Alleged Qu'ran errors/mistakes

[Kt007]

Who can and can't think for themselves is really left up to the reader.
I am still waiting for you to backup what you say with what you claim to know!

I've made myself clear, I think you don't understand. So, I'll leave it at that.

Go back and read my post above on the null hypothesis, and double negatives

No that does not adress my points, at best its a straw-man fallacy.

and when you become familiar a little bit with science and less exasperated can you come & discuss with me 'scientifically' what can be or can't be proven.

I would recommned the same for you, I think you're misconstruing my points, and you think you're refuting me, you're only refuting a figment of your imagination.

& what a golden opportunity - don't you want to prove to everyone how smart you're and how stupid I am.. I am totally up for that.. go ahead and give me the best you got!

Lets not get into this childish stupidity, we are not in high-school.

 

[جوري]

No, you seem to misunderstand, I don't appreciate content being copy and pasted to me, which has nothing to do with what I am actually talking about. Those contents deal with different subject matters. I can copy and past counter arguments to those, but I am not going to do that, since it will only end up in a copy and past war. I am not obliged to answer any of your posts so bear that in mind next time. The Qu'ran is simply wrong, even a Harry Potter book actually makes more sense. believing talking rocks Thats about the zenith of your intellect.

In what way are they not related? The only conclusion I can make of that is that your thought process is extremely linear as they have everything to do with what you've allegedly presented as your own.
The first on the creation of heaven & earth and the scientific view of that one shot. The second addresses your view on what it means to believe in God or not believe in God from a 'scientific' point of view, the third which is in fact authored by me has to do with what it means to 'prove' something scientifically, i.e when we're down to dollars and sense the fourth is challenging you to prove your claims against the prophet of epileptic seizures.
I have not been unjust to you, and notice I haven't so far insulted you personally with go read this or make a post on that by way of sizing you up when frankly it would be very easy for us to do. I don't want to take this thread down to the atheist low common denominator so how about you elevate your dialogue and make it up to par?

 

[Kt007]

My post count isn't going up?

 

[جوري]

I've made myself clear, I think you don't understand. So, I'll leave it at that.

don't understand what? I don't want to descend down to word play- do you or do you not have something of substance to impart per what is presented you, not how you personally feel toward me!

No that does not adress my points, at best its a straw-man fallacy.

I haven't seen points by you so far.
1- you bring a claim against the Quran, and we have refuted that
2- you bring another unoriginal claim about flying monsters and we had a good laugh at that
3- You speak of science as if a spokesperson and I have already shown how we approach things scientifically- I am yet to see you use the scientific method with anything you write.. you know outside of simply asserting!

I would recommned the same for you, I think you're misconstruing my points, and you think you're refuting me, you're only refuting a figment of your imagination.

I take from that, that you finally concede your surrender? Good- you could have spared much web space doing this from the get go!

best,



Lets not get into this childish stupidity, we are not in high-school.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings,

So they were created separately, the earth was created first and then the stars (lamps) were created. Which is wrong scientifically speaking since the sun (lamp) was formed shot time before the earth. And even if you say, well it was simultaneously since it was within the two day time frame then it is still wrong too. There is a gap, the earth was created about 4.5 billion years ago, the oldest star (lamp) in the universe is about 11 billion years old, so that means there is a huge gap of 6.5 billion years which is unaccounted for. Also not to mention Allah is mistaking meteoroids (presumably, because stars are not shooting around) as missiles which are fired against devils. So Allah is using stars (lamps) interchangeable with meteoroids, so this clearly implies a mistake in the understanding of cosmology they thought the stars are small objects when in reality stars are MASSIVE objects, and are no way similar size to meteoroids.

What I stated was that the heaven was completed in the last 2 days as the verse states(41:12). It mentioned the lowest heaven was adorned with lamps ie..stars, now I suggest you read the explanation of this one verse alone if your sincere in learning.

The fact that the Qur'aan is from the creator of you and I, while Science is the discovery/research of man, what he did NOT create, nor owns, only of that which God has created and owns.

Your evidence regards to 'meteroids or the supposed mistakes, please?

Please see sister منوة الخيال previous post for more detailed explanation..#30

How do those verses benefit modern humans?

Well, look at what is being promoted in this day and age and study what the Qur'aan forbids.

Now I haven't read all his other sources.

My point exactly, so how exactly did you come across that hadeeth? Was it after a lot of hard work? or the intention of refuting the faith itself?

 

[Kt007]

In what way are they not related? The only conclusion I can make of that is that your thought process is extremely linear as they have everything to do with what you've allegedly presented as your own.

