Allah sends astray ... (Surat Al-'An`am)

[YusufNoor]

As an Agnostic i see these verses as Islams equivilant of Excommunication. it's the Big Stick.
Although Yaweh and Allah are oft forgiving and merciful, theres a cut off point a "mortal sin" which will forever lock you out.
Catholicism lists the sins, and they tend to be things that would break the faith, such as denying the Holy Ghost, or disbeleiving that Jesus jumped into a cracker millions of times every sunday.
Islam 's verses are more subtle. Only Allah knows the criteria for being locked out of paradise and its up to him alone. This can potentially lead any action of the person to being punishable with the ultimate sanction.(apart from immediate divine intervention causing death).

Obviously as agnostic, I veiw it as a control mechanism, but appreciate its subtlty and open-endedness.

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

i don't see how you make the connection between the two, as "Qur'anic Justice in not posed like others. consider this story in Surat Al Kahf:

Muhsin Khan: And put forward to them the example of two men; unto one of them We had given two gardens of grapes, and We had surrounded both with date-palms; and had put between them green crops (cultivated fields etc.).
33:
Muhsin Khan: Each of those two gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein, and We caused a river to gush forth in the midst of them.
34:
Muhsin Khan: And he had property (or fruit) and he said to his companion, in the course of mutual talk: I am more than you in wealth and stronger in respect of men." [See Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 403].
35:
Muhsin Khan: And he went into his garden while in a state (of pride and disbelief) unjust to himself. He said: "I think not that this will ever perish.
36:
Muhsin Khan: "And I think not the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back to my Lord, (on the Day of Resurrection), I surely shall find better than this when I return to Him."
37:
Muhsin Khan: His companion said to him, during the talk with him: "Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you out of dust (i.e. your father Adam), then out of Nutfah (mixed semen drops of male and female discharge), then fashioned you into a man?
38:
Muhsin Khan: "But as for my part (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord and none shall I associate as partner with my Lord.
39:
Muhsin Khan: It was better for you to say, when you entered your garden: 'That which Allah wills (will come to pass)! There is no power but with Allah '. If you see me less than you in wealth, and children.
40:
Muhsin Khan: "It may be that my Lord will give me something better than your garden, and will send on it Husban (torment, bolt, etc.) from the sky, then it will be a slippery earth.
41:
Muhsin Khan: "Or the water thereof (of the gardens) becomes deep-sunken (underground) so that you will never be able to seek it."
42:
Muhsin Khan: So his fruits were encircled (with ruin). And he remained clapping his hands with sorrow over what he had spent upon it, while it was all destroyed on its trellises, he could only say: "Would I had ascribed no partners to my Lord!" [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
43:
Muhsin Khan: And he had no group of men to help him against Allah, nor could he defend or save himself.
44:
Muhsin Khan: There (on the Day of Resurrection), Al-Walayah (the protection, power, authority and kingdom) will be for Allah (Alone), the True God. He (Allah) is the Best for reward and the Best for the final end. (La ilaha ill-Allah none has the right to be worshipped but Allah).

the one man, the disbeliever. got:

1) NOT 1, but 2 gardens of grapes! AND
2) both surrounded by date palms! AND STILL
3) green crops put between them AND ADDITIONALLY GOT
4) a river that gushed forth right smack in the middle of them!

(what a punishment!):blind:

what did the believer get? let's see:

we're NOT told, BUT he had faith!

"But as for my part (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord and none shall I associate as partner with my Lord.
It was better for you to say, when you entered your garden: 'That which Allah wills (will come to pass)! There is no power but with Allah '. If you see me less than you in wealth, and children.

the "poor man" was the richer of the 2, for those that have "eyes to see."

EVERY GOOD THING given to the first man, in terms of wealth BLINDED him to Allah[swt] and to justice!

the poor man, given nothing or little YET he COULD "see" Allah[swt] Mercy and Justice!

can you see the difference?

additionally, did the man truly repent? we are not told, but he could have!

 

[barney]

Well the rich chap, it's assumed, isnt going to heaven. Perhaps he will perhaps he wont. Thats, as i understand it, Allahs choice.

The story simply says to me that being poor on earth is better, because Heaven will be the place you get reward. (which back to my control theory certainly keeps the poor happy)
Other scriptures tell how poverty actually increases heavanly riches. So the poor get to laugh loudest after they die at the ones eating bucketloads of dates or burgers here.

