Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

[wilberhum]

Md Mashud

Quran is not a science book, so it won't explain and is not deemed to explain all creations.

So maybe god chose evolution as his way to create new creatures.

Why not?

That would save billions of trips back to deliver new animals.

 

[Md Mashud]

You are 100% correct, God is perfectly capable of using natural selection and evolution - even macro as a tool - it would not affect credibility of the existance of God. The truth is, some animals MAY have gone through it - Quran did not explain every single animal in existance how it happened. However, scientists do disagree with macroevolution - non-religious point of view too.

However, since theirs no evidence for it, and Quran denies that humans were made through macroevolution - why should we believe it (especially natural selection with its huge flaws in its fundamental basis). If their was real evidence/facts that humans were the derivation of macroevolution - You would contradict Quran. Its the only way.

 

[wilberhum]

You are 100% correct, God is perfectly capable of using natural selection and evolution - even macro as a tool - it would not affect credibility of the existance of God. The truth is, some animals MAY have gone through it - Quran did not explain every single animal in existance how it happened.

Woo, finally. That was a long trip.
Evolution and god are not mutually exclusive

However,

I knew it was too good to last.

scientists do disagree with macroevolution - non-religious point of view too.

In all fields of science there are varied points of view. That is nothing new. Views change all the time.
T-Rex was first assumed to be the fiercest predator on earth. Then evidence that he was a scavenger came to light. To my knowledge it is assumed that he could run much faster than originally thought. Now he is a predator again.
Views vary and many disagree about many things, but scientists in the field all agree, T-Rex evolved.

However, since theirs no evidence for it,

How many thousands of peices of evedence do you have to ignore to come to that conclusion?

Quran denies that humans were made through macroevolution - why should we believe it

It usually comes down to religion. Decisions made on faith and not facts.

(especially natural selection with its huge flaws in its fundamental basis)

Are you telling me we don't have defiened to total pefection? :skeleton:
Of course we don't and never will, that doesn't mean we got it ALL wrong. See T-Rex again.

If their was real evidence/facts that humans were the derivation of macroevolution

There is real evidence/facts. But since we can not reproduce history, there will never be proof.

You would contradict Quran. Its the only way.

I would agree with that and I have no problem with that.
But I do understand, as a matter of faith, you have a major problem with it.

So we go back to the same old problem, faith or facts, a problem that will never be resolved.

Peace
Wilber

 

[Md Mashud]

You see - you says theirs evidence, Infact, show me some now, don't quote me somthing googled - get something recently dated with author - And I will explain the problem with it.

Alot of hypothesis and just random thoughts of "what ifs" suddenly become scientific evidence - I have no idea how. Just go browse through a Physics forum just to see how many variations you can have of theories for universe - each have equal weight, you cant prove or disprove any. I wouldn't call it scientific though.

I have seen this "evidence" you say for macroevolution of humans - I deny this is evidence, I would rather call it faith (wrong albeit) - I have read and seen alot, nothing striked to me as anything other than a belief.

I know you think I just turned a blind eye to all science - Couldn't be further from truth! I always read views and articles, by scientists who write about evolution, multiverses etc. I think its good to learn what people think about the Universe. However, I can't say I have found anything that I can use to contradict Quran - in terms of science. Most of it definatly has alot of assumptions - I don't see how I can consider that scientific. Scientists are trying to explain a process without means - which I think is just being misleading.

 

[wilberhum]

You see - you says theirs evidence, Infact, show me some now, don't quote me somthing googled - get something recently dated with author - And I will explain the problem with it.

Everyone agrees there are problems. No one says we have it all right.

Alot of hypothesis and just random thoughts of "what ifs" suddenly become scientific evidence

Example?

- I have no idea how. Just go browse through a Physics forum just to see how many variations you can have of theories for universe - each have equal weight, you cant prove or disprove any. I wouldn't call it scientific though.

You seem to have a major problem with lack of perfection. It's like if it ain't perfect it is all wrong. That is just missing the reality that every thing is imperfect.

I have seen this "evidence" you say for macroevolution of humans - I deny this is evidence,I would rather call it faith (wrong albeit) - I have read and seen alot, nothing striked to me as anything other than a belief.

