Who has made those claims? I don't know of any biologist that has made such a claim.
I would simply like a name, or a journal, or an essay, that would point me to the man or woman that made such a statement.
Go browse the theories out there on the origin of life--abiogenesis, autogeny etc-- the only thing I have done was substitute ' an organic phenomenon by which living organisms are created from nonliving matter' to what it actually means.. a moribund rock devloping arms/legs and later sentience unguided on its own volition!
So we'll just wait around until one of you can demonstrate the above phenomenon or similar theories on the matter of origins with some palpable results to accept that deeply
scientific approach over answers offered by religion!
I'm not sure what you expect. If one sets up a simple dichotomy which allows for a range of possibilities on either side, you state that I am simplifying things too much or artificially limiting the possible answers one could give. If I allow you take the lead and explore your own options, then you don't even acknowledge the original point. If you haven't thought of a question, or thought about a proposition in any one particular way. How long would it take you to maybe try a new avenue. If don't want to, what if anything do you have to add?
I have indeed nothing to add, this is your thread, so far I haven't seen anyone clamoring over your propositions save for your own kin who seem to offer you a cluster of approval though not in any particularly coherent manner.. perhaps your Q's are inwardly flawed a direct product of your own mind and has no basis in anyone else's?... just because you put some words together in question form does it mean, it is actually merits a reply is sensical or to be addressed. It is founded on the low common grounds you've reduced theology to!
And I refuse to bring down an entire doctrine to an electrical impulse that fired across your synapse!
Better yet, when you can't be bothered to follow either approach you feign a lack of interest or state that anyone else's attempts or theories are of no importance or consequence to you.
Your questions having no consequence or are of importance, and manage to rouse a state of disinterest that is actually true- however, I am not seeing, how I have personally forbade anyone else from replying to your questions for my natural response to be received with that gore like reaction... as for following either approach, Why do I have to?
It is as if I were going to a resturant and being offered pork or deep fried strawberries with sherry sauce.. what kind of resturant simply runs on two ingredients and is capable of drawing an ardent following, least of which, if it is smack in the middle of a Muslim neighborhood and is supposed to address a Muslim crowd? -- I imagine if you'd created a better theme, you'll receive more favorable replies?!
Another example of this, was one of your buddies on this very forum posing a questionnaire on why we are Muslims.. questions ranging from , brainwashed, forced on us, born into it, a supernatural experience.. honestly and in the vernacular get a life! If you have a particular mindset and pre-conceived notions as to why things are, you are not interested in a duologue.. then please don't come and act all vexed or surprised when you don't receive the results you were hoping for!
If anything
المؤمن كيّس فطن -
وفي رواية للديلمي عن أنس أيضا بلفظ: المؤمن فطن حذر وقاف، متثبت لا يعجل، عالم ورع، والمنافق همزة لمزة حطمة لا يقف عند شبهة ولا عند محرم كحاطب ليل لا يبالي من أين كسب ولا فيما أنفق، ومثله في التاريخ للبخاري. .
you having apostated and having read the Quran, Hadith as well as a gamut os Islamic literature ad nauseam should know exactly what that means! :smile:
I'm attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt each time. But, you come across as already having found all the answers and when I question anything you take offense. It's not uncommon among the religious types, and when someone says "Okay, why don't we let you ask the questions." then it seems as if there's nothing to talk about.
What is it exactly that you are giving me the benefit of the doubt for? if we are going down that ground, then it is actually not uncommon for the atheist type to probe and mock as if anyone's cognitive capacity or contentedness with their state of being is subject to mockery, ridicule or even question-- as if anyone owes you an explanation? further, I expect that you browse the health/science section to see how your type responds almost pathologically on every thread remotely addressing something in the Quran that is in concert with the sciences, before you come here cast-typing the 'religious character'..
I so hate to repeat myself, whatever 'logic' lead you to disbelieve in God, has led someone else to believe in God. It is a matter of drawing a different conclusion from the same type questions... You'll always be dissatissfied with other people's answers, if internally you can't bring their explanations it into consonance with your own . It has nothing to do with logic or lack thereof.. it just has to do with what theories sound more en vogue!