You're imagining things again.

The first on the creation of heaven & earth and the scientific view of that one shot.

What are you actually talking about? I don't think you even know what you're talking about. That has not been addressed, just saying its been addressed doesn't make it true.

The second addresses your view on what it means to believe in God or not believe in God from a 'scientific' point of view,

And I showed how utterly weak that argument was. Since belief is based on faith, and science is best on evidence and fact. The person who made that blog made a mistake on the understanding of how epistemology works. It is a perfectly valid counter argument to say that what you believe is as silly as one saying you should believe in the FMG forget the FMG we can say for example believe what the Shias say is true, as a Sunni you're not going to believe what the Shia is saying is true, these are subjects of faith, you have faith in your own particular sub ideology of Islam, you can never get two religious folks of different faiths to agree, that is simply the nature of faith, there is no evidence for it, just like there is no evidence for a invisible flying teapot. You have to understand how burden of proof works.

the third which is in fact authored by me has to do with what it means to 'prove' something scientifically, i.e when we're down to dollars and sense the fourth is challenging you to prove your claims against the prophet of epileptic seizures.

Well that was just my opinion, I can't prove Muhammed had epileptic attacks, but I don't think that it's beyond reason.

I have not been unjust to you, and notice I haven't so far insulted you personally with go read this or make a post on that by way of sizing you up when frankly it would be very easy for us to do. I don't want to take this thread down to the atheist low common denominator so how about you elevate your dialogue and make it up to par?

I think you started insulting me since yesterday, but lets leave subjects of 'feelings' out since these are completely subjective arguments. You can find me saying Islam isn't true as an insult to you personally, so lets leave these kinds of subjects out. If I've insulted you personally then I apologize, I want to learn the TRUTH and if I find truth in Islam, I would be the first person to retake my shahada and come back to Islam. Actually I was finding some of the responses really good, but then you started doing copy and pastes.

 

[Kt007]

don't understand what? I don't want to descend down to word play- do you or do you not have something of substance to impart per what is presented you, not how you personally feel toward me!




I haven't seen points by you so far.
1- you bring a claim against the quran, and we have refuted that
2- you bring another unoriginal claim about flying monsters and we had a good laugh at that
3- you speak of science as if a spokesperson and i have already shown how we approach things scientifically- i am yet to see you use the scientific method with anything you write.. You know outside of simply asserting!



I take from that, that you finally concede your surrender? Good- you could have spared much web space doing this from the get go!

Best,



lets not get into this childish stupidity, we are not in high-school.

[/quote]

OK, I'll say I have surrendered if that makes you happy, since this conversation I am having with you isn't going anywhere.

I still don't feel my points have been addressed accurately.

 

[Hulk]

Oh is there an issue with "science" and "religion" being opposites?

Religion in essence is the belief that the universe has a Creator. Science is the study of the universe. To say that Science and Religion are opposites is like saying a Macbook factory and a Macbook manual are opposites. It make's no sense does it? Yet some of these people think themselves so "intelligent".

That said, the question that comes to mind is whether or not this defense is Islam-Specific. I say this because when the person who make such false statements I doubt that when he thinks of religion he thinks of Islam, or if he is then he probably has insufficient knowledge on it. I imagine that their idea of religion is as so popularly imagined "an invisible man in the sky", such a sad case of intellectual laziness.

Anyway.. this is just a copy/paste from a thread I started months ago. I don't really like entertaining people who come on here wanting to "debate". Lots of ego involved which definitely shuts out reasoning imo.

 

[جوري]

You're imagining things again.

Imagining what? I don't like fragments and if this is the way you'll waste board space then might as well just leave the forum. I don't like my time wasted!

What are you actually talking about? I don't think you even know what you're talking about. That has not been addressed, just saying its been addressed doesn't make it true.

Which portions were hard for you to understand? You can't read Quran? or don't understand statistics or don't see a flaw in using the rehashed argument of spaghetti monsters?

And I showed how utterly weak that argument was. Since belief is based on faith, and science is best on evidence and fact. The person who made that blog made a mistake on the understanding of how epistemology works. It is a perfectly valid counter argument to say that what you believe is as silly as one saying you should believe in the FMG forget the FMG we can say for example believe what the Shias say is true, as a Sunni you're not going to believe what the Shia is saying is true, these are subjects of faith, you have faith in your own particular sub ideology of Islam, you can never get two religious folks of different faiths to agree, that is simply the nature of faith, there is no evidence for it, just like there is no evidence for a invisible flying teapot. You have to understand how burden of proof works.