I know. The standard "I don't like it so I won't believe it". A totally common human trait.

I know you think I just turned a blind eye to all science

Not all science, just the science that contridects your faith.

- Couldn't be further from truth! I always read views and articles, by scientists who write about evolution, multiverses etc. I think its good to learn what people think about the Universe. However, I can't say I have found anything that I can use to contradict Quran - in terms of science. Most of it definatly has alot of assumptions - I don't see how I can consider that scientific. Scientists are trying to explain a process without means - which I think is just being misleading.

A process without means? Of course, when you limit what you will accept then it can be without means. But that is your decision.

Peace
Wilber

PS: It has been fun. Thanks, but I'm off. I may or may not be back on tonight.

 

[Md Mashud]

Everyone agrees there are problems. No one says we have it all right.

Im not talking about right wrong, Im talking about nature of the statement, evidence.

Evidence in its broadest sense, refers to anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion

I never saw any of this in the theories.

Example?

Derivation of morales through evolution/natural selection. I challenge you to provide me some evidence for it.

You seem to have a major problem with lack of perfection. It's like if it ain't perfect it is all wrong. That is just missing the reality that every thing is imperfect.

Again, you missed point, its not about perfection. This is about, if someone has an IDEA/theory, is that now labelled as scientific evidence because the man/woman happens to have DR or PHD behind his name?

I know. The standard "I don't like it so I won't believe it". A totally common human trait.

What was their to believe? It is one scientisits opinion on how things happened - nothing to do with science. Nothing to like or dislike, its just a matter of credibility which it can't be given without the right scientific backing.

Not all science, just the science that contridects your faith.

What science contradicts faith? It does not exist. Only theories and ideology can contradict faith - but those which do are NOT scientific - I challenge you to provide some evidence of somthing that contradicts faith, which isn't a faith to begin with.

A process without means? Of course, when you limit what you will accept then it can be without means. But that is your decision.

This is, explaining a process, without explaining how that process came about, its origin, its inition. I don't think someone should make a conclusive statement through theoretical assumptions of a model without explaining pre-initiation. Without that, anything goes, you can say anything, anyone can make up anything!

PS: It has been fun. Thanks, but I'm off. I may or may not be back on tonight.

You better be, im not finished with you!

 

[tarek29]

Evidence?

There is huge numbers of theories with and gainst Human Evoltuion, if we add that there is No scientific theory are 100 % right even if it is proved by science, which is not the case in Evoltuion!

Please ask any scientist about what I just said!

So you depend on something that is debatble and you cannot proof, so it is just PERSONAL opinion!

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

Peace

 

[wilberhum]

.....................
You better be, im not finished with you!

Sorry my wife changed my priorities.

But I did think about your questions. I think I just need to sum it up like this.

You have chosen to disregard all the evidence paleontology has provided, what can an IT professional tell you?

But still has been fun debating with you. Truly. eace:
I also conceded it successful; getting a theist to agree that god and evolution are not mutually exclusive is usually a great feat.

So many just grab their book and say "Evil atheist scientists are just trying to prove god doesn't exist". :-\

It is nice to deal with someone who doesn’t feel the need to stoop to petty insults. :coolious:

Peace
Wilber
(The really old guy:statisfie )

 

[Md Mashud]

Their is a good debate on youtube - atheist vs theist (if you type it).

Really good 2.5 hours watch. The truth is, 1000000 universes could exist, natural selection/evolution could perfectly exist without disproving God.

Science never can contradict God. I do think the one wrong atheist do is - forget if their evidence is evidence or not - or if its true - but the fact that they believe they could find SOMTHING that would make the existance of God not required is a bit... Humans can never just explain a process and hope to disprove God!

As for religion, well, to this date, since macroevolution of humans is not science - it doesnt contradict Islam.

You have chosen to disregard all the evidence paleontology has provided, what can an IT professional tell you?

What evidence? Atleast show me some article or somthing, that somehow you seem to have which I never have seen! I never ever have seen to date, even seeing many books and debates (I know this new Richard dawkin era toda) - when explaining natural selection or macro evolution - evidence was never provided.

When people talk about multiverses - evidence is not existance - it is purely theoretical.