So what exactly are you doing here, if you have no interest in helping someone genuinely understand an ideology, and what do you have to offer other than veiled insults and links to other works with obvious publication bias.
I am a Muslim on an Islamic forum, I enjoy being here I thought that would be obvious?! one might ask you the same though in rhetoric since you've already given the answer --and I thank you for your refreshing honesty as I believe that you've led us into your own psyche. You have no genuine interest in understanding Islamic ideology, considering your first week of being here, you were only too happy advertising that you'd apostated? religion has been offered you and you have already made up your mind that it isn't for you by virtue of your 'way of life'? You look for every chance to post in a book or school of thought of one of your atheist gods and unashamedly flaunt your Arabic name at the end of every post. What am I to draw from that really short of an overt form of projection?
One has to think that if you had only taken philosophy courses with an interest in learning what logic and reason are you would not be setting up straw men left and right. I hope that compulsory credit was worth the trouble you face on these boards, or you would have come to understand what an atheist is.
an atheist usually represents himherself well. I need not do more as s/he is only too happy leaving his/her offense behind with the usual inane extrapolations and mindless drivel in guide of philosophy. I'll ask you to refrain from feigning to know how I approached my courses philosophy or otherwise!
Don't for a moment think that I presume to be smarter than you, or all the religious types. It's the arrogant assumption that you have all the answers and no one is worthy of questioning them. I would not look down upon you in that manner, and I would hope for the same in return.
lol.. Don't worry I've never presumed such a thing...I don't know that this should merit a reply even? I think it is just your inner child speaking?.. You had carried yourself so well in the previous paragraphs, I was wondering when the pseudo esthete in you would drop the mask.
So what is your point? Are they mutually exclusive? Is your version of Islam not spiritual? Is your version of Islam simply the mundane aspects of living your daily life, or are you making claims about the supernatural or moral truths of the cosmos and feel a connection with an agency you cannot describe in materialist terms?
I never said spirituality and religiosity are mutually exclusive at least not as far as Islam is concerned, I said it is a subset of. Why should I have to abbreviate the major essential elements of religion for the sake of an argument you've posed? when one poses questions one must first have an expectation of what it is, one hopes to gain by asking them? if you are going to ask a leading question or an open/ended question you'll receive a gamut of different responses even if the idea is the same...
My version of Islam is the way of the marjority of practicing sunni Muslims the variations in particular details as pertains the entire doctrine are negligble in the scheme of things and don't see how they would be of benefit to discuss? as an example, If I were to tell you that I personally out of all my family members have dreams of people who die before they drop dead, how would that benefit you? or how is a reflection on Islam or Muslims as opposed to my hindu counterpart that also has dreams of people who die before they die? all one can infer from this, is, there are phenomenons in this world that can't be explained by science, but it isn't an affirmation to a particular religion. It is what it is!
That being said, I don't see us meeting on mutual grounds! this goes back to the original question that you've neglected to answer.. I don't owe you an explanation for my personal beliefs and I am not looking to convert you.. I just rather enjoy nipping in the bud fruitless discussions as they form.. not very unsimilar to what most of you do to Muslims on H&S but I can see I have failed terribly as here we are on page 5!
be that as it may-- Can you prove to yourself that God exists? Yes or NO? descartes did it in his own way, as well millions of others, it has nothing to do with smarts or harboring all the answers and being too stingy to share, it is nothing more than quest sought on a solo journey. As for posting bias material, is that anything like the onslaught of your atheist 'philosophers' as if their word is of biblical importance? ' Do they have all the answers? Perhaps the fact that they write books and push it out into the world for young eager minds like yours to lap up is an answer to that question!...
Have you already reflected on a particular religion and assumed than any future spiritual experiences are a subset or effect of the presumed belief?
I choose the religion that is most logical to me.. one didn't rely too much on mythical creatures, butter statues to be eaten at end of worship/ elephant God, man/God, special sacrifices, chosen people or the anti-climax, but the one with a clear message.. You are here for a reason, fulfill your obligations, obligations made sense from a moral, social stucture, economic/political and spiritual standpoint and seemed to follow from a long line centuries apart all attesting to the same concept without all the derangements!