You've shown nothing other than your ability to parrot what other indoctrinated atheists parrot. Use science to prove that God doesn't exist then and then use that same science to refute the Quran!
The whole argument with sunni and shia or which religion is irrelevant here and a complete non-sequitur. There's no point in discussing for instance ambiguous genitalia with someone who can't even fathom what this has to do with cholesterol.

Well that was just my opinion, I can't prove Muhammed had epileptic attacks, but I don't think that it's beyond reason.

then it is incumbent upon you to prove it and showcase what that means in the scheme of things all together.. because when it comes to not knowing what you're talking about, you're a poster child!

I think you started insulting me since yesterday, but lets leave subjects of 'feelings' out since these are completely subjective arguments. You can find me saying Islam isn't true as an insult to you personally, so lets leave these kinds of subjects out. If I've insulted you personally then I apologize, I want to learn the TRUTH and if I find truth in Islam, I would be the first person to retake my shahada and come back to Islam. Actually I was finding some of the responses really good, but then you started doing copy and pastes.

In what way have I insulted you? and let me get one thing clear here.
I am not interested in you accepting Islam or shahada- it doesn't aggrieve me one way or the other and everyone here will attest to that- what concerns me is you spreading fallacious, and false claims against Islam, Muslims, the prophet, the noble Quran on an Islamic forum without backing it up.

best,

 

[جوري]

OK, I'll say I have surrendered if that makes you happy, since this conversation I am having with you isn't going anywhere.

I still don't feel my points have been addressed accurately.

Not liking the responses you're receiving and being addressed accurately are two separate issues. I think you've been amply accommodated, refuted even humored. Like I said I don't wish to descend down to word play. If you have solid arguments then bring them and we'll do our best with what you bring. But don't assume, condescend, insult, waste web space and member time- I don't think anyone will take kindly to that!

 

[Kt007]

Greetings,

What I stated was that the heaven was completed in the last 2 days as the verse states(41:12). It mentioned the lowest heaven was adorned with lamps ie..stars, now I suggest you read the explanation of this one verse alone if your sincere in learning.

Could you provide an explanation, I am really having trouble understanding this.

The fact that the Qur'aan is from the creator of you and I, while Science is the discovery/research of man, what he did NOT create, nor owns, only of that which God has created and owns.

But how do I know Allah created me, you said creator of you and I, we have a pretty good understanding of who humans came about. I am just not convinced about the creation in the Qu'ran.

Your evidence regards to 'meteroids or the supposed mistakes, please?

So what else are the missiles thrown at devils, so who is throwing these shinning missiles at devils, is Allah sitting up there throwing around missiles? ^o)

Please see sister منوة الخيال previous post for more detailed explanation..#30

Yeah I wasn't convinced by her responses, in fact it just reinforced my own ideas. Your responses have been far more penetrative, and convincing, at least they seems to be genuine, and not an attempt at obscurantism, so I really respect that very much.

Well, look at what is being promoted in this day and age and study what the Qur'aan forbids.

Right, but those older verses are still in the Qu'ran though are they just in there as part of a story or as a rule?

My point exactly, so how exactly did you come across that hadeeth? Was it after a lot of hard work? or the intention of refuting the faith itself?

I cam across it a long time ago when I was a Muslim, I was debating with a non-Muslim and he mentioned it, coincidently that person was also an Ex-Muslim I hated his guts, so I thought he was making it up, so I made sure to check if he was telling the truth, it turned out he was and it was in the hadith, my argument then as a Muslim was, that those hadith are unreliable.


Masalaam.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Ask, that is what I am doing here right, I am asking. I've asked scholars before too.

Interesting, what did you ask them scholars? Do you have names in particular?

We know air exists, because we can prove it. The key point being proof.

So who created this earth? Who created humanity? all that is in existence? Science has proves much of what is created.

You can't believe in something without proof is my point, I am not convinced about the proof of Islam.

That's true, but not all in cases. Again i'm not here to convince you. It takes one to believe.

Well Allah thinks it s a crime, if not believe in Allah wasn't a crime then why would he punish you for not believe in him? So, can you imagine, that is like me saying to you, that If you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster then you'll be punished for eternity, you're going to laugh right, since you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster. To say Abu Talib didn't believe in Islam despite him knowing it was true, is just a Muslim narrative i.e. a spin on the story, there is no other option for a person to say anything but that to justify it.

No Allaah doesn't think it's a crime, you speak without understanding!

