UN envoy in Afghanistan, said while releasing the report. "We are very concerned about the future because the human cost is being paid too heavily by civilians. This report is a wake-up call."

According to the report by the Human Rights Unit of the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, 1,271 Afghans died and 1,997 were injured, mostly in bombings -- in the first six months of 2010.

In comparison, there were 1,013 civilian deaths in the first six months of 2009.

The UN said insurgents were responsible for 72 per cent of those deaths in 2010, compared to 58 per cent in 2009.

Even though the UN blames insurgents for almost three-quarters of the deaths, the report could undermine the mission as the Afghan public is increasingly blaming the U.S.-led mission for the violence.

De Mistura argues that the Taliban is hurting its long-term goals by killing so many civilians.

"If they want to be part of a future Afghanistan, they cannot do so over the bodies of so many civilians," de Mistura said. "One day, when unavoidably there will be a discussion about the future of the country, will you want to come to that table with thousands of Afghans, civilians, killed along the road?"

Civilian deaths from coalition actions were down 18 per cent in the first half of 2010. Deaths dropped to 223 from 310 in 2009, mostly due to a decrease in air strikes, the report said.

Air bombings accounted for 31 per cent of civilian deaths caused by pro-government forces.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the former NATO commander, introduced strict new rules for air strikes, a policy change his successor, Gen. David Petraeus, has continued.

"Every Afghan death diminishes our cause," Petraeus said in a statement "We know the measure by which our mission will be judged is protecting the population from harm by either side. We will redouble our efforts to prevent insurgents from harming their neighbors."

With files from The Associated Press
(source: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20100810/afghan-civilians-100810/)

Even using the highest figure for all estimates of civilian deaths from any source, the total for the entire war (including the combined effect of actions of all foreign and national militaries, Taliban, insurgents, and freedom fighters) is 12,969 direct deaths and 20,000 indirect deaths for a grand total of roughly 33,000 total deaths 2001 to 2009 inclusive. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) Add the 1300 civilian deaths so far this year reported by the UN and you have a total of just under 34,300 -- which is itself is waaaay too many, but also waaaaaaaaaay less (by hundreds of thousands) than the term "millions" which you used to describe what is happening.

 

[Argamemnon]

Your barbaric and terrorist government has killed, maimed, tortured and displaced millions of Iraqis, but I know the life of one Christian missionary is far more important to westerners.

5 Million Iraqis Killed, Maimed, Tortured, Displaced -- Think That Bothers War Boosters Like Christopher Hitchens?

http://www.alternet.org/story/14728...others_war_boosters_like_christopher_hitchens

 

[Lynx]

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

Please quote me where I have said I don't care about 'millions of Muslims' dying. If you can't, I expect an apology for calling me a hypocrite. Thank you.