I'm not tying that story to the "seal on the heart" surah at all myself. I see the Seal on the heart as being a nonspecific sword of damocles which is dangled, not by the threats of the Church, but by the beleivers own guilt. Really you could say anything or do anything and it might set a seal on your heart. Here on the forums , members constantly seek reassurance that they havnt said anything wrong or wonder if they have set a seal on their hearts. It's far far more effective than the Catholic version of "Ok...Well technically i diddnt deny the Holy Ghost, because I said it whilst under duress, and i diddnt really beleive it in my heart...."
Since 1850, the Inquisition (prevention of vice /promotion of virtue)hasnt been about to enforce Gods law for the christians.
Islam has the ultimate sanction with the ultimate authority rather than with the pope.

 

[islamirama]

Well the rich chap, it's assumed, isnt going to heaven. Perhaps he will perhaps he wont. Thats, as i understand it, Allahs choice.

The story simply says to me that being poor on earth is better, because Heaven will be the place you get reward. (which back to my control theory certainly keeps the poor happy)
Other scriptures tell how poverty actually increases heavanly riches. So the poor get to laugh loudest after they die at the ones eating bucketloads of dates or burgers here.

Islam does not say you have to live poor so you can die rich and enjoy the life in the next stage. There were many companions of the Prophet (pbuh) who were millionaires or even billionaires by today's standard/currency rate. Allah says spend in the path of Allah, pay zakah (right's due on poor) and don't hold your hand back (be stingy or greedy). Everyone is given their share of what they will get in this world and what they earn in the Hereafter depends on what they do here.

Some of us are given less for own benefit. A gun is more dangerous in a child's hand then in an adult's hand. Each person has limits to which they can handle something. Some can handle more torture then others, some can be more cruel than others, some can be soft hearted then others. Everyone has a limit to what they can and can't do, and if you push them more than natural limits then they will break or go astray. As the saying goes, power corrupts people and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Let me give you an example. There was a man during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). He was always at the masjid and used to do lot of good deeds and was religious and everything. He asked the prophet (Pbuh) to make dua (prayer) for him that he gets wealth, he was told that it will take him away from Allah but he it won't and insisted. So a dua was made for him and slowly his wealth started to increase. 10 camels to 100 camels to 1000 camles and so forth. The man started coming less and less to masjid, his devotion to the worship of Allah became less and less as he became more busy with his wealth and worldy matters. When he was asked to come he would say he does not have time. And when zakah collector was sent to him to collect zakah, he declined to give stating that it's "his" wealth and others can work for their own wealth. A verse was revealed about such people, i think it was this: 'And let not those who covetously withhold of the gifts which Allah hath given them of His Grace, think that it is good for them: nay, it will be the worse for them; soon shall the things which they covetously withheld be tied to their necks like a twisted collar on the Day of Judgment.'" (Surah Aal `Imran 2:180).

So you see some people are better off having the little they have, it keeps them humble and aware of Allah, and it is a favor upon them so they may enjoy life in the Hereafter. Otherwise they will be come arrogrant and rebellious like so many we see today, some of these men even go far as calling themselves "god" because their superficial power and wealth.

But if wealthy people who still stick to worship of Allah have more than they can spend more for good deeds and therefore can have more in paradise because they used their wealth to get greater deeds. But the prophet (pbuh) said you say Subhanallah (Glory to be Allah) 33 times , Alhamdulilalh (praise be to Allah) 33x , Allahu Akbar (Allah is Great) 34x then you will have equal in deeds to those who spend their wealth. So you see Allah gives everyone plenty of oppotunities to do good deeds. And Allah protects those whom He loves from going astray or corrupt by holding from them what may drive them into such corrupt paths.

so the story doesn't say it's better to be poor but gives glad tidings to the poor that they will be compensated in the Hereafter for what they are going through this world and tells them to be patient and strive to do good.

As for it being a control theory, well it would be naive of you or anyone else for that matter to think there exists such a system where is no control exist in any form what so ever. If you have no control, rules, guidelines, procedures, laws, then you have chaos. The planets follow laws of nature otherwise we be all destroyed by now. Each society has it's own rules and laws to control the people and govern between acceptable and acceptable behavior. You steal or kill, you go to jail. Islam or religion itself is no supernatural thing that you can use for. Islam is a full system that governs all aspect of life from spirtural to legal to political to every aspect of life. It is not a religion where you show up to a house of worship once a week and be done with it. So just like you have laws in secular states, there also exists such laws in Islam to govern between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Is it control? can you live anywhere without rules and laws? maybe jungle but even that have a law, the law of the jungle!

