Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?

[czgibson]

Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?

Greetings,

In a way, you have answered your own question. If non-harmful heroin is available then that kind of heroin is not a vice in the first place.

I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

Peace

 

[BlackMamba]

How many times have the same questions been answered over and over. Its to the point now where either you believe or disbelieve because all the facts have been clearly layed out. I think all the kuffar on this thread are being very illogical and hard headed and they need to look at things with an open mind rather that looking to find faults in everything.

 

[Azy]

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

 

[Cabdullahi]

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

You will see things more clearly once you remove this feeling of thinking that islam is all about proving the kuffar wrong all the time infact it only offers help for those who are lost in this wilderness,tricked and blinded to the core.

First and foremost the wine on earth is an intoxicant some of my caucasian friends they say it tastes good and theres nothing better than a can of beer on a hot summers day,listening to this there is obviously some temptation(from the shaytan) but islam teaches me to stay resistant and patient ,if i succesfully do this then i will be eligible to consume wine that doesnt intoxicate me and doesnt make me crazy

Anybody that doesnt even have two brain cells to rub toghether will find this illogical

What some people dont know and this is when alil research will do alot for those who are filled with anger,is that the arabs used to drink alcohol freely and then allah abolished the consume of alcohol,some guys who were dependant on this junk became alittle angry,so therefore allah says stop the alcohol and keep a fresh mind,pray the five times and after you do everything that is ordered from you then you will get you're wine but in heaven and it will not intoxicate you !!! but it will taste so sweet


You refrain from using something dangerous,even though you like it and dont know what harm its doing to you then you will get an alternative thats similar in just the name but content wise there cannot be any comparsions

 

[Azy]

You're just restating the problem, maybe if you read the thread again our questions will make more sense.

 

[Chuck]

Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?

Greetings,



I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

Peace

what is exactly the problem? I don't really see any point except being argumentative. Some might like it and some don't, maybe all would like what they taste in paradise without any kind of problems. That would be a gift from God.

 

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,



I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?


Peace

Hmm. I don't know. But then I guess your follow up would be why call it wine, in which case it's either a metaphor, a literal sense targeted at those who wish to drink wine (say, the arabs at the time of the verses revelation) or it is a type of wine (which we've covered).

...
Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

It is rather clear, precise and comprehensible. The only thing that seems to be confusing people about these verses is the usage of wine - which I've given 3 seperate possibilities for (though, only one has been backed up via a scholar's translation - so I'd put my bet on that one).

 

[Muhammad]

Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?

Greetings,

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

If the wine is not like the wine in this world, and is among the countless things in Paradise that confer endless delight, why wouldn't a Muslim find it appealing?

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

You are going round in circles. Who said that the things in Paradise are comprehensible by all? You said yourself, "In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses". The illogicality arises in not willing to accept such a simple concept.

Regards.

 

[Azy]

Hmm. I don't know. But then I guess your follow up would be why call it wine, in which case it's either a metaphor, a literal sense targeted at those who wish to drink wine (say, the arabs at the time of the verses revelation) or it is a type of wine (which we've covered).

It is rather clear, precise and comprehensible. The only thing that seems to be confusing people about these verses is the usage of wine - which I've given 3 seperate possibilities for (though, only one has been backed up via a scholar's translation - so I'd put my bet on that one).

In your previous post you said:
"This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself."
Forgive me but I just don't see how this sentence makes any sense.
Wine is wine by virtue of the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.
There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice. Better yet, just pick any other name because it's not like anything we know, and it's absolutely nothing like wine so maybe a name that better reflects that?
You might as well say that in Paradise you can eat pork, but it's pork that comes from a chicken and tastes like pineapple.

You are going round in circles. Who said that the things in Paradise are comprehensible by all? You said yourself, "In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses". The illogicality arises in not willing to accept such a simple concept.

I'm not talking about Paradise, I'm talking about the Quran being clear. By the way, if a place that is totally beyond human comprehension and senses is a simple concept then I take my hat off to you

 

[aamirsaab]

In your previous post you said:
"This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself."
Forgive me but I just don't see how this sentence makes any sense.
Wine is wine by virtue of the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.
There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice. Better yet, just pick any other name because it's not like anything we know, and it's absolutely nothing like wine so maybe a name that better reflects that?
You might as well say that in Paradise you can eat pork, but it's pork that comes from a chicken and tastes like pineapple.

I also stated that a scholar views the usage of wine as a metaphor. So I would take his stance over mine. Why it is referred to (in the Quran) as wine may have something to do with the arabic language (or for the reasons I gave previously) - though I cannot comment with certainty as my own view point is merely conjecture based on the english translation of the Quran. I haven't studied the arabic version to the limited extent I have done of the english translation.

 

[Imam]

There is nothing in the verses to be taken as a metaphor,

the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice
.

exactly ,by using the word (khamr) suggests that such wine is a real wine in form but

1-Tasty and a Joy

047.015
YUSUFALI: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord.


2- white,free from the negative effects of world wine(talking in vain ,offenses:

052.023

SHAKIR: They shall pass therein from one to another a cup wherein there

shall be nothing vain nor any sin.

Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.

sure the verses is not talking about fruit-juice , it is a real ,tasty ,white wine,free from negative effects .