I am not rejecting anything as evidence, it is just, nothing was put on the table - Thats why I challenged you to show me somthing that I disregard as truth - yet has evidence for it (be it, derivation of morales through NS/evo, or multiverse). If you dig deep enough, you'll hit rock bottom .

I would say you to look through some forums, with really genius physicians - after reading them a while - you somehow realise that - public opinion of theories becomes dressed up as scientific evidence, simply due to that a scientist has made it! Kind of scary if you think about it.

 

[tarek29]

Sorry my wife changed my priorities.

But I did think about your questions. I think I just need to sum it up like this.

You have chosen to disregard all the evidence paleontology has provided, what can an IT professional tell you?

But still has been fun debating with you. Truly. eace:
I also conceded it successful; getting a theist to agree that god and evolution are not mutually exclusive is usually a great feat.

So many just grab their book and say "Evil atheist scientists are just trying to prove god doesn't exist". :-\

It is nice to deal with someone who doesn’t feel the need to stoop to petty insults. :coolious:

Peace
Wilber
(The really old guy:statisfie )

"Evil atheist scientists are just trying to prove god doesn't exist".

No they are not EVIL they just TRY and still TRYING to find answers to the Question that already Answered by Quran 1427 years ago concerning Evolution!

Science that we have still and will always be very little, we cannot even know till today who lives deep inside the Ocean, and no matter how knowlegde we have we will never KNOW everything, so it is useless to try to explain things that we will never be able to know by using the weak science and knowlegde that we have!

We cannot even produce FLY!

So how come you want us to beleive in what you say, while you dont have PROOF to what you say!?

PEACE

 

[wilberhum]

No they are not EVIL they just TRY and still TRYING to find answers to the Question that already Answered by Quran 1427 years ago concerning Evolution!

Science that we have still and will always be very little, we cannot even know till today who lives deep inside the Ocean, and no matter how knowlegde we have we will never KNOW everything, so it is useless to try to explain things that we will never be able to know by using the weak science and knowlegde that we have!

We cannot even produce FLY!

So how come you want us to beleive in what you say, while you dont have PROOF to what you say!?

PEACE

So how come you want us to beleive in what you say, while you dont have PROOF to what you say!?
That's a really good question. Why do you chose to believe what you do, when there is no PROOF?

 

[Md Mashud]

So how come you want us to beleive in what you say, while you dont have PROOF to what you say!?
That's a really good question. Why do you chose to believe what you do, when there is no PROOF?

Pick on someone your own size lol! Leave tarek alone :skeleton:

 

[wilberhum]

Pick on someone your own size lol! Leave tarek alone :skeleton:

I only pick on those younger than me.

 

[tarek29]

So how come you want us to believe in what you say, while you dont have PROOF to what you say!?
That's a really good question. Why do you chose to believe what you do, when there is no PROOF?

Your question means that you realized now that what you believe is not Proved and at this point we are equal, right!?

I have a lot of PROOF to what I believe, for example for me personally QURAN is PROOF simply because it is no way that HUMANS can produce book like QURAN as it is the ONLY book send by word used by our creator:

1- No one can Produce one verse like in QURAN!

2- Quran doesn’t Contain even one SINGLE Mistake or contradiction!

3-It covers all aspects of life which impossible that one person have knowledge about all those matters alone, and out it in a way that fit all humans and for all times!

4-It contains a lot of SIGNS like scientific ones that we still discover them till today!

Those are my PROOF that anyone can TEST by himself, but usually non MUSLIM read only the cover of the books and they dont read what under the cover, and if they read what under the cover they dont understand what is in between the lines!

There is also other PROOF of existence of GOD and this is our nature that witness HIS existence!

And I guess it is impossible that Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed may peace be upon them all, that they make some kind of agreement between them!?

Why don’t you TEST QURAN I can help you in this test if you want!?

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE

 

[wilberhum]

tarek29
Now that you have proven that you have no concept of what PROOF is, there is little to discuss. There is as much proof of the IPU as any thing else.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg/263px-Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg.png

Personal opinion is not proof.