I'm not tying that story to the "seal on the heart" surah at all myself. I see the Seal on the heart as being a nonspecific sword of damocles which is dangled, not by the threats of the Church, but by the beleivers own guilt. Really you could say anything or do anything and it might set a seal on your heart. Here on the forums , members constantly seek reassurance that they havnt said anything wrong or wonder if they have set a seal on their hearts. It's far far more effective than the Catholic version of "Ok...Well technically i diddnt deny the Holy Ghost, because I said it whilst under duress, and i diddnt really beleive it in my heart...."
Since 1850, the Inquisition (prevention of vice /promotion of virtue)hasnt been about to enforce Gods law for the christians.
Islam has the ultimate sanction with the ultimate authority rather than with the pope.

Imagine that you have a city in a desert with walls all around it. The ruler of the city opens the door and keeps it open for you to come inside. But rather then coming in, you turn around and go away to do whatever you want. The ruler will close the door since you decided not to come in at all. Allah gives guidance to those who seek it, and the seal is put on the heart of those who don't want guidance, who don't seek it, who don't care about it, who WANT to do evil. Was Hitler seeking guidance or power to do his deeds? What about Stalin? what about Pharoh? what about Abu Jahal?

Whose is Abu Jahal? he was a pagan during the Prophet (pbuh) times. He was very very anti-islam and did everything he could against Islam and Muslims (like many kuffars today do). He used to call Mohammad (pbuh) a liar and what not. A verse was revealed stating that Abu Jahal and his wife will be the dwellers of hellfire. Now he could say the sahahada and convert to Islam and disapprove Mohammad (pbuh) and the Quran and Allah by saying that the Quran is wrong, i accepted Islam and will not go to hellfire. So is Mohammad (pbuh) going to take back that verse or be a liar? either way Abu Jahal could prove himself as a winner. But he didn't even take this opportunity, even to lie and convert to prove the Quran wrong. But he did not despite the amount of hatred he had and anti-islam he was. He is a clear example of those who will not be guided because they have chosen to be not saved.

It's really that simple, those who want to be saved, who are seeking the truth and guidance, then Allah will guide them. Those who don't want it, want to do evil and be slaves of their desires and whims and what not then it is a choice they have made it.

Check out

Reflections from Surah Al-Kahf

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5910422918937597456&hl=en

 

[جوري]

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا {54}​

[Shakir 18:54] And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.
[Pickthal 18:54] And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious.

I love this verse.. I can't think of a more perfect description of man's psychology save to sum it up with the term Jadal!

 

[A_Way_Of_Life]

The doors of repentance are always open--
will give you a coupll examples but don't ask me to source them because I am pressed for time

once there was a man so awful committed all vile acts, and felt remorseful so he went to a scholar and asked him will I ever be forgiven.. well the scholar knew there was no chance this man would ever be forgiven for his heinous crimes, so he decided he'd give him a dead vine.. told him, pray fast and ask for forgiveness, and if this vine turns green and alive again, that means your sins are forgiven..

He knew the man would give up, but the man was truly sincere in his repentance, so every day he'd ask forgiveness, pray, fast do good deeds, and one day the vine did turn green..

Another story was of another evil man who had committed all sorts of vile heinous acts, murdered everyone in his way, he also felt remorseful and went to ask a scholar if he'd be forgiven.. well the scholar scoffed, 'you are the most vile of creatures, how can your sins ever be forgiven?'
so the man killed the scholar too, and decided to go on the road to Mecca see if there might be another scholar who would help him, well in his way, he died, no one knew whether he'd be in heaven or hell, but angels were sent down to see the distance he'd crossed for repentance and from Allah swt forgiveness it was measured in his favor ..

Last story was of a man who lived his entire life as a debauchee, and another who lived it in pure religiosity.. well the religious man one day said I don't think that man would ever be forgiven, while the debauchee said, I have committed so much sin why can't I be more like my friend.. and because the religious man transgressed against Allah, by judging who should go to heaven and who to hell, he died on his bad intention, while the debauchee died on his good intention and was forgiven..

Allah a3lam if these stories can be verified by hadith or not? If someone wishes to add, or subtract with sources pls be my guest..

and really the take home message is.. 'So long as there is life, there is hope, and not to transgress against God's mercy-- we are not the ones funneling folks to heaven or hell' it isn't at all a human job, we'd all be better off just worrying about our own souls...

As-Salam-alakum

Thank you very much for the reply. :statisfie

May Allah (Subhanahu wa-ta'ala) bless you!

 

[Malaikah]

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

There will be two men on the Day of Judgement, one will ahve murdered the other. Long story short, God will offer the murdered one XYZ amount of goods/land in Paradise if he forgives the person who murdered him. The person forgives him, and they enter Paradise hand in hand.

So I don't really think your conclusion is all that valid. The only sin that Allah does not forgive is disbelief in Him/associating partners with Him, and even then, they are only unforgiven if a person died in such a state. If he repented while alive he can be forgiven.