قال ابن عباس: في الخمر أربع خصال: السكر، والصداع، والقيء ، والبول، فذكر الله خمر الجنة فنزهها عن هذه الخصال

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I'm not talking about Paradise, I'm talking about the Quran being clear. By the way, if a place that is totally beyond human comprehension and senses is a simple concept then I take my hat off to you

How does making mention of wine that is unlike any wine consumed on earth detract from the Qur'an's clarity? This has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity, rather it seems you have a problem with the concept of two things being very different but sharing the same name. For instance, Allaah (swt) has told us that He has a Hand, but obviously His Hand is unlike the human hand. Does that mean there is a contradiction or lack of clarity? No! This concept is even seen elsewhere, for example, a clock has hands, yet those hands are very different to human hands.

What is the difficulty in accepting a place beyond human comprehension? This is a straightforward description, but I think you are making it difficult for yourself by seeking more details of something that is at the outset beyond imagination and worldly experience.

 

[جوري]

Early Arabs used to drink two alcoholic beverages, one made of Ginger considered 'Hot', and one made with camphor, considered cool.. the prohibition of liquor wasn't complete and abrupt in one stage.. as is stated

• in the verse 2:219
• They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.

So who says No muslim ever knew what an alcoholic beverage is?

surely heaven has that which no eye has seen nor ears have heard, but Allah swt is giving us assimilations of things we can relate too...

as stated prior, if it is denoted in the Quran that there is a place called 'Tasneem' you'd shrug your shoulder pffft? so what?..
unless it is likened to a 'spring' then you can have some mental image of what it might be, though not fully capturing it..

http://books.google.com/books?id=_1...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

hope that helps...

post # 32

Terms like 'mizajoho min tasneem' does denote wine whose very dregs are from the spring (tasneem), or of Musk etc

Most good wines aren't about the alcoholic contents but about the body of flavors that have been aged and linger on the palate.. hence you'd find a description like a sauvignon, is herbaceous with tropical aromas
or a chenin blanc fresh, fragrant with peach aroma medium bodied and fruity..
you can have a look here
http://www.spierrestaurants.co.za/dl/Jonk_wine.pdf

You will not see wine described as chablis ethanol 98%
or cabernet mostly isopropyl ( as illegal as that is) but hope you get the anaology?
because it isn't about the alcohol..
I'd hate to say this, but if you know about wine, then you'll actually get a full appreciation of what it means to have a drink described with dregs in musk or zanjabeel etc.. It is really a very deep description..
and undoubtedly from the mere description there is nothing earthy about it...

post #36
enough said on the subject?

 

[Keltoi]

Just as a personal opinion, and not as a debating point, I find the concept of the Islamic view of Paradise to be the biggest stumbling block for me. Perhaps it is my Christian understanding of Heaven, but I cannot imagine God rewarding people with wine, women, or whatever else is described. Honestly it sounds like a moral paradox. That isn't an attack or anything, just my sincere line of thought on the matter.

 

[جوري]

I don't know what the 'christian concept' is of a reward in heaven, perhaps wondering around like a ghost eternally? be that as it may, it is already said in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

which should lead one to conclude that whatever is mentioned is extremely minor by examining worldy resemblances....

But then, I myself have no understood certain christian concepts, like priesthood, corporal mortification, drinking or eating Jesus in church, so I suppose to each his own!

I'll take heavenly wine over punishing one's own body or depriving it of what it primal when lawful as a spiritual discipline!

peace

 

[Keltoi]

I don't know what the 'christian concept' is of a reward in heaven, perhaps wondering around like a ghost eternally? be that as it may, it is already said in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

which should lead one to conclude that whatever is mentioned is extremely minor by examining worldy resemblances....

But then, I myself have no understood certain christian concepts, like priesthood, corporal mortification, drinking or eating Jesus in church, so I suppose to each his own!

I'll take heavenly wine over punishing one's own body or depriving it of what it primal when lawful as a spiritual discipline!

peace

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

 

[جوري]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

Drinking wine isn't a 'moral issue' which by definition is 'Concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong' it is a mere prohibition.. like 'the apple from the garden' do you think eating apples is morally reprehensible? or do you think that your child taking a cookie from the jar before dinner when you've forbidden him from doing so is evil? Do you think a surgeon scrubbing each surface of his fingers 4 times as opposed to five is immoral? It is nothing more than guidelines the protocols set by which we are to live our lives. Someone might contend that there is no risk for infection if you scrub four times each plane as opposed to four for a total of 25 strokes over 30 if you in turn double glove, but, if you are caught and you'll be caught not following protocols you'll be barred from practice. Same with cookies, apples or even wine!
and I quote the Hadith

That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

Ok!

peace

 

[aadil77]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

I suppose you're reffering to wine in the afterlife, its already been said that wine will not be intoxicating in paradise so you won't be experiencing the same thing, as there is nothing bad/negative in heaven. As for the desires and wants, they will be pure, so nothing dirty.

Again the hereafter is nothing we can imagine, so don't expect yourself to get your head around this one

edit: haven't read the whole thread so may have missed something

 

[Chuck]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

(Allah) Most Gracious!
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man:
He has taught him speech (and intelligence).
The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;
And the herbs and the trees - both (alike) prostrate in adoration.
And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),
In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.
So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.
[Quran 055:1-9]

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

 

[Keltoi]

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

The descriptions of Heaven are rather vague, although what is mentioned over and over again is eternal life in the light of God. To be in the presence of God would be the ultimate gift.

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

There is no promise of "physical" pleasures, only the promise of eternal life and the peace that comes in the presence of God. I suppose that would be the major difference here, and the reason why promises of physical delights, like wine drinking and sexual rewards, seem odd to me. I'm not judging it, only reflecting on the differences between Islam and Christianity on the issue of eternal reward.