 

[tarek29]

tarek29
Now that you have proven that you have no concept of what PROOF is, there is little to discuss. There is as much proof of the IPU as any thing else.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg/263px-Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg.png

Personal opinion is not proof.

wilberhum I showed you that using your science that you rely as PROOF is no PROOF, which means as I said above that at this point we are equal!

I gave you PROOF that you can TOUCH and SEE and READ and TEST!

And this PROOF that you can TOUCH, SEE, OBTAIN, READ and Test is Holy QURAN, that I told you that NO HUMAN can produce anything like it, becuase it is not written by Humans, it is not even bible or Torah as they were teachings inspired to humans and Humans wrote them using human way of expressions!

But Obviously you know nothing about the living Miracle Quran, tell me if I am wrong!?

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE

 

[wilberhum]

wilberhum I showed you that using your science that you rely as PROOF is no PROOF, which means as I said above that at this point we are equal!

I gave you PROOF that you can TOUCH and SEE and READ and TEST!

And this PROOF that you can TOUCH, SEE, OBTAIN, READ and Test is Holy QURAN, that I told you that NO HUMAN can produce anything like it, becuase it is not written by Humans, it is not even bible or Torah as they were teachings inspired to humans and Humans wrote them using human way of expressions!

But Obviously you know nothing about the living Miracle Quran, tell me if I am wrong!?

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE

Personal opinion is not proof. It is that simple.

If what you say was truly proof, not 1 out of 5 would be Muslim, 9 out of 10 would be.

It is simply a case of "Faith Blinders". Believe what you will, I do not challenge that.

But I find it sad when people don't understand the difference between "Faith" and "Fact".

Peace
Wilber

 

[tarek29]

Personal opinion is not proof. It is that simple.

If what you say was truly proof, not 1 out of 5 would be Muslim, 9 out of 10 would be.

It is simply a case of "Faith Blinders". Believe what you will, I do not challenge that.

But I find it sad when people don't understand the difference between "Faith" and "Fact".

Peace
Wilber

Who are talking about personal opinion !?

I gave you my PROOF and asked you to TEST it, very simple and Logic!

I also gave you HINTS of how to test it in my posts above!

I didnt ask you to TEST something that beyond human Knowledge, I gave you a BOOK which were the LAST message from skies to us and asked you to TEST it!

Simple, Logic, without feeling and without blind faith or any faith!

See but you Just provedyour ignorance about QURAN and ISLAM with all my respect, because you cannot have ability to PROOF QURAN to be made by Humans, so how you can say that Muslims don’t have PROOF when we give it to you!?

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE

 

[wilberhum]

Who are talking about personal opinion !?

I gave you my PROOF and asked you to TEST it, very simple and Logic!

I also gave you HINTS of how to test it in my posts above!

I didnt ask you to TEST something that beyond human Knowledge, I gave you a BOOK which were the LAST message from skies to us and asked you to TEST it!

Simple, Logic, without feeling and without blind faith or any faith!

See but you Just provedyour ignorance about QURAN and ISLAM with all my respect, because you cannot have ability to PROOF QURAN to be made by Humans, so how you can say that Muslims don’t have PROOF when we give it to you!?

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE

I reject it? Well you finally got some thing right.

Me and about 5 billion other people. :-\

Your so called proof is so weak that 4 out of 5 people reject it.

So just go away, my purpose here is not to insult Islam.

Peace Wilber

 

[tarek29]

I reject it? Well you finally got some thing right.

Me and about 5 billion other people. :-\

Your so called proof is so weak that 4 out of 5 people reject it.

So just go away, my purpose here is not to insult Islam.

Peace Wilber

You dont have PROOF to your Theories, while you cannot Discuss PROOF that Islam gives you!

But if you calculate it like that you, will find most of those 05 Billion beleive in God, some follow same GOD like Christians but they are miss guided and also jews, so as you see those who beleive in God are not 1 to 5 but more, so where does this put you!? this if we use same way how you calculate things!?

conclusion:

You use General talks and feelings and personal opinion not based on any Proof, and ironicaly and amazingly at same time you talk about PROOF and Logic and Blind faith etc....

And all this from first Proof that I gave to you, while I didnt finish yet of brining my PROOFS!

you should undertsand that I dont attack you, I just give you information for your sake!

May Allah (saw) guide us all!

PEACE