Study the Qur'aan and acknowledge what Allaah is stating many times and whose he referring to. Kafir -one who Covers the truth.

Are you one covering the truth? I do not know, what I do know is your understanding lacks very much, but what I do ask you is that what is your purpose in life, do you know?Who created you and this world you live in? created out of nothing and turn to nothing? If this what your belief is, i only disagree.

Whose arguing free will here? He chose to believe in that of his forefathers, though he loved his nephew (Muhammad (saw), why do you think Muhammad (P) spent all his life inviting people to Islam? Whose choice is it to accept? Did he force those he did invite, of course not. It IS YOUR will whether you want to either study Islam and understand each and every purpose, the purpose behind it etc etc, or just ignore all i've said and continue your life as it is. Also did not state Abu talib believed Islam being the truth, if that was the case he would been a muslim. He loved his nephew and gave him his rights as an uncle. If i'm incorrect, feel free to correct me on that.

Again, if you do not accept Islam as truth, that is your choice entirely, doesn't affect me. If you feel Islam isn't for you, that's fine with me.

 

[Muhammad]

Kt007,

It was my opinion, since that is very hard to prove weather he had temporal lope epilepsy or not.

Indeed, it is very difficult to prove, hence one wonders why you hold such an opinion in the first place.

I am sorry, but this is so non-scientific any silly that is is beyond addressing, it's going into the realms of the supernatural.

Of course we are dealing with the supernatural; we are discussing revelation from God to a human being. My post mentions accounts of those who actually witnessed revelation coming down to the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him), and that the claim of epilepsy is sheer ignorance of the reality. Why did you ignore these points and instead attack the article for mentioning Satan, or bring in the issue of Israa wal Mi'raj. I am disappointed as I thought you were actually here for a discussion.

Please be warned that comments such as those in your post against Islam, Muslims and the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will not be tolerated on this forum.

 

[Kt007]

Oh is there an issue with "science" and "religion" being opposites?

Religion in essence is the belief that the universe has a Creator. Science is the study of the universe. To say that Science and Religion are opposites is like saying a Macbook factory and a Macbook manual are opposites. It make's no sense does it? Yet some of these people think themselves so "intelligent".

That said, the question that comes to mind is whether or not this defense is Islam-Specific. I say this because when the person who make such false statements I doubt that when he thinks of religion he thinks of Islam, or if he is then he probably has insufficient knowledge on it. I imagine that their idea of religion is as so popularly imagined "an invisible man in the sky", such a sad case of intellectual laziness.

Anyway.. this is just a copy/paste from a thread I started months ago. I don't really like entertaining people who come on here wanting to "debate". Lots of ego involved which definitely shuts out reasoning imo.

Salaam brother,

You see science deals with the natural world, while religion deals with the supernatural, i.e. things which are beyond the scope of science. So in essence these two subjects are separate. This is why some scholars never say Islam proves modern science, new the shift is towards saying that Islam does not negate modern science, I have read the works of a leading Islamic writer named Hamza Tzortzis and he constantly states that Islam doesn't negate modern science, though I have refuted Mr. Tzortzis, main argument i.e. the kalam cosmological argument.

 

[جوري]

You see science deals with the natural world, while religion deals with the supernatural, i.e. things which are beyond the scope of science. So in essence these two subjects are separate. This is why some scholars never say Islam proves modern science, new the shift is towards saying that Islam does not negate modern science, I have read the works of a leading Islamic writer named Hamza Tzortzis and he constantly states that Islam doesn't negate modern science, though I have refuted Mr. Tzortzis, main argument i.e. the kalam cosmological argument.

That's incorrect!
Islam is an entire way of life, it covers every aspect of man's life and his spiritual life. That is a complete system of politics, economics, social structure, philosophy,linguistics, ideology, inheritance and jurisprudence!
Even the mathematics of the Quran is taught in universities see here:
http://www.deltacollege.edu/dept/basicmath/Islamic.htm

so where do you get off speaking of natural vs. super natural? Some things can't be proven that's true but they can also not be disproved and that's where my post on the "null hypothesis' comes in. I really wish you'd stop making baseless statements with such authority without backing them up and as it is obvious you've very minimal knowledge of Islam as is!

best,

 

[Kt007]

I need to take a little break for a while. I can't promise when I'll be back though. Possibly tonight or maybe tomorrow evening, I am working on a project so it depends when I am able to complete the project. But do continue to post responses, I will read them and inshallah get back to you guys.

Masalaam.

 

[Kt007]

oops I mean hopefully not inshallah! that's not a Freudian slip.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Could you provide an explanation, I am really having trouble understanding this.