I'll not discuss the divinity of the Quran with you' if you were to detour us of any other 'universal truths' of similar premise that isn't Islam... There will be things that you've to accept by virtue of being a
believer and yes have faith that Allah swt will reveal those things unto us at some point-- from where I am now, everything that deals with our daily life seems perfect, and even the religious obligations are of major benefit and not imposing.
When you start off an experiment, where you have conducting a controlled testing a serious investigation, double blind, expecting certain outcome based on what you know of science-- 80/90% percent of it is predictable and some of it, is beyond your control or even understanding.
If you start off making a drug to treat anti-fungal organisms and beyond what you know of science or the pharmacology/ pharmacokinetics mechanism of action of the drug itself, 1% of the population acquires a metalic taste when ever they consume cheese, and you can't attribute that to any of the parameters of the drug itself or the way it exerts its action.. it might not make any sense but you accept and believe that, that will happen to a percent of the population and you write that in your findings to be scientifically forthcoming at a risk of being ridiculed by your peers! If 80/90% of what you know of something is true and palpable and makes sense and is of great benefit, then you can accept the 10-20% that are beyond your understanding and hope that at a later time they will become more clear!
Spirituality can go beyond any one doctrine or dogma, but one may not have a religious experience with explicitly Catholic or Muslim effects unless you have already begged the question.
Indeed...If anything, I have always felt that christianity was solely based on spirituality and very little thought-- Again, spirituality to me is a subset, if you can attain it in distilled form, it is great, but Islam is an entire way of life, meant to feed more than just the spiritual. you may browse one of my previous paragraphs where I have touched upon that in more details..
You missed the point altogether. Does one's faith have an effect on the ability to treat a disease. Would the same treatment applied by two different doctors produce different results if the one any only difference in doctor or patient is the particular faith he/she holds. I did not say the doctors or patients are not willing, but does the efficacy of a type of treatment depend on the person's faith? You must have at one point accepted the existence microorganisms as the cause of many illnesses. I don't care if your faith tells you it's god and not that virus/bacteria. Does it change the fact that if the way in which one can be cured is known to exist and is easily applicable then you don't need intercessory prayer or miracles.
Fact of the matter is intercessory prayers are very much a part of medicine, and I have posted a Duke study on the benefits of prayers for the dying pt. it is probably lying some where in health and science if you wish to dig it up...
You need to define for us what a 'miracle' is--- someone might want to see angels hovering over a body and leaving it in a total state of well being as their defintion of a 'miracle'.. for me cancer going into remission is a miracle. Someone diagnosed with small cell ca. and given two months to live and surviving two years is a miracle ( and I have actually seen that happen). There are no absolutes in medicine you make that mistake as most lay people do... Just like your body has a digestive, circulatory nervous systems, biochemical and physiological reactions working in harmony with each other at all times, does it also have an emotional and a spiritual aspect that need to be equally addressed.
Would you prescribe a different vaccine for polio or smallpox for a child because of the religious doctrines of his/her parents, because it is known that certain types of vaccines don't work on, for example, "Jewish" children?
Some vaccines indeed don't work on some children. would I prescribe a different vaccine? currently the indication is to give the vaccine anyway and await the reaction, treat accordingly with supportive measures.
Parents also have the right to withold vaccines so long as it isn't for life and or limb saving treatment based on their religious beliefs! The laws of ethics that govern children aren't the same for consenting adults... but I have no idea where you are going with this one?!
perhaps you should choose examples in a field where you are better versed?
Which part of the statement did you not understand? You don't have to agree with it, but I am sure it was written in English with minimal grammatical errors. Once you understand it, and I will help you, I'm sure it'll be much easier to answer the question that followed.
All the best wishes,
Faysal
There was nothing to understand .. it was a mere reply to your many meaningless attempts to beat the same dead horse.. It is as if I stated 'what a beautiful day, the blue jay is making noise and disturbs all the other birds in the trees, blue Jays are a nuisance they dilapidate the natural habitat and there are more evolved birds that are better for the eco-system like the bul-bul, the macaw, the Cockatoo etc etc.. How would you personally respond to that? There is nothing to be made of it... it is a personal opinion! There is really nothing that requires any form of understanding.. best we can do is offer an OK!
Are we done here?
cheers