Do you not know the heavens and earth were created in 6 days alltogether? in accordance to Qur'aan.

But how do I know Allah created me, you said creator of you and I, we have a pretty good understanding of who humans came about. I am just not convinced about the creation in the Qu'ran.

How do YOU believe we came about?

The verses in the Qur'aan are clear, to agree or disagree is the readers choice.

Surah Al Alaq, and many more chapters.

So what else are the missiles thrown at devils, so who is throwing these shinning missiles at devils, is Allah sitting up there throwing around missiles?

I asked for evidence that's all, regarding meteroids and the mistakes.

And why does this bother you? I assume you do not believe in 'devils'..

Instead of saying things the way you have, perhaps you could've shown more respect, since you was a 'muslim' at some point in the life of yours.

Yeah I wasn't convinced by her responses.

I suggest you read the sister's response if you've not, inshaa'Allaah

Right, but those older verses are still in the Qu'ran though are they just in there as part of a story or as a rule?

Which older versions? I'll let you explain..

I cam across it a long time ago when I was a Muslim, I was debating with a non-Muslim and he mentioned it, coincidently that person was also an Ex-Muslim I hated his guts, so I thought he was making it up, so I made sure to check if he was telling the truth, it turned out he was and it was in the hadith, my argument then as a Muslim was, that those hadith are unreliable.

So was you debating a scholar of Islaam? any individual does not count.

I'm not going to get into whether the hadeeth is reliable or not, as i'd rather let those knowledgeable position answer, you know I don't want to be responding to something I do not know zero about. I wouldn't go operate on a patient knowing zero about what type of patient i'm dealing with. So by what authority did you conclude the hadeeth to be unreliable? By yours or one whose studied enough to know of it's content, context and authencity?

 

[Perseveranze]

Well that was just my opinion, I can't prove Muhammed had epileptic attacks, but I don't think that it's beyond reason.

Actually, it is if you don't want to reject a lot of facts and nit pick scriptural evidence.

Salaam.




It was my opinion, since that is very hard to prove weather he had temporal lope epilepsy or not.

Just so you know, it's an extremely minority opinion. Most Academics (western here) don't believe this theory. I think I already mentioned one of the great neurologists Owsei Temkin (I mention him by name because of his Academic credentials in the field surpasses others who have written on the subject) dispel the claim due to lack of evidence in his book The Falling Sickness: A History of Epilepsy from the Greeks to the Beginnings of Modern Neurology. He also said this claim was held was due to it originating from a Greek scholar (Theophanes) in the medevil period.

And from a psychological perspective, Tor Andrae (I mention tor for the same reason I mention Owsei) does the best refutation against the claim of being a mad man.

Also, Watt (who is the most Academically referenced Historian on Islam) concludes;

---

"It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been." - W.Montgomery Watt, Richard Bell. "Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an"(1995) Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-0597-5, pp 17-18;

---

Everyone's entitled to their opinion I guess, regardless of how weak it is

 

[Hulk]

Salaam brother,

You see science deals with the natural world, while religion deals with the supernatural, i.e. things which are beyond the scope of science. So in essence these two subjects are separate. This is why some scholars never say Islam proves modern science, now the shift is towards saying that Islam does not negate modern science, I have read the works of a leading Islamic writer named Hamza Tzortzis and he constantly states that Islam doesn't negate modern science, though I have refuted Mr. Tzortzis, main argument i.e. the kalam cosmological argument.

Basically, science is the study of everything in existence. Right? I'm sure you'd agree to that. Yes, you can say that "science" and "religion" are separate subjects and I would agree with that but they are not opposite which is what seems to be the theme. I'm not trying to use "science" to prove the Quran. To me, all that is needed is simple logic.

The problem with the understanding of science is that it has come down to the only things that exist are the things that you can experience with at least one of your five senses. If you can't experience something with at least one of your five senses then it doesn't exist. That said, there are plenty of things that we cannot actually experience with our limited senses which we require external help. Take bacteria for example, we know it exists yet we can't actually sense it with any of our five sense unless we use something like a microscope. Does that mean that before the invention of the microscope, bacteria didn't exist? Of course not.

As a muslim, I believe that there are things beyond the scope of what my five senses can experience. Like I said in my previous post, the proof of a Creator is the creation. If you find a watch in the middle of a desert you can deduce that there is indeed a watch manufacturer, factory, designer, etc. Even if I can't perceive the watch manufacturer/factory/designer/etc with any of my five sense I can still come to a conclusion that it is indeed there.